100543 réponses à ce sujet

[Siha]

If Cass's sexuality was switched she probably would get a lot of hate, because of unavailability, 

 

This is an interesting thought. Do you think it might actually be a factor? I am seriously torn. Would she be hated as much if she was heterosexual? What about Merrill? I wasn't here for DA2, so I only know she was not too popular but I don't know how she was discussed back then.

 

To me the ultimate companions was rather telling, Alistair (straight Knight) Varric (straight cool dude) and Morrigan (she's all mine, keep your hands off). Maybe it's a little crass but I don't even see a bi person in the mix, let alone gay. 

 

I actually think that the love for these characters is only because they were well written, strong personalities. And at least the Alistair romance (I never played Morrigan's) was rather good. You could speak to him anywhere at any time, he would even approach you of his own accord (e.g. ask your opinion of the others), and you got different endings depending on your choices and overall attitude. So I don't think their sexuality was what made them popular.

 

There's a difference between being indifferent on magic and hating it. What does her hating magic gain anyone?

 

Frankly? A new point of view. One that we hardly did not see before. So far we were always pushed toward the mages (at least I felt that way, that BW wanted us to favor the mages). Sure, we had some blood mages around, but our companions always accepted magic and never questioned it (or the main character). The protagonist was always on good terms with everybody by default (until deliberately being a jerk). This is the first time we are treated like in real life, facing prejudices and different mindsets. It offers new dynamics and an actually lively relationship that can either manifest (e.g. rivalry path for a mage) or change in the course of events (friendship path for the mage).

[ComedicSociopathy]

Sera/Cadash art. 

 

 

 

[YourFunnyUncle]

Thedas doesn't have messenger pigeons, it has messenger crows. Pigeons in Thedas are for annoying golems...

[veeia]

Hrm...okay well, Alistair and Morrigan, in addition to being the companions that drive Origins, are Gaider creations, and I think one thing that he does very well is creating a complex character with flaws and adding to them a layer of vulnerability and loyalty to the PC that smooths those flaws over a bit. I think that's a huge element of Dorian's popularity over Sera's. There's a line between charming and insufferable, but Dorian's very obvious insecurity and admiration for the PC is kind of what makes his arrogance and privileged natterings more palatable for a lot of people. I know Sera is also insecure and also is loyal to the PC, but its' all written very abrasively and not as unconditional or....handholdy. Which I don't say to criticize Dorian's writing, it's just different because  Lukas doesn't tend to do that. If you look at Carver, Aveline, and Sera... when displaying vulnerability, they don't really have the "softness" that even a character like Morrigan has. 

 

Varric is the designated BFF who doesn't cause drama in a game where almost everyone else does (Aveline is kind of like this too, but she keeps her distance and doesn't hold her tongue as much), so I think his high ranking in the fandom is less because he's the most beloved, but because he's the least polarizing. It's very common for someone who hates  Anders, Merrill, Isabela, or Fenris to have a neutral-positive response on Varric.

 

Sera just has a lot of strikes against her. I think that most players who hate her initially largely dislike her for reasons that don't have to do with gender or sexuality, but it is really easy to see how those things come up in and inform the debates surrounding her and people's continued justification for disliking her as passionately as they do.

 

edit to add: One way that manifests is that I think people are more willing to blame the game/creators if the character they have problems with is male, and the character herself if she's female. 

[WildOrchid]

When in doubt...

 

That reminded me. There's this elf name generator and someone was looking for names for their Lavellan and it came up with the name Shitriel.

 

 

 

"Please... call me Sh!t."

 

 

The tears that were shed back then when i saw the post on Tumblr....

[WildOrchid]

 

 

X

[Serza]

When in doubt...

 

Oh! I might use that. Otherwise, well...

 

Lanaya sounds good. I might use that. I also liked Keeper Lanaya (she's a Keeper in my canon worldstate) a lot in Origins.

I think she had the Craftsmen Goddess Vallaslin...? June, was it?

 

Also, it's surprising how Lyna flows better with Lavellan than Mahariel. It's actually a bit funny that Dalish Warden's surname is Mahariel, but they're from Sabrae clan. I mean, in Inquisition, Dalish Inky's surname is Lavellan. They're from Clan Lavellan.

Hmm. Mahariel's father was the Sabrae Keeper, and their mother was from a different clan, yes...? Maybe there's Clan Mahariel running around Thedas.

 

I know this but it's possible to get the cookie scene before starting a relationship with Sera since it's up to the player to initialize the talk you are referring to.

 

Oh, I see. Now I remember.

[Joe Barnin]

First time poster in this thread. Just finished my second DAI playthough, this one romancing Sera. I was really impressed with how it turned out. As the relationship grew, Sera actually changed my character. My elf became more impulsive, more snarky dialog options, more f'em-if-they-can't-take-a-joke. And it felt good. I mean, she was still basically a team-building, be nice to everyone Inquisitor. But Sera rubbed off on her and gave her an edge. Made the game more interesting, and the character more complete. Companions usually don't affect my character that much. So hat's off to Sera! (Plus she's funny as hell).

[YourFunnyUncle]

Why is Krem a minor character hated so much and yet Serendipity (who's treated as a joke) doesn't appear to have been hated, except by trans people. If it's because Krem is divisive, then why is he divisive, he's trans and actually has the nerve to talk about it. Maybe I'm in a bad mood and shouldn't be posting. Maybe it would be easier for me if there was a male character any male character that was hated as much as some of the females or a trans character. It's hard to use Anders as an example due to hitting on a male Hawke, which actually seems worse to some than blowing up the chantry. Sten killed a family over a lost sword, folk hero, Loghain left an army to die, superhero. Cass has short hair and a bit of a square jaw, this sucks they gave us a guy. Why don't Alistair and Morrigan get much hate for actually throwing away their loyalty and friendship with the warden in a matter of seconds by letting Loghain live and not doing the ritual, they abandon the warden at the worst possible time.

I personally can't put Krem hate down to anything other than bigotry. If I'm being generous then some of that bigotry is down to being uneducated/not having thought stuff through...

[WildOrchid]

First time poster in this thread. Just finished my second DAI playthough, this one romancing Sera. I was really impressed with how it turned out. As the relationship grew, Sera actually changed my character. My elf became more impulsive, more snarky dialog options, more f'em-if-they-can't-take-a-joke. And it felt good. I mean, she was still basically a team-building, be nice to everyone Inquisitor. But Sera rubbed off on her and gave her an edge. Made the game more interesting, and the character more complete. Companions usually don't affect my character that much. So hat's off to Sera! (Plus she's funny as hell).

 

Welcome, new blood.

 

 

 

 

X

[Siha]

Are you asking about if Sera was heterosexual, if so. I'm not sure but there are times I wonder about that or if she were male would she be hated, so much. I was actually talking about if Cass was the lesbian character, she would probably get a lot of hate like Sera did, by not being an option. Not the fact that she would be lesbian but that she was an important character and one that was liked from a previous game and not be available as a romance to a male inquisitor.

 

Yes, that is what I meant. If you think Sera would be better liked if available to a male inquisitor. Because it reminded me of that weird thread a while ago, which was started by a guy who was hurt at her turning him down and who then went on to insult her.

 

Anyway, I don't think her being a women or lesbian is the reason (except for a few weirdos maybe). I think it's just what many people pointed out in different threads: certain traits of character are accepted/tolerated for men but judged much more negatively in women. A man passing rough judgement is a strong leader, a woman doing the same is a heartless ******. Etc. That's stereotypes and prejudices society inflicts on us and no matter how we try to get rid of them, too many people cling to them without actually being aware of it. 

 

And I think (the debate in the Solas thread a bit earlier made me think about this), it's because Sera actually questions the almighty protagonist. Many people think they know it all and are the ultimate authority with the most brilliant tactical mind (in the game at least). So when somebody else (especially just an NPC, a bunch of pixels) questions them, even acts like Sera does (the scene after the Temple was mentioned, when she points an arrow at you), they feel personally attacked.

[KaiserShep]

It's hard to use Anders as an example due to hitting on a male Hawke, which actually seems worse to some than blowing up the chantry. Sten killed a family over a lost sword, folk hero, Loghain left an army to die, superhero. Cass has short hair and a bit of a square jaw, this sucks they gave us a guy. Why don't Alistair and Morrigan get much hate for actually throwing away their loyalty and friendship with the warden in a matter of seconds by letting Loghain live and not doing the ritual, they abandon the warden at the worst possible time.

It is kind of ironic. The Warden got stuck with some jacked up people, as did Hawke, but they remain some of the big favorites. I think what also works in their favor is that the disloyalty issue is easy to overlook if you executed Loghain and did the dark ritual. The only companions that act against you in the series automatically are Anders and Isabela.

[YourFunnyUncle]

I'm going to post this again, on the chance it improves my mood.

*snip*

Oh... Those sketches were the basis for that lovely artwork, weren't they? Was it yours or Artemis's? My memory is playing tricks on me...

[WildOrchid]

it's because Sera actually questions the almighty protagonist. Many people think they know it all and are the ultimate authority with the most brilliant tactical mind (in the game at least). So when somebody else (especially just an NPC, a bunch of pixels) questions them, even acts like Sera does (the scene after the Temple was mentioned, when she points an arrow at you), they feel personally attacked.

 

You just hit the nail on the head, perfectly.

None should question/do things that only the "oh so almighty protagonist" should do instead... It's one of the main problems. Ugh.

[YourFunnyUncle]

The one in the middle is the one that JadePrince made the drawing of, Artemis also had a wonderful Sera drawing made. I think She reposted it recently but maybe it was while you were out of town.

Can you post the JadePrince one again? It really reminds me of Sera and Tressa... 

[veeia]

Why is Krem a minor character hated so much and yet Serendipity (who's treated as a joke) doesn't appear to have been hated, except by trans people. If it's because Krem is divisive, then why is he divisive, he's trans and actually has the nerve to talk about it. Maybe I'm in a bad mood and shouldn't be posting. Maybe it would be easier for me if there was a male character any male character that was hated as much as some of the females or a trans character. It's hard to use Anders as an example due to hitting on a male Hawke, which actually seems worse to some than blowing up the chantry. Sten killed a family over a lost sword, folk hero, Loghain left an army to die, superhero. Cass has short hair and a bit of a square jaw, this sucks they gave us a guy. Why don't Alistair and Morrigan get much hate for actually throwing away their loyalty and friendship with the warden in a matter of seconds by letting Loghain live and not doing the ritual, they abandon the warden at the worst possible time.

 

 

Yeah Krem is hated because of bigotry, full stop. Krem does get the kind of Dorian treatment I was referring to earlier in that he's fairly easy to like. He is also a minor NPC who mostly just hangs out and is friendly with his friends/aides the Inquisition so the over the top reactions make this fairly transparent.  People who hate him and have the nerve to pat themselves on the back and pretend they're oh so progressive because they have transcended "identity politics" to make the leap to a magical land of equality where everyone is "judged on the merit of their character" (as if Krem fans don't actually like his character"), all while spilling a bunch of transphobic bs....I just have no words. (or at least ones I can type here without getting censored )  

 

I definitely didn't mean to imply in my post that sexism/homophobia  aren't a factor for why people dislike Sera, or other characters, just that I think for her in particular, it was a really awful combination of the character being polarizing and that kneejerk dislike to her bringing out everyone's inner *******. There's what the writer puts in and there's what biases we bring, and those combined to make a really big negative reaction to her.  To this extent, while I like Sera's character and think Lukas is a fine writer, I sympathize a lot with the people who are upset about her being the first lesbian companion while being so polarizing. Because we  want complex characters but as people who have to exist in the world that is reacting to those characters, we also want someone who is as well received as Dorian.

 

But the reactions to Krem do show that even when a character is fairly inoffensive (and the only really honestly offended parties there that I can grasp as understandable are people critiquing their ability to support krem), people can and will be assholes

 

also you should always post (er, if you feel like it and have something to say), even if your'e in a bad mood. i always value your contributions and that post was spot on.

 

 

 

 

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

 

Also, it's surprising how Lyna flows better with Lavellan than Mahariel. It's actually a bit funny that Dalish Warden's surname is Mahariel, but they're from Sabrae clan. I mean, in Inquisition, Dalish Inky's surname is Lavellan. They're from Clan Lavellan.

Hmm. Mahariel's father was the Sabrae Keeper, and their mother was from a different clan, yes...? Maybe there's Clan Mahariel running around Thedas.

 

Sabrae Clan was actually only named such in DA2, the guidebook for DA:O apparently calls the Warden's clan 'Mahariel Clan.' 

 

Now that they've changed the name...yeah, I think Mahariel taking her mother's clan name seems like the most logical explanation. 

[Siha]

You just hit the nail on the head, perfectly.

None should question/do things that only the "oh so almighty protagonist" should do instead... It's one of the main problems. Ugh.

 

I'm out of likes today, but I totally like that you agree with me.

Joke aside, I really never thought of this before, it just occurred to me as a vage idea when catching up on the Solas thread. So I was not sure, but the more I think about it, I actually do believe this is where the animosity might come from. Sera does not simply adore and like us for being there, but only if we act in a way she considers appropriate. Other NPCs will only dislike us for being a jerk. But she will dislike us much more naturally if she thinks we don't live up to our role. (And this is another thought I've not played with before... Sera can develop a negative opinion of the protagonist in a much more natural fashion than other NPCs.)

And it is indeed nice that you think this theory is not too far off.

[YourFunnyUncle]

Sure I never tire of posting it.
*snip*

D'awwwww! Thanks!

[WildOrchid]

I'm out of likes today, but I totally like that you agree with me.

Joke aside, I really never thought of this before, it just occurred to me as a vage idea when catching up on the Solas thread. So I was not sure, but the more I think about it, I actually do believe this is where the animosity might come from. Sera does not simply adore and like us for being there, but only if we act in a way she considers appropriate. Other NPCs will only dislike us for being a jerk. But she will dislike us much more naturally if she thinks we don't live up to our role. (And this is another thought I've not played with before... Sera can develop a negative opinion of the protagonist in a much more natural fashion than other NPCs.)

And it is indeed nice that you think this theory is not too far off.

 

Then again, in ME Liara is a "yes man" to Shepard so... that might not hold that much but i've heard a lot of ppl who were complaining about Sera not "seeing things the way I do".