100552 réponses à ce sujet

[SardaukarElite]

I just don't get the point of conscription for the mages considering they are willing to help you close the breach anyway.

 

Gameplay wise I think the point is that you can play either questline in more ways than just supporting that group, which I think is really good idea. But I agree that it is oddly framed.

 

I'm likewise not sure what the point of having Templar allies without any kind of command structure of their own is.

 

 

The rebellion itself was completely justified.

 

...and completely pointless unless the Inquisitor goes through a lot of trouble to pull the whole thing back from a total disaster.

 

 

Oh? It was?

I'm having trouble finding evidence that it was justified in the least.

 

Well the Circles weren't exactly picnics on the beach all day. Whether the mages were entitled to a better system is debatable, but that's what conflicts are made of.

[Lady Luminous]

I just don't get the point of conscription for the mages considering they are willing to help you close the breach anyway.

Unlike the templars, the mages aren't part of an organization external to the Inquisition and they have nowhere else to go after getting booted from Redcliffe by the Ferelden monarchy.

I just don't get what's significantly different about conscription besides sending a message that you think Fiona sucks.

 

For me it was a case of taking control over the mages away from Fiona, simply because I don't trust her. 

 

Sure, they may be willing to help, but this way if something goes wrong I get to choose the course of action without facing treasonous actions. 

[Xilizhra]

Why do you strenuously disagree? They aligned themselves with the Venatori an organization that supports slavery (elves) and represents the most reactionary and retrograde of the Tevinter political spectrum. If their leadership (the Mages) were willing to do that, to align with that, then F'em. Seriously. Whining about their rights while making an alliance with a reactionary cult that admires slavery and imperialism. No sympathy from me. None. They can do their penance as conscripts and we'll worry about reform when Cory and his reactionary thugs are deep-sixed!

Well, they didn't know that the Venatori existed (although it's not the most retrograde Tevinter organization by any means, since Calpernia is very strongly pro-slavery-reform, and no one else seems to have a problem with this). Additionally, Fiona was the only leader who made the deal, and she's not even the leader of the rebellion anymore after the Inquisition allies with the mages. I'm not going to force anyone into penance; they don't deserve it, especially not after all this.

 

 

Oh? It was?

I'm having trouble finding evidence that it was justified in the least.

Absolutely. Strategically, it might have been somewhat inept, but morally, it was completely in the right.

[The Loyal Nub]

Are we really forgetting that the mages allying with the Venatori was an act of desperation, and not a first choice? Not to mention that when the deal was made, Fiona was offered what would pass as a good deal, which Alexius later went back on. He lied to them to get them on his side.

 

And it isn't as if the Venatori are going to advertise that they're a doomsday cult that worships an ancient darkspawn. There's no way the mages could have known that.

 

Everyone is distrustful of Tevinter and Fiona should have been more cautious. At the very least she knew of the Inquisition before making the deal with Alexius. She had options. They held Redcliffe which serves as a decent fortress. I think the Mage leadership didn't have a plan for rebellion and the rebellion was pretty violent and without a coherent platform at it's inception.

 

Fiona was a lousy leader so it's a good thing you get to go in and boot her out. Plus the game offers you the chance to do more for the mages than Fiona probably could have. Both Leliana and Cassandra are interested in improving their conditions so you can back them for Divine. 

[The Loyal Nub]

Well, they didn't know that the Venatori existed (although it's not the most retrograde Tevinter organization by any means, since Calpernia is very strongly pro-slavery-reform, and no one else seems to have a problem with this). Additionally, Fiona was the only leader who made the deal, and she's not even the leader of the rebellion anymore after the Inquisition allies with the mages. I'm not going to force anyone into penance; they don't deserve it, especially not after all this.

 

 

Absolutely. Strategically, it might have been somewhat inept, but morally, it was completely in the right.

 

Calpernia is a well-intentioned fool like Fiona. A "useful idiot" as Lenin would have put it. Cory and the Venatori do not share her aims.

[o Ventus]

Everyone is distrustful of Tevinter and Fiona should have been more cautious. At the very least she knew of the Inquisition before making the deal with Alexius. She had options. They held Redcliffe which serves as a decent fortress. I think the Mage leadership didn't have a plan for rebellion and the rebellion was pretty violent and without a coherent platform at it's inception.

 

Fiona was a lousy leader so it's a good thing you get to go in and boot her out. Plus the game offers you the chance to do more for the mages than Fiona probably could have. Both Leliana and Cassandra are interested in improving their conditions so you can back them for Divine. 

 

When your biggest argument is "should have done X" (so, just arguing in retrospect and hindsight), then your argument is pretty weak.

[Xilizhra]

Everyone is distrustful of Tevinter and Fiona should have been more cautious. At the very least she knew of the Inquisition before making the deal with Alexius. She had options. They held Redcliffe which serves as a decent fortress. I think the Mage leadership didn't have a plan for rebellion and the rebellion was pretty violent and without a coherent platform at it's inception.

 

Fiona was a lousy leader so it's a good thing you get to go in and boot her out. Plus the game offers you the chance to do more for the mages than Fiona probably could have. Both Leliana and Cassandra are interested in improving their conditions so you can back them for Divine. 

Cassandra won't really help anything; Leliana's the only hope. But this isn't about Fiona, who's just one person. This is about the entirety of the mage rebellion, and they don't all deserve to be punished for this.

 

 

Calpernia is a well-intentioned fool like Fiona. A "useful idiot" as Lenin would have put it. Cory and the Venatori do not share her aims.

The Venatori follow her to confront Corypheus after the Temple of Mythal business.

[Sunnie]

I can sympathise with the mages, but I don't see how a violent uprising in the circles was supposed to do anything other than get everyone killed quickly, or get nearly everyone killed slowly, and make the rest of population hate them.

other comments supporting more mage repression

 
Desperate people will do desperate things. It's happened all through our own history, and it continues to happen today. I don't blame the Mages for resorting to horrific measures, they've been left with little choice in order to gain the freedom the rest of Thedas has. Treating them with some respect and including them in the rest of society is sorely needed.

 

 

Why do you strenuously disagree? They aligned themselves with the Venatori an organization that supports slavery (elves) and represents the most reactionary and retrograde of the Tevinter political spectrum. If their leadership (the Mages) were willing to do that, to align with that, then F'em. Seriously. Whining about their rights while making an alliance with a reactionary cult that admires slavery and imperialism. No sympathy from me. None. They can do their penance as conscripts and we'll worry about reform when Cory and his reactionary thugs are deep-sixed!

They actually had no idea they were aligning themselves with the Venatori. They were duped into believing that they were about to be slaughtered, then Alexius, a Tevinter Magister, conveniently shows up to save the day. Fiona actually tried getting the help of teh Inquisition first, but Alexius used time magic to dupe them before Fiona went to Orlais. We now know why this happened, and it all went as planned.

But, Fiona believed she made a deal with the Tevinter Imperium, not the Venatori, as Alexius presented himself as such. Again, desperate people will do desperate things. The Redcliff mages deal was for indentured servitude, not slavery, only after the Quizzy gets involved does the actual slavery part come to light.

[Lady Luminous]

Cassandra won't really help anything; Leliana's the only hope. But this isn't about Fiona, who's just one person. This is about the entirety of the mage rebellion, and they don't all deserve to be punished for this.

 

 

I don't think it's a case of punishing them. In my eyes it's removing them from harmful leadership, and ensuring that Fiona can't do any more damage. 

[The Loyal Nub]

When your biggest argument is "should have done X" (so, just arguing in retrospect and hindsight), then your argument is pretty weak.

 

That's absurd. That doesn't make any sense. So I argue she has options but makes a rash judgement and that's weak to you? The only reason it's a weak argument to you is you've convinced yourself of yours. I am not arguing in retrospect either: When she makes the decision to accept Alexis offer, the Inquisition exists and she knows it's interested in finding a solution to the conflict. She has to be or she has no intelligence network or she's an idiot (I subscribe to this). She also doesn't appear to suss out exactly who Alexis is so she is without a decent intel network or again: an idiot. She also holds a fortress which the Templars are not really besieging since the main Templar army, as you'll no doubt recall, was ordered to withdraw before the conclave. None of this is in hindsight or retrospect.

[ComedicSociopathy]

The only reason I conscript the mages is pretty much only because I can't replace Fiona with someone actually compete and trustworthy. If the game had a mage Ser Barris equivalent to take command of the rebellion then I'd probably ally every time but since all we got is lame brain Fiona conscription is the only option. 

 

The again the rebellion also utterly screwed up when it came to ensuring that their fellow mages didn't turn into power-mad apostates murdering innocents in the Hinterlands, which is definitely another notion against them. 

[Xilizhra]

That's absurd. That doesn't make any sense. So I argue she has options but makes a rash judgement and that's weak to you? The only reason it's a weak argument to you is you've convinced yourself of yours. I am not arguing in retrospect either: When she makes the decision to accept Alexis offer, the Inquisition exists and she knows it's interested in finding a solution to the conflict. She has to be or she has no intelligence network or she's an idiot (I subscribe to this). She also doesn't appear to suss out exactly who Alexis is so she is without a decent intel network or again: an idiot. She also holds a fortress which the Templars are not really besieging since the main Templar army, as you'll no doubt recall, was ordered to withdraw before the conclave. None of this is in hindsight or retrospect.

It was ordered to withdraw after the Conclave. It was about to lay siege to Redcliffe before the recall order came, and when Alexius showed up right before said recall order with time magic, that's when Fiona accepted his offer.

[The Loyal Nub]

 
Desperate people will do desperate things. It's happened all through our own history, and it continues to happen today. I don't blame the Mages for resorting to horrific measures, they've been left with little choice in order to gain the freedom the rest of Thedas has. Treating them with some respect and including them in the rest of society is sorely needed.

 

 

They actually had no idea they were aligning themselves with the Venatori. They were duped into believing that they were about to be slaughtered, then Alexius, a Tevinter Magister, conveniently shows up to save the day. Fiona actually tried getting the help of teh Inquisition first, but Alexius used time magic to dupe them before Fiona went to Orlais. We now know why this happened, and it all went as planned.

But, Fiona believed she made a deal with the Tevinter Imperium, not the Venatori, as Alexius presented himself as such. Again, desperate people will do desperate things. The Redcliff mages deal was for indentured servitude, not slavery, only after the Quizzy gets involved does the actual slavery part come to light.

 

Read my response to O Ventus. There is no way to see Fiona as anything other than incompetent. She had other options and she was not in any immediate danger of a siege at Redcliffe. It's a good thing the Inquistor arrives when he/she does to bail Fiona out of her bad decisions and actually give the Mages better options going forward. Xil obviously sees the conscription as bondage but it is obviously better than the other deals on the table. An alliance would likely impair the Inquistion being seen as impartial by the commoners of Thedas who don't like either side. It's better to conscript.

[Sunnie]

Read my response to O Ventus. There is no way to see Fiona as anything other than incompetent. She had other options and she was not in any immediate danger of a siege at Redcliffe. It's a good thing the Inquistor arrives when he/she does to bail Fiona out of her bad decisions and actually give the Mages better options going forward. Xil obviously sees the conscription as bondage but it is obviously better than the other deals on the table. An alliance would likely impair the Inquistion being seen as impartial by the commoners of Thedas who don't like either side. It's better to conscript.

Fiona being incompetent is irrelevant. Some of the most savvy and experienced people get duped every day. And you didn't note in my post where I stated that Alexius used time magic to go back BEFORE Fiona went seeking the Inquisition, because she most certainly DID. You can certainly do what ever you want, but don't dismiss the facts about how and why it happened. Fiona was outplayed, plain and simple.

[Nharia1]

Absolutely. Strategically, it might have been somewhat inept, but morally, it was completely in the right.

Somewhat inept? Uh yea no. Talk about being extremely inept.

 

The moral side is very much up to debate, it greatly depends on who's morals we're using to judge the situation. Me, I say that the mages were better off in the circles since they are susceptible to being possessed by demons and thus need to be protected and have the world protected by them. No the circles weren't the best thing in the world, but for most mages they were better than the alternative of being forced to live in constant danger of being killed by 'friends', family, neighbors, random peasants that happened to be passing by, possessed or any number of other things that could go wrong.

 

The way I see it, the mages of the Dragon age univerese are much like the men that can channel in the Wheel of Time. Until the Dragon Reborn

Spoiler

Rand

  came along, all men were to be rounded up by the Aes Sedai(Literal Translation means Servants of All, but that's not the case by a long shot. All Aes Sedai in the 3rd Age are Female) and 'gentled' because the Male half of the one power was tainted by the Dark One, because otherwise they would go mad and kill those around them by channeling. Then the Dragon Reborn came along and created the Ashaman, a male equivalent to the Aes Sedai. What's curious to note is that there were far more men who could channel than had been found by the Aes Sedai and all of their hunting for men who could for the past 300 years or so.

Yes some men still go mad, but they are at least are carefully observed and before they do go mad completely they are killed off so that they cant cause harm. Also at some point the Dragon Reborn cleanses the taint from Saidin(The male half of the source). And with that men who learn to channel no longer have to fear going mad, and thus the world as well.

Spoiler

which happens during the last battle when these people look to Logain Ablar for protection and once he gives aid, they promise to send their sons to the Black Tower if they showed the gift of being able to channel.

[jlb524]

I just can't be too hard on Fiona considering Alexius could just keep turning back time until he found "the thing" that would convince Fiona to ally with him.

I mean, there's no way he can fail his mission to get the rebel mages cuz time magics! Ya know, the situation is basically the movie "Groundhog Day" and Alexius is Bill Murray.

Not that Fiona doesn't do stupid things...she did King Maric after all.

[SardaukarElite]

 
Desperate people will do desperate things. It's happened all through our own history, and it continues to happen today. I don't blame the Mages for resorting to horrific measures, they've been left with little choice in order to gain the freedom the rest of Thedas has. Treating them with some respect and including them in the rest of society is sorely needed.

 

It's happened throughout our own history and it has often gone spectacularly wrong throughout our own history. Some violent uprisings have succeeded and arguably brought positive change to the world, a lot have been rash, stupid, short sighted, pointless exercises that got a lot of people killed.

 

I would suggest that starting a revolution when your people live in special prisons, surrounded by guards specially trained to hunt and kill them, when your goal requires changing the politics of multiple nations and you have no where to go, was asking for a massacre.

 

I'm not in favour of or trying to justify mage repression. I'm also not in favour of a handful of revolutionaries taking a course of action that will get a heap of people killed for no gain.

 

(edit)

Alexius is Bill Murray.

 

Well I won't be taking that character seriously ever again.

[Xilizhra]

Read my response to O Ventus. There is no way to see Fiona as anything other than incompetent. She had other options and she was not in any immediate danger of a siege at Redcliffe. It's a good thing the Inquistor arrives when he/she does to bail Fiona out of her bad decisions and actually give the Mages better options going forward. Xil obviously sees the conscription as bondage but it is obviously better than the other deals on the table. An alliance would likely impair the Inquistion being seen as impartial by the commoners of Thedas who don't like either side. It's better to conscript.

Except that it literally never impairs the Inquisition this way.

 

 

It's happened throughout our own history and it has often gone spectacularly wrong throughout our own history. Some violent uprisings have succeeded and arguably brought positive change to the world, a lot have been rash, stupid, short sighted, pointless exercises that got a lot of people killed.

 

I would suggest that starting a revolution when your people live in special prisons, surrounded by guards specially trained to hunt and kill them, when your goal requires changing the politics of multiple nations and you have no where to go, was asking for a massacre.

 

I'm not in favour of or trying to justify mage repression. I'm also not in favour of a handful of revolutionaries taking a course of action that will get a heap of people killed for no gain.

I ultimately don't see this as mattering when the Inquisition can intervene and help them win.

[The Loyal Nub]

Fiona being incompetent is irrelevant. Some of the most savvy and experienced people get duped every day. And you didn't note in my post where I stated that Alexius used time magic to go back BEFORE Fiona went seeking the Inquisition, because she most certainly DID. You can certainly do what ever you want, but don't dismiss the facts about how and why it happened. Fiona was outplayed, plain and simple.

 

Supposedly Alexius visits Redcliffe before the Inquisitor wakes up at Haven. You learn that from the Tranquil in the Tavern in Redcliffe. Ok so who is the Fiona we meet in Val Royeaux? You see the problem here? Probably a narrative boner on BioWare's part but it's why I just don't even want to discuss the time travel bit as it makes no sense. I'll deal with the Fiona I meet in Redcliffe and that one is making bad decisions.

[ComedicSociopathy]

I really don't want this thread turn into an another Fiona is or isn't a complete idiot debate, but I really want to state something that doesn't usually get bought up in those flame wars.

 

To me Fiona's actions basically betrayed everything that the mage rebellion was supposed to stand for. The whole point of the rebellion was to free themselves from the Templars and the Chantry, and prove to Thedas that mages could be free to choose their own destiny without hurting or oppressing others. And to that Fiona completely screwed her whole movement by allying with Tevinter. Look at it this this way.

 

The common people think that free mages will turn into evil Tevinter magisters if they leave the Chantry, right. Well, Fiona decides to ally with Tevinter and flee to the Imperium pretty much affirming to everyone that their prejudice was right and that mages can't be trusted. The common people think that mages can't people self-govern. Fiona proves them right by washing her hands of the dangerous apostates in Hinterlands, letting them do whatever they want instead of protecting the little people from them. Worse yet, Fiona managed to permanently destroy any chance of ever getting allies from the nobility again by allowing the Venatori to takeover Redcliffe without even a fight, once again showing everyone that mages can't be trusted.

 

But the thing that bothers me most about Fiona's "plan" is that she's basically abandoning Southern Thedas and every presently remaining mage there along with every future mage child. Just imagine how mages will be treated and viewed in Ferelden after that betrayal in Redcliffe, and with no senior mages or mage organization around to defend them or train new mages I see the situation there turning rather bleak for them.

[The Loyal Nub]

That /\

 

It should not turn into a flame war. It's a disagreement. It's ok to disagree. I have nothing personal against the other side of the argument. Why would I? Bearing a grudge over a video game's plot points is lame.

[Nharia1]

I really don't this want thread turn into an another Fiona is or isn't a complete idiot debate,

I agree, lets go back to talking about sera. Since this is her thread and all...

[Xilizhra]

I really don't want this thread turn into an another Fiona is or isn't a complete idiot debate, but I really want to state something that doesn't usually get bought up in those flame wars.

 

To me Fiona's actions basically betrayed everything that the mage rebellion was supposed to stand for. The whole point of the rebellion was to free themselves from the Templars and the Chantry, and prove to Thedas that mages could be free to choose their own destiny without hurting or opprssing others. And to that Fiona completely screwed her whole movement by allying with Tevinter. Look at it this this way.

 

The common people think that free mages will turn into evil Tevinter magisters if they leave the Chantry, right. Well, Fiona decides to ally with Tevinter and flee to the Imperium pretty much affirming to everyone that their prejudice was right and that mages can't be trusted. The common people think that mages can't people self-govern. Fiona proves them right by washing her hands of the dangerous apostates in Hinterlands, letting do whatever they want instead of protecting the little people from them. Worse yet, Fiona managed to permanently destroy any chance of ever getting allies from the nobility again by allowing the Venatori to takeover Redcliffe without even a fight, once again showing everyone that mages can't be trusted.

 

But the thing that bothers me most about Fiona's "plan" is that she's basically abandoning Southern Thedas and every presently remaining mage there along with every future mage child. Just imagine how mages will be treated and viewed in Ferelden after that betrayal in Redcliffe, and with no senior mages or mage organization around to defend them or train new mages I see the situation there turning rather bleak for them.

All of which strikes me as much ado about nothing, since indenturing the mage rebellion isn't just about Fiona; it affects all mages.

[o Ventus]

That's absurd. That doesn't make any sense. So I argue she has options but makes a rash judgement and that's weak to you? The only reason it's a weak argument to you is you've convinced yourself of yours. I am not arguing in retrospect either: When she makes the decision to accept Alexis offer, the Inquisition exists and she knows it's interested in finding a solution to the conflict. She has to be or she has no intelligence network or she's an idiot (I subscribe to this). She also doesn't appear to suss out exactly who Alexis is so she is without a decent intel network or again: an idiot. She also holds a fortress which the Templars are not really besieging since the main Templar army, as you'll no doubt recall, was ordered to withdraw before the conclave. None of this is in hindsight or retrospect.

 

You're either incapable of reading or incapable of understanding what I and others have said. Fiona DID go to the Inquisition, in Val Royeaux. By the time the Inquisitor and co. reach Redcliffe to speak with Fiona, Alexius had already shown up and used his time magic to get to the mages first. When Fiona made the deal with Alexius, it was for indentured servitude, not slavery, a deal that Alexius went back on. Again, he lied to them to get them on his side.

 

What "intelligence network" do you expect a group of civilians to have? The mages aren't soldiers or spies, they're scholars and otherwise regular people who lived in a tower for their entire lives. They're not the NSA or the FBI.

 

What fortress does Fiona hold? Because last I checked, the mages didn't control anything since the Circles were disbanded.

 

You're arguing ENTIRELY in hindsight and straight-up inventing nonsense to fit your case.

[Lady Luminous]

Okay, back to Sera as others have suggested.

 

Hopefulyl this one hasn't been posted before!