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[Xilizhra]

I feel like Hawke would've used that line.

Oh dear, Vivienne/Merrill banter... what carnage might ensue?

[Iakus]

That's a brutally social Darwinist point of view that's utterly incompatible with her character as it's portrayed everywhere else.

SHe might not use such terms, but it's how she thinks.  Sera doesn't think highly of nobility.  And the Dalish are the self-styled nobility of the elves.  Their motives and beliefs are automatically suspect.  The Temple of Mythal was, to her proof that the "elfy elves" are completely wrong:  their own gods betrayed each other, were no better than demons (or perhaps were demons)  Arlathan destroyed itself.   

 

This confirms in her mind what she has "known" all along:  the Creators are "lies"  Even if they were "real" they weren't gods (ie "really-real") and the Dalish were, at best, trying to recreate something that never existed.  And at worst, trying to build their own Orlesian-like empire where they can "punch down" on the city elves.

 

This is, of course, all part of her warped perspective on elves, of course.

[Bowie Hawkins]

But I don't believe in the Maker. That's another thing she knew already.

 

But she does, and that's something you knew already.

[Bowie Hawkins]

but

 

I have declared a belief in the elven religion

 

many times by this point

 

When I've played Inquisition, that scene was the first one I can recall where I had the option of declaring a belief in the elven gods to Sera.

[Xilizhra]

SHe might not use such terms, but it's how she thinks.  Sera doesn't think highly of nobility.  And the Dalish are the self-styled nobility of the elves.  Their motives and beliefs are automatically suspect.  The Temple of Mythal was, to her proof that the "elfy elves" are completely wrong:  their own gods betrayed each other, were no better than demons (or perhaps were demons)  Arlathan destroyed itself.   

 

This confirms in her mind what she has "known" all along:  the Creators are "lies"  Even if they were "real" they weren't gods (ie "really-real") and the Dalish were, at best, trying to recreate something that never existed.  And at worst, trying to build their own Orlesian-like empire where they can "punch down" on the city elves.

 

This is, of course, all part of her warped perspective on elves, of course.

Oh, Sera. Why did they make you suck so much in this entire arc?

 

 

When I've played Inquisition, that scene was the first one I can recall where I had the option of declaring a belief in the elven gods to Sera.

So, what, Sera was just never paying attention when I talked about it before to other people?

[Bowie Hawkins]

This is, of course, all part of her warped perspective on elves, of course.

 

Given how most of the Dalish have been shown to treat the City elves, if it's a warped perspective she's not the one who warped it.

[AresKeith]

Oh, Sera. Why did they make you suck so much in this entire arc?

 

Because it's only your opinion 

[Xilizhra]

Given how most of the Dalish have been shown to treat the City elves, if it's a warped perspective she's not the one who warped it.

Sera's perspective perpetuates just as much injustice as anything the Dalish have done or said.

[Bowie Hawkins]

So, what, Sera was just never paying attention when I talked about it before to other people?

 

What other scenes did the subject come up in that had her present?

[Bowie Hawkins]

Sera's perspective perpetuates just as much injustice as anything the Dalish have done or said.

 

Her acknowledging the reality of them perpetuating it is not the same as her perpetuating it herself.

[KaiserShep]

I wish Merrill was there to get that little reveal. She'd probably be super jelly that a shem witch got to a working eluvian before she did.

[Duelist]

Love this art :-)

Edit: D**n it didn't work! Curse my Luddite nature!!

There you go. Damn primitive.

I'm guessing you were on mobile, so put [ img ] at the start and [/ img ] sans the spaces.

[Xilizhra]

What other scenes did the subject come up in that had her present?

They seem to have mostly been at Skyhold, but is this misunderstanding truly predicated on the fact that we never discussed anything on this matter that's apparently quite important to Sera until it created a crisis? In that case, my question would be "why is everyone so stupid?"

 

 

Her acknowledging the reality of them perpetuating it is not the same as her perpetuating it herself.

She perpetuates the idea in turn that the Dalish don't have a viable alternate belief system to Andrastianism, and that they should just get over the horrors the Chantry inflicted upon them. Worse than anything the Dalish have said.

 

 

I wish Merrill was there to get that little reveal. She'd probably be super jelly that a shem witch got to a working eluvian before she did.

She might require cuddles.

[FemHawke FTW]

Thanks Duelist!

[Bowie Hawkins]

They seem to have mostly been at Skyhold, but is this misunderstanding truly predicated on the fact that we never discussed anything on this matter that's apparently quite important to Sera until it created a crisis? In that case, my question would be "why is everyone so stupid?"

 

She perpetuates the idea in turn that the Dalish don't have a viable alternate belief system to Andrastianism, and that they should just get over the horrors the Chantry inflicted upon them. Worse than anything the Dalish have said.

 

If you want to write scenes into the game that were never there, then there would have been at least as many where Sera told the Inquisitor about how important her belief in Andraste was, and why it wasn't compatible with the elven religion because of the whole "there are no gods other than the Maker" thing many times over by that point. I was trying to stick to what was actually in the game, though.

 

As for the "worse than anything the Dalish have said" thing... Maybe if you take them calling City elves "flat-ears" and using "shem" as a racial insult toward humans, or things like how Velanna treated the City elves in Awakenings, entirely out of the equation, but again, I'm sticking with what's in the games.

[YourFunnyUncle]

You might not want to use the second or third definitions, but they're equally valid and they apply to the Dragon Age character named Sera. You not liking them doesn't make them invalid, no matter what rhetorical games you try to play to make it so.

I am not "playing rhetorical games" here. I am disagreeing with you sincerely based on my understanding of the word "devout", my reading of the dictionary definitions and my experience of Sera in the game. I though that i was being polite about it, too.

 

http://www.oxforddic.../english/devout

 

http://www.merriam-w...ctionary/devout

 

So... I'm guessing that your definitions come from Merriam-Webster (the most trusted US dictionary)? The latest online version of the third definition gives examples that show clearly what I say, that it is referring to devout when used in its wider sense to describe non-religious devotion to an idea. Oxford (the most trusted UK dictionary) has a similar definition. So again, I maintain that it is irrelevant to our discussion.

 

The second definition is part of the first in Oxford. This is because, as I said, they are closely related. The second merely refers to the expression of the first. . Oxford rolls Merriam-Webster's first two definitions into the more pithy "having or showing deep religious commitment".

 

Sera does have and show some religious commitment, but I cannot in good conscience agree that it is deep. Not compared to Cassandra or Leliana. If you want to assert that it is, based on her few statements about Andraste and the Maker during the game, then I cannot stop you, but I also cannot agree. Therefore, going by dictionary definitions, I cannot call her devout.

 

Now, if you were to say that she devoutly believes that all people should be treated equally, then I might agree with you...

[Xilizhra]

If you want to write scenes into the game that were never there, then there would have been at least as many where Sera told the Inquisitor about how important her belief in Andraste was, and why it wasn't compatible with the elven religion because of the whole "there are no gods other than the Maker" thing many times over by that point. I was trying to stick to what was actually in the game, though.

Then this whole mess could have been avoided if people were more mature.

 

 

As for the "worse than anything the Dalish have said" thing... Maybe if you take them calling City elves "flat-ears" and using "shem" as a racial insult toward humans, or things like how Velanna treated the City elves in Awakenings, entirely out of the equation, but again, I'm sticking with what's in the games.

No, I'm including those.

[Bowie Hawkins]

I am not "playing rhetorical games" here. I am disagreeing with you sincerely based on my understanding of the word "devout", my reading of the dictionary definitions and my experience of Sera in the game. I though that i was being polite about it, too.

 

http://www.oxforddic.../english/devout

 

You bloody well were. But as long as you want to cite the OED, the problem with your interpretation is that you're trying to focus only on the "commitment" part to the exclusion of the "deep belief" part. 

 

You can believe something deeply without being able to use a string of five-gold piece words to express it, and when Sera says "I don't know? I just... I've got all the Chantry stuff in my head, and it makes sense, right", she's expressing a deep belief in what the Chantry taught her as much as when she argues that the elven gods can't actually be gods because it contradicts the Chantry's teaching that there is no god other than the Maker. Although where the matter of commitment is concerned, Sera is willing to sacrifice her relationship with the woman she loves if that's what it takes to avoid lessening her religious beliefs, and that's a level of commitment a lot of people in the real world can't manage.

[jlb524]

When I've played Inquisition, that scene was the first one I can recall where I had the option of declaring a belief in the elven gods to Sera.

I find it hard to believe Sera wouldn't know that about the Inquisitor by that point. It's something most would assume as true for a Dalish elf.

The thing is, it was never an issue until there was evidence that some of it could be "really real" and that was the Temple of Mythal.

Sera has a similar freak out reaction to Cory/Maker's seat/butt when you speak to her after getting Skyhold but it was worse after Mythal because of her feelings about the Dalish.

[Bowie Hawkins]

No, I'm including those.

 

Then you should have taken into account the fact that Dalish elves had been racist towards Sera multiple times during her life before she joined the Inquisition - her dialogue about being told she's not "elfy" enough makes that plain. 

 

I find it hard to believe Sera wouldn't know that about the Inquisitor by that point. It's something most would assume as true for a Dalish elf.

 

Like I said upthread, I'm just discussing what the game gave us.

[Xilizhra]

Then you should have taken into account the fact that Dalish elves had been racist towards Sera multiple times during her life before she joined the Inquisition - her dialogue about being told she's not "elfy" enough makes that plain.

It's absurd to claim that anyone who follows a given religious belief will share the prejudices of others of said religious belief whom you met. It's like assuming that a liberal Catholic would have the same prejudices as a conservative evangelical.

[Sunnie]

Soooo, is this about Sera's beliefs (as presented in the story) or about your own beliefs? I get a sense that you are having a huge personal issue with how these fictitious characters are portrayed, to the point of attacking said fictitious characters.

Seriously, getting worked up over something you have no control over/ability to change is not healthy.

[YourFunnyUncle]

You bloody well were. But as long as you want to cite the OED, the problem with your interpretation is that you're trying to focus only on the "commitment" part to the exclusion of the "deep belief" part. 

 

You can believe something deeply without being able to use a string of five-gold piece words to express it, and when Sera says "I don't know? I just... I've got all the Chantry stuff in my head, and it makes sense, right", she's expressing a deep belief in what the Chantry taught her as much as when she argues that the elven gods can't actually be gods because it contradicts the Chantry's teaching that there is no god other than the Maker. Although where the matter of commitment is concerned, Sera is willing to sacrifice her relationship with the woman she loves if that's what it takes to avoid lessening her religious beliefs, and that's a level of commitment a lot of people in the real world can't manage.

 

Shall I give the whole quote that you lopped the end off?

 

"I just... I've got all this Chantry stuff in my head, and it makes sense, right? But it's... fuzzy. I want to see if it's all really real. I just don't know if I want to really know."

 

And how about:

 

"A Magister who cracked the "Black City" It's a hazy dream, right? I mean, if it's real, real, then the seat of the maker? Real thing. A seat needs a butt* so the maker? Real thing. Fairy stories about the start and end of the world? real things. It's too far, innit? I just want to plug the skyhole rubbish so I can go play."

 

And after saying in a doubting manner "of course" to the question of whether she believes in Andraste, asked if she doubts what she's seeing and hearing:

 

"It can't be true true. Even fanatics don't want to be this right."

 

These sound much more like wavering, unsure beliefs to me. Not devout. So no, I do not agree with you at all.

 

With respect to the post-Mythal break-up scene, as we've discussed previously, and you even agreed, the religious beliefs are just part of a much broader set of motivations. Actually I'd argue that her lack of certainty is part of it. If elven gods are true, then the chantry is wrong, and the Dalish are right. So what if they're right about everything else? Then Sera's entire world-view comes crumbling down. Again her religious motivations are subordinate to her greater ones.

 

*It always irks me that she doesn't say "arse" there...

[Xilizhra]

Soooo, is this about Sera's beliefs (as presented in the story) or about your own beliefs? I get a sense that you are having a huge personal issue with how these fictitious characters are portrayed, to the point of attacking said fictitious characters.

Seriously, getting worked up over something you have no control over/ability to change is not healthy.

They want emotional investment, yes?

 

The issue is that I hate the way she was implemented, and I think that she could have been really good, but the mark was badly missed in too many places.

[AresKeith]

They want emotional investment, yes?

 

The issue is that I hate the way she was implemented, and I think that she could have been really good, but the mark was badly missed in too many places.

 

There's emotional invested and then there's getting too worked up over it to an unhealthy level