100543 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

I don't know that that is actually true, though. The Masked Empire featured a dalish clan that cared precisely nothing for city elves, considering them human-tainted beyond help, to the point of not considering them elves anymore. Their keeper gave the impression that clans who feel differently, like the ones featured in Origins and DA2, are in the minority.

 

I'm having a great deal of trouble trying to understand how you continue to cite this single clan - Clan Virnehn, who don't even adhere to the traditions of the People and went against the ethos of the Dalish, who prohibit the use of magic that involves spirits, as they view all spirits as dangerous - and act as though all the other clans we have encountered or heard about are instead the "minority". Aneirin was rescued by Zathrian's clan, Lanaya was given a place among the Dalish and even permitted to compete for the role of First, Pol was welcomed into the Sabrae Clan, an elven Circle mage was welcomed into Ariane's clan.

 

How exactly are all these clans a "minority" while the single clan who collectively violated the tenants of the Dalish is an example of the majority in your eyes?

[Former_Fiend]

I'm having a great deal of trouble trying to understand how you continue to cite this single clan - Clan Virnehn, who don't even adhere to the traditions of the People and went against the ethos of the Dalish, who prohibit the use of magic that involves spirits, as they view all spirits as dangerous - and act as though all the other clans we have encountered or heard about are instead the "minority". Aneirin was rescued by Zathrian's clan, Lanaya was given a place among the Dalish and even permitted to compete for the role of First, Pol was welcomed into the Sabrae Clan, an elven Circle mage was welcomed into Ariane's clan.

 

How exactly are all these clans a "minority" while the single clan who collectively violated the tenants of the Dalish is an example of the majority in your eyes?

 

The answer to that is a rather meta one.

 

Essentially, I believe that the meta purpose of Clan Virnehn was to dismiss or otherwise cast doubts on some of the more romantic, for lack of a better word, ideas the fandom had regarding the dalish and their place as a haven for city elves to run off to.

 

That's the short of it, at any rate.

 

For what it's worth, I'm not saying that this is objective, concrete fact. I just think it's a shadow of doubt to be cast on previous preconceptions and conclusions.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't know that that is actually true, though. The Masked Empire featured a dalish clan that cared precisely nothing for city elves, considering them human-tainted beyond help, to the point of not considering them elves anymore. Their keeper gave the impression that clans who feel differently, like the ones featured in Origins and DA2, are in the minority.

 

I didn't get that impression really. The Keeper can really only speak for his own clan. And most of them aren't anywhere nearby.

[MisterJB]

The answer to that is a rather meta one.

 

Essentially, I believe that the meta purpose of Clan Virnehn was to dismiss or otherwise cast doubts on some of the more romantic, for lack of a better word, ideas the fandom had regarding the dalish and their place as a haven for city elves to run off to.

 

That's the short of it, at any rate.

 

For what it's worth, I'm not saying that this is objective, concrete fact. I just think it's a shadow of doubt to be cast on previous preconceptions and conclusions.

I believe you are correct. From a meta viewpoint, it is entirely possible the writers hadn't entirely fleshed out how the Dalish are and behave and instead had them behave in a way that was expected of them such as being welcoming of City Elves.

Now that their story became a major element in a book and, possibly, in future games, they are adding elements we didn't previously expect.

 

The same ocurred with the Templar Order and the mages who were much more fleshed out in DA2 than they were in DAO. I can't say if clans like the Virnehn are in the majority or minority but I think we should pay attention to DA's most recently released product for clues on what the Dalish truly are.

[KC_Prototype]

Pfft if she does then I really am going to be forever alone in this game.  I don't get that impression though.

You guys don't like the Dalish?

[jlb524]

You don't think it's possible her being an elf - heck, one of the city elves - could have been what influenced her to empathize with "all the poor/common folk" and not the other way around?

 

Elves are collectively one of the poorest and most disenfranchised non-magic folk in human societies. Short of being raised by humans and somehow sheltered from the fact that she is, in fact, an elf (Sera: "WHAT???!!"), I can't see how being elven, being raised among elves (or at least elven parents), receiving prejudice for her race and seeing people like her receiving similar treatment would be completely incidental and secondary. I don't see how she would just think "oh, common folk everywhere" first and lump elves in second, not the other way around.

 

I still think it's the other way around.  

 

Sera's not an elven revolutionary though and from what we know about her so far 'the elf issue' isn't what's motivating her character.  This would be attributed to someone like Briala who, funny enough, lived among the wealthy.  I would say that Briala empathizes with the poor city elves b/c she is an elf and not b/c she has experience with living in poverty.

 

In my opinion, poor humans don't have it much better than the poor elves.  I'm not saying that 'being an elf' doesn't mean anything to Sera.   Most humans look down upon her for being an elf and that would affect her ofc.  It still seems as if her primary concern is, well, having fun but then sticking up for the little guy/gal.

[Former_Fiend]

I believe you are correct. From a meta viewpoint, it is entirely possible the writers hadn't entirely fleshed out how the Dalish are and behave and instead had them behave in a way that was expected of them such as being welcoming of City Elves.

Now that their story became a major element in a book and, possibly, in future games, they are adding elements we didn't previously expect.

 

The same ocurred with the Templar Order and the mages who were much more fleshed out in DA2 than they were in DAO. I can't say if clans like the Virnehn are in the majority or minority but I think we should pay attention to DA's most recently released product for clues on what the Dalish truly are.

 

Another thing about TME that lead me to this conclusion is Felassan, who didn't have a single positive thing to say about the dalish throughout the book. A large part of his role was de-mystifying the dalish and the ancient elves.

[HeyCal]

And I proceed to try and like everything lobselvith posts, since I agree with everything they are saying.

As much as I love the Dalish, is this really something to argue about in Sera's thread? We've had conflicting views on how the city elves respond to he Dalish. It tends to change between each city, in Denerim they were mostly afraid of them, while in Orlais and Kirkwall, they admired them greatly and saw them as superior(?) for being free from the human's oppressions.

I assume how Sera sees an elf inquisitor would largely depend on what region she joins us in.

[MisterJB]

Honestly, if the Dalish are going to renegate on all City Elves as "hopelessly tainted", then they are idiots.

The Virnehn clan had around 50 members. I can't imagine other clans go much above that. Maybe there is an exceptional one in the low hundreds.

Val-Royeaux alone has 10000 city elves. Demographically speaking, they are the elven race's only hope.

[Former_Fiend]

Honestly, if the Dalish are going to renegate on all City Elves as "hopelessly tainted", then they are idiots.

The Virnehn clan had around 50 members. I can't imagine other clans go much above that. Maybe there is an exceptional one in the low hundreds.

Val-Royeaux alone has 10000 city elves. Demographically speaking, they are the elven race's only hope.

 

On the other hand, low numbers is one of the main reasons why the dalish can survive the way the do. They draw less attention, they have less mouths to feed, everyone in the clan contributes. 

 

I can't imagine very many city elves have skill sets that would be of any use to the dalish. Most of them are unskilled laborers. Most of the skilled craftsmen among them craft things that are of no use out in the wilderness. Even the ones with more practical skills in stealth and combat are skilled at fighting in back allies and city streets; while game mechanics rarely show this, that's a very different beast from fighting in the forest. 

[Fiery Phoenix]

You don't think it's possible her being an elf - heck, one of the city elves - could have been what influenced her to empathize with "all the poor/common folk" and not the other way around?

 

Elves are collectively one of the poorest and most disenfranchised non-magic folk in human societies. Short of being raised by humans and somehow sheltered from the fact that she is, in fact, an elf (Sera: "WHAT???!!"), I can't see how being elven, being raised among elves (or at least elven parents), receiving prejudice for her race and seeing people like her receiving similar treatment would be completely incidental and secondary. I don't see how she would just think "oh, common folk everywhere" first and lump elves in second, not the other way around.

Think of it this way: Sera has different priorities. Whether that's a 'good' or a 'bad' thing is another can of worms entirely, but it's how I see it given what we know of Sera so far.

 

She doesn't deny the fact that she is an elf. At the same time, it isn't what is incentivizing her, nor is it her primary concern.

 

That's why I said she strikes me as the type that follows her head rather than her heart.

[jlb524]

I can't imagine very many city elves have skill sets that would be of any use to the dalish. Most of them are unskilled laborers. Most of the skilled craftsmen among them craft things that are of no use out in the wilderness. Even the ones with more practical skills in stealth and combat are skilled at fighting in back allies and city streets; while game mechanics rarely show this, that's a very different beast from fighting in the forest. 

 

They would have to learn all this.

 

I think this is why Pol didn't have vallaslin in spite of physically being an adult...he was still learning the ropes and hadn't earned them yet.

[Former_Fiend]

 

They would have to learn all this.

 

I think this is why Pol didn't have vallaslin in spite of physically being an adult...he was still learning the ropes and hadn't earned them yet.

 

 

I wouldn't consider it an entirely unreasonable position if a clan decided many or most city elves weren't worth teaching and decided not to accept someone who would amount to dead weight.

 

Harsh, but not entirely unreasonable. 

[jlb524]

I wouldn't consider it an entirely unreasonable position if a clan decided many or most city elves weren't worth teaching and decided not to accept someone who would amount to dead weight.

 

Harsh, but not entirely unreasonable. 

 

It's possible but I still think that goes against the general Dalish beliefs.

 

The Dalish believe their gods abandoned them and will only return when they can show that the elves haven't lost their way.  I would imagine they feel that bringing as many city elves over to their way is ideal and a step closer to obtaining that.

[wickedgoodreed]

Another thing about TME that lead me to this conclusion is Felassan, who didn't have a single positive thing to say about the dalish throughout the book. A large part of his role was de-mystifying the dalish and the ancient elves.

Spoiler

Pretty much everything Felassan says is directed at Briala, who he has been carefully manipulating for twenty years in the name of his master. And his master is implied to be one of the big bads in Inquisition. So, Felassan is not really one to look towards for an impartial viewpoint.

 

I think it's more likely that Felassan led Briala to the Virnehn clan, specifically, precisely because he wanted drive a wedge between her and the Dalish. Presumably, elves putting on a unified front would work against the chaos his master wants to sow.

 

Think of it this way: Sera has different priorities. Whether that's a 'good' or a 'bad' thing is another can of worms entirely, but it's how I see it given what we know of Sera so far.

 

She doesn't deny the fact that she is an elf. At the same time, it isn't what is incentivizing her, nor is it her primary concern.

 

That's why I said she strikes me as the type that follows her head rather than her heart.

I agree that Sera probably doesn't place as much importance on being an elf as your typical Dalish elf would. But Sera strikes me as the extremely impulsive type, which would suggest she's much more likely to follow her heart, imo.

[Former_Fiend]

It's possible but I still think that goes against the general Dalish beliefs.

 

The Dalish believe their gods abandoned them and will only return when they can show that the elves haven't lost their way.  I would imagine they feel that bringing as many city elves over to their way is ideal and a step closer to obtaining that.

 

I believe that some dalish believe that. 

[Milan92]

Honestly, if the Dalish are going to renegate on all City Elves as "hopelessly tainted", then they are idiots.

The Virnehn clan had around 50 members. I can't imagine other clans go much above that. Maybe there is an exceptional one in the low hundreds.

Val-Royeaux alone has 10000 city elves. Demographically speaking, they are the elven race's only hope.

 

And yet the Dalish view them as lesser beigns of their race. So much for saving it, I guess.

[Former_Fiend]

Spoiler

Pretty much everything Felassan says is directed at Briala, who he has been carefully manipulating for twenty years in the name of his master. And his master is implied to be one of the big bads in Inquisition. So, Felassan is not really one to look towards for an impartial viewpoint.

 

I think it's more likely that Felassan led Briala to the Virnehn clan, specifically, precisely because he wanted drive a wedge between her and the Dalish. Presumably, elves putting on a unified front would work against the chaos his master wants to sow.

 

 

Valid point; he isn't a particularly reliable source. Could go either way.

[Grieving Natashina]

Thanks for posting about this guys.  I'm sitting here absorbing every post and I feel like I'm learning where Sera could be coming from.  I'm not going to assume anything of course, but the perspectives are quite welcome.  

[LobselVith8]

The answer to that is a rather meta one.

 

Essentially, I believe that the meta purpose of Clan Virnehn was to dismiss or otherwise cast doubts on some of the more romantic, for lack of a better word, ideas the fandom had regarding the dalish and their place as a haven for city elves to run off to.

 

Except the author specifically had Clan Virnehn violate the fundamental rules of the Dalish, which illustrates the clan as atypical, not the norm. Merrill says all spirits are dangerous, and this view is echoed in the World of Thedas, where it's specified the Dalish don't even use magic that involves spirits because they view all spirits as dangerous. From Dragon Age II to World of Thedas (which includes some information about Inquisition), there is a consistent cultural and religious view for the Dalish, and how they behave, which isn't consistent with the single clan in "The Masked Empire."

 

Given how we have numerous examples of the Dalish willing to help out city elves, even a young boy like Aneirin who they simply stumbled across, I see nothing to support the idea that Clan Virnehn is intended to illustrate the behavior of most of the clans.

 

For what it's worth, I'm not saying that this is objective, concrete fact. I just think it's a shadow of doubt to be cast on previous preconceptions and conclusions.

 

I understand. I simply disagree with it in it's entirety. If Sera heard terrible things about the Dalish because of Clan Virnehn, or Briala assumed Clan Virnehn exemplified most Dalish, I'd fully expect my elven Inquisitor to exhibit bewilderment and confusion.

[MisterJB]

On the other hand, low numbers is one of the main reasons why the dalish can survive the way the do. They draw less attention, they have less mouths to feed, everyone in the clan contributes. 

 

I can't imagine very many city elves have skill sets that would be of any use to the dalish. Most of them are unskilled laborers. Most of the skilled craftsmen among them craft things that are of no use out in the wilderness. Even the ones with more practical skills in stealth and combat are skilled at fighting in back allies and city streets; while game mechanics rarely show this, that's a very different beast from fighting in the forest. 

All true but, ultimately, if the Dalish want a future beyond wandering around forests while the humans grow and expand until there are no more forests, they need the city elves.

[Former_Fiend]

Nothing they do violates the tradition in and of itself; they treat Imshael as an extremely dangerous entity, which he is. They keep him trapped and underguard. 

 

What's "atypical" is their keeper is arrogant enough to believe he can deal with Imshael successfully. Given Zathrian's summoning of Witherfang and Marethari's handling of Audacity, I'm not sure that behavior is entirely atypical at all. 

[Former_Fiend]

All true but, ultimately, if the Dalish want a future beyond wandering around forests while the humans grow and expand until there are no more forests, they need the city elves.

 

Also true, but the dalish by and large don't seem to acknowledge, believe, or accept this.

 

And I think that's part of the point; that the dalish don't offer any sort of real future for their people beyond just wandering around in wagons pulled by deer.

[LobselVith8]

Nothing they do violates the tradition in and of itself; they treat Imshael as an extremely dangerous entity, which he is. They keep him trapped and underguard. 

 

Using magic that involves spirits is simply one example of Clan Virnehn violating tradition. "Unlike other spellcasters, Dalish mages do not use any magic involving spirits, as they believe all spirits are dangerous." (page 104 of WoT)

 

What's "atypical" is their keeper is arrogant enough to believe he can deal with Imshael successfully. Given Zathrian's summoning of Witherfang and Marethari's handling of Audacity, I'm not sure that behavior is entirely atypical at all. 

 

Zathrian acted without the knowledge of the rest of his clan, and Marethari released a spirit that had been summoned and trapped during the war with Arlathan. Your line of reasoning is no different than if I argued that it isn't atypical that templars are rapists because Karras and Alrik engaged in such behavior.