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Sera "The Artful Dodger" discussion thread - V2 (now with more V1)

Débuté par Grieving Natashina , mars 23 2014 10:53

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#79576
Guest_John Wayne_*
Posté 04 mars 2015 - 03:26

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QFT, I love badass woman warriors that don't take **** from anybody.

I'm not going to lie, the first time I seen her, it was pretty much this:

 

 

I thought Jack would've been a much better romance if it didn't operate on the idea that abuse victims need the D to help them overcome past traumas. The difference between a romanced Jack and an unromanced Jack is kind of stark, to the point where her personality shift between ME2 and ME3 is a bit much in the third game unless she was romanced. Unromanced Jack is still basically a b*tchy murderer at the end of ME2 - to jump from that to being a relatively low-key teacher and mentor over the course of six months is kind of a huge deal.

Yea, that could have handled that a lot better for sure.


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#79577
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 04 mars 2015 - 03:27

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I thought Jack would've been a much better romance if it didn't operate on the idea that abuse victims need the D to help them overcome past traumas. The difference between a romanced Jack and an unromanced Jack is kind of stark, to the point where her personality shift between ME2 and ME3 is a bit much in the third game unless she was romanced. Unromanced Jack is still basically a b*tchy murderer at the end of ME2 - to jump from that to being a relatively low-key teacher and mentor over the course of six months is kind of a huge deal.

 

I think the "needing the D" thing is overstated. It's love (more or less). It's only about the D if you hook up with her as a one night stand thing. In which case, it doesn't do a thing for her. But if you're actually sincere, it's far more than sex. It's not even about that. The dialogue between them is some of better the romance stuff they've done.


#79578
Aimi
Posté 04 mars 2015 - 03:32

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I think the "needing the D" thing is overstated. It's love. It's only about the D if you hook up with her as a one night stand thing. In which case, it doesn't do a thing for her. But if you're actually sincere, it's far more than sex. It's not even about that. The dialogue between them is some of the romance stuff they've done.


You're comparing "renegade one-night stand option" with the full Jack romance. I'm comparing the full Jack romance to Jack not being romanced at all.

She repeatedly says that she's not interested in friendships, pushes away anybody who tries to help her, and only seems to 'get better' if the player happens to be a dude with whom she can have cuddly fun times.

#79579
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 04 mars 2015 - 03:34

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You're comparing "renegade one-night stand option" with the full Jack romance. I'm comparing the full Jack romance to Jack not being romanced at all.

She repeatedly says that she's not interested in friendships, pushes away anybody who tries to help her, and only seems to 'get better' if the player happens to be a dude with whom she can have cuddly fun times.

 

I think you're oversimplifying it. Making it more shallow than it really is.

 

There are better targets for shallow romances, and it always saddens me when Jack becomes the target.

 

As for what she "says", the charm in the story is partly in the voice actress herself. How she subtly delivers mixed messages. If you simply take her at her word, her voice breaks up.. she doesn't want to push Shep away. It's not that simple.


#79580
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Posté 04 mars 2015 - 03:40

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Also, just to add (sorry to carry on in another post), the one night stand is kind of Renegade, yes.. But the romance takes multiple paths too. Which is another thing I liked about it. It had several dimensions. It wasn't like "Paragon Shep saves Jack with the D" and Renegade just shags her. Renegade Shep's lines in a romance are even cooler. It kind of revolves around living a day at a time, not overthinking death and the future.


#79581
veeia
Posté 04 mars 2015 - 04:00

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I didn't like IB at first either. It took me awhile to warm up to him, for the same reason as you. He seemed more controlled than anything else, and I expected him to be more genuine and less performative but after taking him around more and romancing him, I think I get him for who he is, not who he wants people to see. (which aren't that far apart or anything, but still). I've written about this before in bits and pieces, and I really need to sort of assemble it all together at some point, but I think with IB, there's a really interesting character buried in there that the writer didn't do a very good job of highlightling like....I think he tried to have too light of a hand, and instead of IB being subtle, he's almost obscure. 


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#79582
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 04 mars 2015 - 04:04

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I didn't like IB at first either. It took me awhile to warm up to him, for the same reason as you. He seemed more controlled than anything else, and I expected him to be more genuine and less performative but after taking him around more and romancing him, I think I get him for who he is, not who he wants people to see. (which aren't that far apart or anything, but still). I've written about this before in bits and pieces, and I really need to sort of assemble it all together at some point, but I think with IB, there's a really interesting character buried in there that the writer didn't do a very good job of highlightling like....I think he tried to have too light of a hand, and instead of IB being subtle, he's almost obscure. 

 

Fair enough. Romances do sometimes change things or shed new light. Kind of my point about Jack above.


#79583
veeia
Posté 04 mars 2015 - 04:12

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Jack's romance is kind of a sore spot. I mean, I don't begrudge anyone who enjoyed it,  but the combination of her pretty much flat out stating she's bisexual and then being a heterosexual romance (sexualities change and people experiment sure, but that's not really what they seemed like they were going for there...it just makes it seem like her biseuxality was just ~*edgy window dressing*~) and her friendship arc being so deadend, idk, it makes me sad and frustrated. I love her very much though, and probably if I had played through the games as a Dude!Shep, she'd be my canon romance (I would angst over her vs Miranda tbh but I think it'd be her in the end) and I wouldn't be as flippy-floppy on it as I am now, but that's now how it went, lmao. 


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#79584
Xilizhra
Posté 04 mars 2015 - 04:14

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Jack's romance is kind of a sore spot. I mean, I don't begrudge anyone who enjoyed it,  but the combination of her pretty much flat out stating she's bisexual and then being a heterosexual romance (sexualities change and people experiment sure, but that's not really what they seemed like they were going for there...it just makes it seem like her biseuxality was just ~*edgy window dressing*~) and her friendship arc being so deadend, idk, it makes me sad and frustrated. I love her very much though, and probably if I had played through the games as a Dude!Shep, she'd be my canon romance (I would angst over her vs Miranda tbh but I think it'd be her in the end) and I wouldn't be as flippy-floppy on it as I am now, but that's now how it went, lmao. 

I ****** hate Jack's romance for this reason, aside from the whole "magic ****" issue as well. And because of that bisexuality thing, I will say here and now that I find it 100% acceptable and in-character to mod the game to let Shepard romance her as a woman.


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#79585
Guest_John Wayne_*
Posté 04 mars 2015 - 04:16

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I can see both sides of the Jack debate.  I still think the change in character from unromanced Jack to her in ME3 was a pretty big change. Sure it could be that once she became a teacher and growing attached to her students an a den mother sort of way calmed her down a bit . But, emotional walls, dealing with physical abuse, pent up anger and alike do take a considerable amount of time to overcome. Especially when those things have been part of who you are for years. Even if you seek help it can best be described as a process.  I would have liked to see a bit more of the old Jack in the unromanced Jack and even a bit more if you did end up romancing her in ME2. 


#79586
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 04 mars 2015 - 04:18

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I guess I haven't even thought about the implications of unromanced Jack enough.

 

I mean, that's all I do in ME. Romance her. Nothing else is worth my time. :P


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#79587
veeia
Posté 04 mars 2015 - 04:27

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You're cool, StreetMagic. I don't really see it as a debate, in that I don't particularly want to argue with anyone, except maybe the devs of that game lmao, about it.

The trauma aspect of it was handled poorly but Bioware (and media in general) don't tend to handle realistic depictions of trauma well. There are things I don't like about the Fenris romance in respect to that, but I still like his romance. Cullen's lyrium arc is a joke but I still like him, etc.
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#79588
Xilizhra
Posté 04 mars 2015 - 04:29

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You're cool, StreetMagic. I don't really see it as a debate, in that I don't particularly want to argue with anyone, except maybe the devs of that game lmao, about it.

The trauma aspect of it was handled poorly but Bioware (and media in general) don't tend to handle realistic depictions of trauma well. There are things I don't like about the Fenris romance in respect to that, but I still like his romance. Cullen's lyrium arc is a joke but I still like him, etc.

I'm curious. Do you agree with me about Jack's bi mod?


#79589
veeia
Posté 04 mars 2015 - 04:31

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Yes. But I also have no problem with mods that add representation in general, which is a subject I've very lightly touched on here, as I don't want to start anything lmao, cuz I've seen how nasty it gets. 


#79590
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 04 mars 2015 - 04:31

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You're cool, StreetMagic. I don't really see it as a debate, in that I don't particularly want to argue with anyone, except maybe the devs of that game lmao, about it.

The trauma aspect of it was handled poorly but Bioware (and media in general) don't tend to handle realistic depictions of trauma well. There are things I don't like about the Fenris romance in respect to that, but I still like his romance. Cullen's lyrium arc is a joke but I still like him, etc.

 

I don't want to say I'm shallow, but I'm not putting much thought into all of that. Sorry. I probably should.

 

For me, an old skater and punk fan, she was right up my alley just for that alone. Stylistically, I mean. That and she's sexy as hell. As is Courtenay's voice. She also isn't a square.... I felt that Mass Effect could lean a bit too much into corny Boy Scoutish territory. Some characters like Jack, Zaeed, and Aria made it f*cking cool.. and the more time I focused on that, the better I liked the series.


#79591
Guest_John Wayne_*
Posté 04 mars 2015 - 04:31

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You're cool, StreetMagic. I don't really see it as a debate, in that I don't particularly want to argue with anyone, except maybe the devs of that game lmao, about it.

The trauma aspect of it was handled poorly but Bioware (and media in general) don't tend to handle realistic depictions of trauma well. There are things I don't like about the Fenris romance in respect to that, but I still like his romance. Cullen's lyrium arc is a joke but I still like him, etc.

 

Yea, it's one of those situations where in less you have gone through it, it's really hard to imagine just how deeply it can effect you and given how complex the effects of abuse can be, it would be hard as hell to go into any kind of depth in a video game setting, in less it was made a primary focus. Even than you will probably end up getting a shallow idea of the whole thing. 


#79592
Guest_Stormheart83_*
Posté 04 mars 2015 - 04:58

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I thought Jack would've been a much better romance if it didn't operate on the idea that abuse victims need the D to help them overcome past traumas. The difference between a romanced Jack and an unromanced Jack is kind of stark, to the point where her personality shift between ME2 and ME3 is a bit much in the third game unless she was romanced. Unromanced Jack is still basically a b*tchy murderer at the end of ME2 - to jump from that to being a relatively low-key teacher and mentor over the course of six months is kind of a huge deal.

Well, to be honest there are many things Bioware could do better, Jacks romance included. But as there are no other RPGs for consoles that hold a candle to what Bioware has achieved with their various games I tend to overlook it. Also, I kind of liked Jacks renegade attitude when compared to say Miranda, Jacob, Kelly and so on. Admittedly they should of allowed her to be friended and helped regardless of gender.

#79593
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 04 mars 2015 - 05:03

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Well, to be honest there are many things Bioware could do better, Jacks romance included. But as there are no other RPGs for consoles that hold a candle to what Bioware has achieved with their various games I tend to overlook it. Also, I kind of liked Jacks renegade attitude when compared to say Miranda, Jacob, Kelly and so on. Admittedly they should of allowed her to be friended and helped regardless of gender.

 

Yeah, that's one thing the DA games have improved on. Where you can be BFFs or get a variation of the full questline, romance or not. 


#79594
Guest_Stormheart83_*
Posté 04 mars 2015 - 05:08

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Yeah, that's one thing the DA games have improved on. Where you can be BFFs or get a variation of the full questline, romance or not.

Indeed, my inquisitor and friends ( Sera, Dorian, Bull ) comprise team mayhem.

#79595
LightningPoodle
Posté 04 mars 2015 - 06:07

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On a side note ( off topic ) I'm finally upgrading to a PS 4. So, I'm excited for DA:I on next-gen and also No Man's Sky *drools* I can't wait.

 

No Man's Sky is my most anticipated game right now. The scale of it just looks unbelievable but I have absolutely no doubt that the developer will deliver on their promise of "a planet per person" idea.

 

Jack's romance is kind of a sore spot. I mean, I don't begrudge anyone who enjoyed it,  but the combination of her pretty much flat out stating she's bisexual and then being a heterosexual romance (sexualities change and people experiment sure, but that's not really what they seemed like they were going for there...it just makes it seem like her biseuxality was just ~*edgy window dressing*~) and her friendship arc being so deadend, idk, it makes me sad and frustrated. I love her very much though, and probably if I had played through the games as a Dude!Shep, she'd be my canon romance (I would angst over her vs Miranda tbh but I think it'd be her in the end) and I wouldn't be as flippy-floppy on it as I am now, but that's now how it went, lmao. 

 

But she doesn't flat out say she is bisexual. She says that she has "spent time" with a couple. Well, for one, it doesn't state their gender - they could have been two dudes for all we know. Even if one of those two were a women, that doesn't mean she is attracted to women. For a person who uses sex as a tool, attraction and orientation don't come into it.


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#79596
LightningPoodle
Posté 04 mars 2015 - 06:09

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I ****** hate Jack's romance for this reason, aside from the whole "magic ****" issue as well. And because of that bisexuality thing, I will say here and now that I find it 100% acceptable and in-character to mod the game to let Shepard romance her as a woman.

 

So you find it acceptable to change a character, would you find it acceptable to change a person?


#79597
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 04 mars 2015 - 06:09

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No Man's Sky is my most anticipated game right now. The scale of it just looks unbelievable but I have absolutely no doubt that the developer will deliver on their promise of "a planet per person" idea.

 

 

But she doesn't flat out say she is bisexual. She says that she has "spent time" with a couple. Well, for one, it doesn't state their gender - they could have been two dudes for all we know. Even if one of those two were a women, that doesn't mean she is attracted to women. For a person who uses sex as a tool, attraction and orientation don't come into it.

 

I could've sworn she mentions the chick's name and then a boyfriend.. 


#79598
AresKeith
Posté 04 mars 2015 - 06:11

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But she doesn't flat out say she is bisexual. She says that she has "spent time" with a couple. Well, for one, it doesn't state their gender - they could have been two dudes for all we know. Even if one of those two were a women, that doesn't mean she is attracted to women. For a person who uses sex as a tool, attraction and orientation don't come into it.

 

I think she does mention it was a woman

 

Though she could've just been bi-curious 


#79599
raging_monkey
Posté 04 mars 2015 - 06:12

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Maybe she's bisexual but has a preference for male? * scratches head* but im not too well versed in sexuality

#79600
LightningPoodle
Posté 04 mars 2015 - 06:12

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I could've sworn she mentions the chick's name and then a boyfriend.. 

 

I don't remember all to clearly; it's been a while since I have played ME2 but the point is the same. There is no hint at her being bisexual. Yes, she probably has slept with women, probably one on one, but that doesn't mean she is attracted to women.


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