100542 réponses à ce sujet

[YourFunnyUncle]

Spoiler

I don't like the title, because you're still very much accepting her, even if you don't want marriage. I reloaded to check this out even though I accepted her proposal, but I'd like to see what difference it makes to her diary...

[Ghost Gal]

You've come into this thread and are projecting attitudes onto me based on a couple of posts without knowing a thing about what I actually think. I am not squarely placing blame on anyone's shoulders, but trying to show that the situation is nuanced and not black and white.

 

I saw you doing the same thing everyone else in this forum does; excusing non-Dalish's sour attitudes or actions by saying the Dalish did something to deserve it, but then completely glossing over what other people did to the Dalish to explain their sour attitudes or actions.

 

I see you excusing Sera's intolerant behavior toward all the Dalish (including a Dalish Inquisitor who bends over backwards to please her) because some Dalish she encountered were mean to her, but 

 

Sera is one person with one life experience. She's had a pretty crappy life without family support.

 

Her and half of Thedas.

 

She's basically never felt secure or valued anywhere.

 

So... the human noblewoman who took her in and raised her as the daughter she never had, despite human society's prejudice against the elves (bought her cookies and everything), and the Jennies accepting her as one of them were... what? Figments of her imagination?

 

Actually, you know what? I never understood what was so bad about Sera's upbringing. She was orphaned--yeah, so was everyone else. She was taken in by a human noblewoman--I've never really heard of her mistreating or belittling Sera apart from one instance of hiding the fact that she can't bake by saying the baker was racist. While the woman was too proud to admit she couldn't bake, it seems to me like she still cared enough about Sera's feelings to get cookies for her when she thought she wanted them.

 

Granted, in hindsight it sounds like Sera was more asking "Why don't we do mother/daughter things together like other families?" than asking for cookies, and the woman misinterpreted that she wanted the thing (cookies) rather than the bonding time... but it sounds to me like that was an honest mistake born from honest miscommunication. Granted, it sucks that she lied about where the cookies came from, but it seems to me she still wanted to provide for her foster daughter. She could have tried to hide the fact that she couldn't bake by saying, "No cookies!", but she still tried to provide for her in her own way. Yeah, it sucked when Sera found out she lied, but it doesn't sound to me like the noblewoman was trying to hurt or alienate her.

 

Maybe the woman was just aloof and prideful in general and lied about other things, I dunno... but it sounds to me like she was still trying in her own way. But, in typical Sera fashion, she takes the flaws personally and holds it against the woman instead of accepting the flaws or trying to see it from her point-of-view.

 

At some point has clearly interacted with some of the more more intolerant of the Dalish, who have made her feel even worse about herself.

 

And her answer is to turn around and be intolerant toward people she barely knows, and try to make them feel even worse about themselves, even if they never did anything to deserve it.

 

Nuanced and black-and-white or not, I find that rather hypocritical and mean-spirited.

 

She's also of the personality type that hates to be talked down to and has clearly developed a very defensive attitude.

 

I don't know, I find her to be of the personality type that believes she should be able to treat people however she wants, but no one should ever treat her the way she doesn't want to be treated.

 

Seriously, she insults and belittles everyone she comes across, then closes her hands over her ears and screams, "Lalala, can't hear you! Lalala, not listening!" when someone tries to call her out on her own faults or bad behaviors. And Creators help you if you're Dalish. "Lalala, you're just a bigoted Dalish who looks down on me even though you've been nothing but accepting and supportive since we've met and I've riffed on you and your people every chance I got, but the fact that you're asking me to stop talking shite about things you care about or trying to explain your or your people's point-of-view means you're talking down to me and I'm going to use my sad past to excuse continuing to treat you like shite again."

 

That's one aspect of Sera's character I don't like. You have to 100% let her have her way and 100% agree with her in everything (including letting her talk smack about you and your people/culture/beliefs), or you're one of those cruel oppressive intolerant jerks who didn't accept her for who she was and tried to change her. Given what extreme "with me or against me" stances Sera takes in every campaign except Trespasser, I have to wonder just how intolerant the people she encountered in her past really were.

 

She's not blameless but once can understand her if one tries.

 

I did try to understand her. She responded by spitting in my Dalish's face and refusing to try to understand her view or her people, so I don't feel quite so forgiving anymore.

 

She is also capable of getting better with time in an accepting environment as Trespasser clearly demonstrates.

 

What accepting environment was Sera in post-Inquisition that she wasn't in before? Red Jennies? Because when you meet up with her again in Tespasser, she makes it clear that she spent the last two years running with Jennies, same as before you met her. If running with Jennies didn't make her accepting from the time she was a little girl to the time she met the Inquisitor, then how did running with them after the Inquisitor make her nicer?

 

In fact, a lot of things about Sera's background and life don't add up to me. We're apparently supposed to believe her foster mother was abusive, yet it sounds like the worst she did was lie about being able to bake. Sera vehemently hates nobles, yet she had what sounds like a rather accepting (if proud) noblewoman foster mother. Her noble foster mother claimed the baker was racist against elves, yet by Inquisition Sera seems to believe that racism against elves is a myth, and any elf who claims to be subject to racism is just playing victim. She hates human nobles for "shoving their cods around" and oppressing the common folk, yet hates "elfy" elves even more for... ah.. being less tolerant and friendly toward non-elfy elves. Wow... priorities.

 

Between Sera's rather inconsistent background and intolerant attitude, I don't really see what it is I'm supposed to understand or accept about her.

[Duelist]

Couldn't come up with a title, so I just rolled with that and posted it for anyone curious.

[Rel Fexive]

Spoiler

 

Her expressions - and the way she says "I think it's your butt!" - are just really great.  Still that.

 

I saw you doing the same thing everyone else in this forum does;

 

TL;DR

 

Between Sera's rather inconsistent background and intolerant attitude, I don't really see what it is I'm supposed to understand or accept about her.

 

So in short she can be inconsistent and is sometimes mean to people with no real basis for doing so, based on her previous experiences and her general issues with things.  Sounds a bit like a normal person to me, or rather a fairly normally messed up person.

 

Meanwhile you seem to be here to defend the Dalish against every slight, imagined or otherwise.  Well, that always goes well.

[YourFunnyUncle]

So in short she can be inconsistent and is sometimes mean to people with no real basis for doing so, based on her previous experiences and her general issues with things.  Sounds a bit like a normal person to me, or rather a fairly normally messed up person.

 

Meanwhile you seem to be here to defend the Dalish against every slight, imagined or otherwise.  Well, that always goes well.

This is it. She's a flawed character but if you look you can see where it comes from and give her the chance to break out of that. She can be frustrating and annoying but ultimately a relationship with her can be very rewarding.

 

As I said, intolerance breeds intolerance in a vicious cycle. She's had others be intolerant of her (who are intolerant because others are intolerant of them) and she's put up an intolerant shell to protect herself. You have to be the one to break that cycle. It's not going to be her. You don't change her by argument, but by acceptance. I find that a novel thing in a videogame.

[Big I]

I have a question about joining the Red Jennies.

 

In the main game you can choose to work with either Charade from Tantevale or Johi from I don't remember where. This is one of the few war table choices specifically recorded in the Keep.

 

When I played through Trespasser and Sera offered to let me join  the Jennies, there was another human female Jenny sitting next to her. Is that supposed to be Charade? Does it change to a man if you worked with Johi? I never did because I always thought it was more interesting to get the DA2 callback.

[Rel Fexive]

Well, arsebiscuits.

 

[Xilizhra]

Her expressions - and the way she says "I think it's your butt!" - are just really great.  Still that.

 

 

So in short she can be inconsistent and is sometimes mean to people with no real basis for doing so, based on her previous experiences and her general issues with things.  Sounds a bit like a normal person to me, or rather a fairly normally messed up person.

 

Meanwhile you seem to be here to defend the Dalish against every slight, imagined or otherwise.  Well, that always goes well.

Well, it's not like the Dalish don't need it. Also, no need to be mean to my homegirl. You've been civil with my disagreements, you can be civil with her.

 

 

This is it. She's a flawed character but if you look you can see where it comes from and give her the chance to break out of that. She can be frustrating and annoying but ultimately a relationship with her can be very rewarding.

 

As I said, intolerance breeds intolerance in a vicious cycle. She's had others be intolerant of her (who are intolerant because others are intolerant of them) and she's put up an intolerant shell to protect herself. You have to be the one to break that cycle. It's not going to be her. You don't change her by argument, but by acceptance. I find that a novel thing in a videogame.

It's interesting, but not nearly responsive enough. The biggest issue with Sera is that you just can't adequately engage her at all.

[YourFunnyUncle]

Well, it's not like the Dalish don't need it. Also, no need to be mean to my homegirl. You've been civil with my disagreements, you can be civil with her.

I'm trying, but it's tough when any hint of not being 100% pro-Dalish in everything seems to equate to being a rabid elf-hater in her eyes, despite my canon Inquisitor and my first Warden both being Dalish, and the fact that I generally sympathise with their plight.

It's interesting, but not nearly responsive enough. The biggest issue with Sera is that you just can't adequately engage her at all.

I agree to an extent. Post-Mythal for sure, but I don't think such problems are unique to her, and still find her to be one of the most compelling characters yet in a DA game.

[FemHawke FTW]

Her expressions - and the way she says "I think it's your butt!" - are just really great.  Still that.

Spoiler

I loved how she asked "marry me?" It was so cute and sweet. She's so adorable and freakin' awesome

[Xilizhra]

I'm trying, but it's tough when any hint of not being 100% pro-Dalish in everything seems to equate to being a rabid elf-hater in her eyes, despite my canon Inquisitor and my first Warden both being Dalish, and the fact that I generally sympathise with their plight.

Then I can only recommend what you recommend for Sera.

[Xilizhra]

Also, I've just started Trespasser (The Descent was much better than Jaws of Hakkon), and...

 

Spoiler

Marrying Sera was bizarrely short, and I'd have preferred to do it after the DLC was over, but still very sweet. Of course, if she's to be Sera Lavellan, she'll have joined my clan, which... would be very interesting to see, to say the least. However, the weirdest part was when I was forced to tell Cassandra that I wasn't planning on marrying anyone after I'd already married Sera.

[Dani100]

Also, I've just started Trespasser (The Descent was much better than Jaws of Hakkon), and...
 

Spoiler

Marrying Sera was bizarrely short, and I'd have preferred to do it after the DLC was over, but still very sweet. Of course, if she's to be Sera Lavellan, she'll have joined my clan, which... would be very interesting to see, to say the least. However, the weirdest part was when I was forced to tell Cassandra that I wasn't planning on marrying anyone after I'd already married Sera.

Spoiler

There is an option to tell Cass that your inky already married Sera, (under special the lower comment) the option that you chose has a negative effect the next time you talk to Cass at the palace, be prepared for the bug.

[Xilizhra]

Spoiler

There is an option to tell Cass that your inky already married Sera, (under special the lower comment) the option that you chose has a negative effect the next time you talk to Cass at the palace, be prepared for the bug.

Spoiler

I didn't get that option, for whatever reason.

[AddieTheElf]

Spoiler

There is an option to tell Cass that your inky already married Sera, (under special the lower comment) the option that you chose has a negative effect the next time you talk to Cass at the palace, be prepared for the bug.

Spoiler

i didnt get this option either... gah

[Xilizhra]

Well...

 

Spoiler

In the end, I just don't think that things will work out between me and Sera. Trespasser made a valiant attempt to salvage it, but a lot of the dialogue I've seen felt terribly inorganic and unrealistic for two people who are supposed to be in a long-term relationship, and to be frank, there are too many holes in the entire arc for me to patch in character-fitting ways.

 

It's been quite a run, though, trying to figure out where my heart lies. Mostly a huge pain in the ass, but it helped me think about my own character a lot, and sort out a lot of my own feelings about the Dalish and what I want from the story. And analyzing Sera's character has always been fun.

[ComedicSociopathy]

So... the human noblewoman who took her in and raised her as the daughter she never had, despite human society's prejudice against the elves (bought her cookies and everything), and the Jennies accepting her as one of them were... what? Figments of her imagination?

 

Actually, you know what? I never understood what was so bad about Sera's upbringing. She was orphaned--yeah, so was everyone else. She was taken in by a human noblewoman--I've never really heard of her mistreating or belittling Sera apart from one instance of hiding the fact that she can't bake by saying the baker was racist. While the woman was too proud to admit she couldn't bake, it seems to me like she still cared enough about Sera's feelings to get cookies for her when she thought she wanted them.

 

Granted, in hindsight it sounds like Sera was more asking "Why don't we do mother/daughter things together like other families?" than asking for cookies, and the woman misinterpreted that she wanted the thing (cookies) rather than the bonding time... but it sounds to me like that was an honest mistake born from honest miscommunication. Granted, it sucks that she lied about where the cookies came from, but it seems to me she still wanted to provide for her foster daughter. She could have tried to hide the fact that she couldn't bake by saying, "No cookies!", but she still tried to provide for her in her own way. Yeah, it sucked when Sera found out she lied, but it doesn't sound to me like the noblewoman was trying to hurt or alienate her.

 

Maybe the woman was just aloof and prideful in general and lied about other things, I dunno... but it sounds to me like she was still trying in her own way. But, in typical Sera fashion, she takes the flaws personally and holds it against the woman instead of accepting the flaws or trying to see it from her point-of-view.

 

True, which is why Sera admits that she's being stupid when you confront her about it. She gets that her mother was trying to be good and she see her point of view assuming that her mother was probably hiding the fact that she couldn't bake because her own mother never taught in the first place. Which is ultimately why she's meets you on a rooftop to help bake cookies. She doesn't want to feel resentment towards a woman, who for the most part, was loving towards her and wants to replace those negative feelings she gets whenever she sees delicious treats with a more positive memory of the Inquisitor and her baking together.

 

It's probably not the most conventional way to deal with childhood issues, but she does try to see things from her mother's point of view and get over her past. 

 

Seriously, she insults and belittles everyone she comes across, then closes her hands over her ears and screams, "Lalala, can't hear you! Lalala, not listening!" when someone tries to call her out on her own faults or bad behaviors. And Creators help you if you're Dalish. "Lalala, you're just a bigoted Dalish who looks down on me even though you've been nothing but accepting and supportive since we've met and I've riffed on you and your people every chance I got, but the fact that you're asking me to stop talking shite about things you care about or trying to explain your or your people's point-of-view means you're talking down to me and I'm going to use my sad past to excuse continuing to treat you like shite again."

 

That's one aspect of Sera's character I don't like. You have to 100% let her have her way and 100% agree with her in everything (including letting her talk smack about you and your people/culture/beliefs), or you're one of those cruel oppressive intolerant jerks who didn't accept her for who she was and tried to change her. Given what extreme "with me or against me" stances Sera takes in every campaign except Trespasser, I have to wonder just how intolerant the people she encountered in her past really were.

 

 

I did try to understand her. She responded by spitting in my Dalish's face and refusing to try to understand her view or her people, so I don't feel quite so forgiving anymore.

 

Yep, that's totally true as well and she's ass for acting that like that.

 

For me, I never really cared because I never really cared about Dalish religion, or any of the other major religions in Thedas. The only thing I can really say in her defense it that she's very, very self-conscious about her worth as a person, so much so that her greatest fear is being Nothing and having no purpose. That to me explains why she's overly defensive about the whole Dalish thing, she hates the idea that the lifestyle she's leading (living in cities, apathy towards nature, interacting with humans, worshiping Andraste, indifference towards history, wearing shoes) is somehow wrong and not worthy of a "true elf" and that combined with the fact that Sera would probably make a pretty bad Dalish even if she tried makes her resent the whole culture.

 

Of course, since she herself treats your own identity as a Dalish as worthless (which it kind of is after Trespasser) I understand why you don't feel sympathetic towards her. 

 

What accepting environment was Sera in post-Inquisition that she wasn't in before? Red Jennies? Because when you meet up with her again in Tespasser, she makes it clear that she spent the last two years running with Jennies, same as before you met her. If running with Jennies didn't make her accepting from the time she was a little girl to the time she met the Inquisitor, then how did running with them after the Inquisitor make her nicer?

 

She decided to grow up in the those two years and get over it on her own, without the Inquisitor having to play therapist for her.

 

A refreshing change of pace from Bioware.  

 

I mean, this Sera were taking about here who tends to hold grudges and prejudice for years, but can get over them rather quickly as well. Dorian, the condescending noble Tevinter mage, becomes her drinking buddy, for instance. 

 

In fact, a lot of things about Sera's background and life don't add up to me. We're apparently supposed to believe her foster mother was abusive, yet it sounds like the worst she did was lie about being able to bake. Sera vehemently hates nobles, yet she had what sounds like a rather accepting (if proud) noblewoman foster mother. Her noble foster mother claimed the baker was racist against elves, yet by Inquisition Sera seems to believe that racism against elves is a myth, and any elf who claims to be subject to racism is just playing victim. She hates human nobles for "shoving their cods around" and oppressing the common folk, yet hates "elfy" elves even more for... ah.. being less tolerant and friendly toward non-elfy elves. Wow... priorities.

 

Between Sera's rather inconsistent background and intolerant attitude, I don't really see what it is I'm supposed to understand or accept about her.

 

She doesn't hate the Dalish more then she hates oppressive nobles.

 

She doesn't like the Dalish to be sure, but that dislike is ultimately passive. She talks trash against them,yes, but unlike the nobility she isn't determined to kill them when do something she dislikes and doesn't bother waging a shadow war against them either. Hell, in Din'an Hanin she gets infuriated when she finds out that the Venatori slaughtered a small Dalish group that was defenseless. 

 

Anyways, I think the thing your supposed to get from her is that prejudice tends to breed more prejudice, and that the Dalish's attitude toward their own superiority as true elves can ultimately turn more of their own kind against them than towards them.

 

I think your also supposed to get that trying to change someone to see your side of view can be a waste of time and that it's better to just let them figure it out on their own, which is exactly what happens to Sera.

 

"You don't like the Dalish? Whatever, just point your arrows at the rampaging demons."

 

It can be frustrating sure, but arguing constantly with someone who doesn't see your side of things is usually pointless, especially when you really don't get much out of winning the debate anyways. Sera isn't like Solas in that convincing him of something could literally save the world. 

 

Oh, and this my personal opinion here, but your probably also supposed to understand that young people can be really, really stupid and more inflexible in their opinions than an ancient elf. But that being said, they are still young and if given enough time to figure things out on their own they can grow as a person and recognize their own stupidity. 

 

Character development. It may not come when you want it to, but it will come. 

 

Unless you're Vivienne of course. 

[SardaukarElite]

Oh hey, Dalish skirmishing in the Sera thread, it's like old times.

 

---

 

That marriage proposal is something special, I wonder if it would actually work.

[bustoparadise]

So...completely different topic...Earlier today I was at the Dragon Age panel at the Edmonton Comic Expo! And I got to speak to Sera's writer, Luke Kristjanson!

 

It was a lot of fun! I got to chat with Laidlaw at the BioWare booth earlier that day and massively fangirled. He said the team was very proud of Inquisition even if it wasn't a perfect game, and that he's heard a lot of people got choked up at the end of Trespasser. He asked me if I'd replayed the game, and said that a lot of Solas's lines and banters will make a lot more sense now! (And, no, he can't say anything about the possibility of Dragon Age 4 for legal reasons.)

 

Then the Dragon Age panel started. All the panellists were kinda relaxed and silly because they got to talk about a game that was already over. Mark Darrah and Luke were both in cosplay--"which is a sign you know the game is over," said Laidlaw. Darrah made tea on stage and gave away short-bread cookies! He was all steampunked up, and I suppose that means you carry around a tea-set? I dunno. Cons, amirite?

 

Sera's writer, Luke, has been a BioWare writer since Baldur's Gate 1, so he had some fun stories about that. Weekes joked that he was going to ask Luke BG1 questions for the entire panel if nobody jumped in for the Q&A portion. (People jumped in for the Q&A portion.)

 

When we got to the Q&A, somebody asked Luke a question about whether or not he had a scene he wished he could've written for Sera. The immediate answer, like, didn't even blink, was "Sex on a dragon." And everyone laughed. "The cinematic designers had something to say about that," joked Laidlaw.

 

Weekes' (maybe?) favourite line in the game was Sera's "I think that's your butt" from Trespasser and then what happens afterward. Y'know. Someone else liked a line of banter between Sera and Blackwall about the size of people's swords from Trespasser. ("Someone else"? Ugh. Should've taken notes.)

 

I got to chat a little bit with Luke afterward. I was in some Sera cosplay and I had a cookie, which I think he appreciated! He said he enjoys writing characters that ****** people off, and mentioned he wrote Carver in DA2 as well. I said how much I loved our interactions with Sera at Halamshiral (love love love the disapproval she gives you if you have high court approval!), and he said that was so much fun to write. Um, wish I could remember more, but I was fangirling too hard! Unfortunately, he doesn't have any novels out or any other way I can support him with my money, so I guess I'll just have to support him by buying ME: Andromeda, which he's working on next!

 

Yeah, sure, there were other conversations (including, during the Q&A, an amusing one about Tali's accent and what it was supposed to be, and someone asked "Why is Solas so soulless?" and I thought that was really funny), but I only really paid attention to the Sera stuff. There was a lot of "for legal reasons" whenever they talked about DA4. Which they could not confirm is going to be a thing. For legal reasons.

[YourFunnyUncle]

Then I can only recommend what you recommend for Sera.

I'm glad you see the irony...

Well...

Spoiler

In the end, I just don't think that things will work out between me and Sera. Trespasser made a valiant attempt to salvage it, but a lot of the dialogue I've seen felt terribly inorganic and unrealistic for two people who are supposed to be in a long-term relationship, and to be frank, there are too many holes in the entire arc for me to patch in character-fitting ways.

It's been quite a run, though, trying to figure out where my heart lies. Mostly a huge pain in the ass, but it helped me think about my own character a lot, and sort out a lot of my own feelings about the Dalish and what I want from the story. And analyzing Sera's character has always been fun.

I'm pleased that you at least took something from the experience, and you've always been civil, even when we disagreed, so I wish you the best for the next game.

[YourFunnyUncle]

*fangirl squee snip*

I'm so glad you had a great time, and that you got to talk to Lukas. Do you know if the panel was recorded?

[Rel Fexive]

So...completely different topic...Earlier today I was at the Dragon Age panel at the Edmonton Comic Expo! And I got to speak to Sera's writer, Luke Kristjanson!

 

*yip yip yip*

 

That's awesome. Sex on a dragon!

[SardaukarElite]

A live dragon or a dead dragon?

[Rel Fexive]

Well, it's not like the Dalish don't need it. Also, no need to be mean to my homegirl. You've been civil with my disagreements, you can be civil with her.

 

Mean?  Hardly.  Just grumbling about the (at the time seemingly) inevitable scrap that was coming for no actual reason except that she (is she? homegirl, assumption made) started one, rather than anything specifically directed at her.  I mean, seriously, it was like the assumption that "Sera thread = hates Dalish = let's argue".

 

Anyway, lets leave those coals to cool rather than stoke them up again.

 

 

Glad you were able to work through the Sera Experience for yourself and make your own decision on it anyway.  I think she was always going to rub you the wrong way - uh, so to speak - because, well, she hates the things you like.  And even if she matures a bit and acknowledges those problems and moves on from them, as she does in Trespasser, it still wasn't going to work in the end.  Which, y'know, is fine because that's kinda like real life, and she's not a real person anyway so it's hardly anything for any of us to cry about, is it?

 

We, the assembled ranks of the Seranade, are all sorry you can't quite appreciate her like we do, though, cos we all think she's awesome!   We can't all like the characters equally though, can we?

 

On that note, who was your totally best companion in the game, anyway?  Curious to know who you actually liked!

[Rel Fexive]

A live dragon or a dead dragon?

 

I guess there's more opportunities for dead ones.... until the end of the main game, at least, depending on how your choices go.

 

 

(I did write a Tale where a dead dragon provoked some passion, does that count?)