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[PreciousPisces]

 

Spoiler

This is a spoiler.

 

Gives:

 

Spoiler

This is a spoiler.

 

But don't worry. Everyone in this thread knows Sera's romance pretty well by now! 

 

 

Spoiler

Thanks!

 

[YourFunnyUncle]

Yeah, Cassandra and Vivienne are - I think - concerned with the Inquisition's image. Solas just doesn't approve of her non-elfyness, I guess?

Though Cass comes around and gives you her blessing and even Solas says in some general, non-Seramance related banter that you can't help who you love. Vivi, uh... never quite manages lmao.

One thing I really like about Cass is that while she can be initially judgemental, she does tend to think about things and change her mind based on experience and she's not afraid to admit when she was wrong. Sera is a case in point.

[The Loyal Nub]

It's always been a strike against Viv in my book that she can't like Sera. It's meant Dorian gets the party mage slot constantly.

[PreciousPisces]

Yeah, Cassandra and Vivienne are - I think - concerned with the Inquisition's image. Solas just doesn't approve of her non-elfyness, I guess?

Though Cass comes around and gives you her blessing and even Solas says in some general, non-Seramance related banter that you can't help who you love. Vivi, uh... never quite manages lmao.

 

Viv is so hard to like sometimes. Even though I'm playing with a character I figured should be wary of magic who possibly would like to see Circles restored, it's hard to agree with Viv or do and say things that get her approval. When I played as an elf mage, I had no trouble disagreeing with her on everything. 

 

When I take both Sera and Viv out together, there's some interesting banter. Sera said something like, Viv just can't turn it off, can she. Viv said, for your Sera, no. Lol

[vertigomez]

LOL, somehow I manage to really like both Sera and Vivienne. Even though I'm definitely on Sera's side when she threatens to shove her boot up Vivi's nethers for talking trash about your relationship.

And I definitely do love that character trait of Cassandra's. Or anyone who is willing to admit that they were wrong. Leli has some of that too, when she says unintentionally racist things about an elven Warden and then apologizes. Or even Dorian and Blackwall who do a lot of sniping back and forth, they're both willing to admit they were wrong about each other in the end.

[Xilizhra]

So, does anyone else think that Sera has a very confusing backstory? She's apparently experienced no community with any other elves, no racism from humans to an extent great enough to indicate that it's a systemic problem, has apparently never had a lover who's acknowledged her despite none of her associates exactly being upper-crust, and uses a bow in tight quarters where other weapons would probably be better. It makes figuring her out very difficult.

[vertigomez]

So, does anyone else think that Sera has a very confusing backstory? She's apparently experienced no community with any other elves, no racism from humans to an extent great enough to indicate that it's a systemic problem, has apparently never had a lover who's acknowledged her despite none of her associates exactly being upper-crust, and uses a bow in tight quarters where other weapons would probably be better. It makes figuring her out very difficult.

She's a complicated girl.

Briala is a city elf who uses a bow, too. As for racism, there's no doubt she experienced it - but as her experience with Lady Emmald shows, to her it's all about the individuals. Lady Emmald used Sera's race against her, to keep her controlled, and she convinced Sera to hate that human baker and make his life miserable even though he'd never done anything to her. As for her lovers, it's possible that she's just never had a long-term relationship... you can accept someone for a roll in the hay, but that's different than accepting someone for life.

[Xilizhra]

She's a complicated girl.

Briala is a city elf who uses a bow, too. As for racism, there's no doubt she experienced it - but as her experience with Lady Emmald shows, to her it's all about the individuals. Lady Emmald used Sera's race against her, to keep her controlled, and she convinced Sera to hate that human baker and make his life miserable even though he'd never done anything to her. As for her lovers, it's possible that she's just never had a long-term relationship... you can accept someone for a roll in the hay, but that's different than accepting someone for life.

What confuses me is that it's obvious that she sees elven culture as being another form of oppression, since it tries to make you conform to certain standards based on race, but I find it hard to see how she could never perceive that elves are being systematically discriminated against by humans.

[YourFunnyUncle]

I think she's fully aware of human anti-elf prejudice and has experienced it. The point I think is that she was taken away from her elven family at a young age and so doesn't remember them, but then raised by a human woman who used anti-elf prejudice as part of a lie to cover up her own failings.

 

When she left her human upbringing, she found that she was too human in her attitudes for the elves she met, and felt rejected as much by them as by the prejudiced humans. She doesn't like human anti-elf prejudice but she thinks by hanging onto the past and setting themselves up as different, elves in general and the Dalish in particular just make it worse. She sees them as pridefully fooling themselves into thinking that they will return to past days of elven glory instead of accepting the world as she believes it truly is. For her it's like a bigger real-world version of her stepmother lying about the cookies and the baker solely in order to feel good about herself instead of accepting her own flaws.

 

She also sees that the human peasantry is discriminated against by the nobles almost as badly and the Elves are, so she's latched onto the idea of fighting for all the oppressed no matter their race.

 

In the Jennies she found a group that accepted her for her talents, didn't care about her race, and were sticking it to the people she sees as the real oppressors. The problem is it's a chaotic organisation in constant upheaval, so she still never really had any stable relationships.

[The Loyal Nub]

She also sees that the human peasantry is discriminated against by the nobles almost as badly and the Elves are, so she's latched onto the idea of fighting for all the oppressed no matter their race.

 

 

 

I think this is the key point. Sera sees discrimination and exploitation as a common Thedas problem and weighed against every group. She makes a remark about Dwarves being kicked out of Orzammar for not being "elfy-elf enough" so it's clear she grasps that discrimination and group-think are common problems not exclusive to Elves.

[Xilizhra]

I think she's fully aware of human anti-elf prejudice and has experienced it. The point I think is that she was taken away from her elven family at a young age and so doesn't remember them, but then raised by a human woman who used anti-elf prejudice as part of a lie to cover up her own failings.

 

When she left her human upbringing, she found that she was too human in her attitudes for the elves she met, and felt rejected as much by them as by the prejudiced humans. She doesn't like human anti-elf prejudice but she thinks by hanging onto the past and setting themselves up as different, elves in general and the Dalish in particular just make it worse. She sees them as pridefully fooling themselves into thinking that they will return to past days of elven glory instead of accepting the world as she believes it truly is. For her it's like a bigger real-world version of her stepmother lying about the cookies and the baker solely in order to feel good about herself instead of accepting her own flaws.

 

She also sees that the human peasantry is discriminated against by the nobles almost as badly and the Elves are, so she's latched onto the idea of fighting for all the oppressed no matter their race.

 

In the Jennies she found a group that accepted her for her talents, didn't care about her race, and were sticking it to the people she sees as the real oppressors. The problem is it's a chaotic organisation in constant upheaval, so she still never really had any stable relationships.

I don't think that it's actually true that human lower-class people are nearly as discriminated against as elves. Self-defense isn't illegal for them, for one thing, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

 

And what would she think about trying to create a new future for elves? Not necessarily a separatist one, but a concerted effort to uplift the elves.

 

 

I think this is the key point. Sera sees discrimination and exploitation as a common Thedas group and weighed against every group. She makes a remark about Dwarves being kicked out of Orzammar for not being "elfy-elf enough" so it's clear she grasps that discrimination and group-think are common problems not exclusive to Elves.

But doesn't grasp that they're most pernicious in humans against elves?

[vertigomez]

If we're playing misery poker, I'd say injustices are most pernicious in the case of dwarves versus casteless dwarves.

[The Loyal Nub]

I don't think that it's actually true that human lower-class people are nearly as discriminated against as elves. Self-defense isn't illegal for them, for one thing, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

 

And what would she think about trying to create a new future for elves? Not necessarily a separatist one, but a concerted effort to uplift the elves.

 

 

But doesn't grasp that they're most pernicious in humans against elves?

 

Even if she felt that way she still feels that that it's the system and the structures of power that are responsible. 

[Xilizhra]

If we're playing misery poker, I'd say injustices are most pernicious in the case of dwarves versus casteless dwarves.

This isn't about misery poker, this is about acknowledging that elves aren't baselessly whining.
 

 

Even if she felt that way she still feels that that it's the system and the structures of power that are responsible. 

They bear responsibility, yes, but so does every individual who follows and upholds them.

[The Loyal Nub]

This isn't about misery poker, this is about acknowledging that elves aren't baselessly whining.
 

 

They bear responsibility, yes, but so does every individual who follows and upholds them.

 

Sera knows this but she also sees how Elves have profited from the system too. Notice how she does not trust Briala and why would she? Even so called "nationalist revolutionaries" will cut deals to suit themselves and even sleep with the enemy.

[Xilizhra]

Sera knows this but she also sees how Elves have profited from the system too. Notice how she does not trust Briala and why would she? Even so called "nationalist revolutionaries" will cut deals to suit themselves and even sleep with the enemy.

Um, no they haven't. In the slightest. And her reading of Briala is laughably off and based solely on ignorance.

[The Loyal Nub]

Um, no they haven't. In the slightest. And her reading of Briala is laughably off and based solely on ignorance.

 

I think Sera gets Briala right. Briala is not to be trusted.

[Xilizhra]

I think Sera gets Briala right. Briala is not to be trusted.

Citation needed.

[The Loyal Nub]

Citation needed.

 

Wicked Eyes. Briala is quite willing to sacrifice an agent to get the job done. Rather ruthless and Sera makes a note of it. You can also look at the the relationship between Briala and Celene. It would make me distrust Briala's motivations. I am not saying Briala is evil but she is certainly morally complicated and a practitioner of a type of politics that would disgust Sera.

[Xilizhra]

Wicked Eyes. Briala is quite willing to sacrifice an agent to get the job done. Rather ruthless and Sera makes a note of it. You can also look at the the relationship between Briala and Celene. It would make me distrust Briala's motivations. I am not saying Briala is evil but she is certainly morally complicated and a practitioner of a type of politics that would disgust Sera.

Allegedly. I'm nearly 100% certain that said agent wasn't actually intended to be sacrificed. As for Briala/Celene... not really, since they're quite willing to reconcile. And all of them practice politics that disgust Sera.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think she'd be conflicted because on the one hand they disagree on some pretty substantial issues, but on the other hand Merrill's reeeaaallly cute.

 

That... is actually probably the long and short of it, yeah. 

[YourFunnyUncle]

I don't think that it's actually true that human lower-class people are nearly as discriminated against as elves. Self-defense isn't illegal for them, for one thing, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

And what would she think about trying to create a new future for elves? Not necessarily a separatist one, but a concerted effort to uplift the elves.

I was trying to explain how Sera came to her world-view based on her life experience, not saying that there are no problems with it. I do think that she tends to oversimplify things, but then we all do that to some degree. I seek to understand her as a character not to justify her opinions.

As to uplifting the elves, I think she would be very happy to see all elves held as equals with humans, but it would be tough to convince her that you could achieve that by restoring ancient elven culture.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Allegedly. I'm nearly 100% certain that said agent wasn't actually intended to be sacrificed. As for Briala/Celene... not really, since they're quite willing to reconcile. And all of them practice politics that disgust Sera.

 

Based on what? Sacrificing or mistrusting other people in order to achieve her goal is exactly in character for Briala and everyone else involved at that Winter Palace. In fact, it's basically one of the "Fen'Harel lessons" that Felessan taught her in The Masked Empire.

 

Anyway, Sera would most certainly disapprove of anything related to uplifting elves (maybe after Trespasser, she wouldn't care). She disapproves of the notion of an elven identity, thinking it is inherently divisive and prejudiced. As she says in the breakup scene with a Lavellan, she believes that identifying as an elf "Makes it us and them, and I happen to like them."

 

She disapproves of an Elf Inquisitor saying "An Elf will stand for you all" at Skyhold, but not a dwarven or Qunari Inquisitor doing the same thing, even though they are the same speech word for word.

 

There's a scene in Jaws of Hakkon where she demands the Inquisitor perform one of the Avvar rituals in such a way that the injured hunter will retain his family name after his father's funeral, because she sees it as their equivalent of him becoming "The wrong kind of elf." That suggests to me that she hates all the exclusionary tenants of other cultures too, but sees elfiness as the worst because of her own experience. Or that perhaps since it and her experience with it is "hers", it's the only culture she feels entitled to reject entirely as inherently bad.

 

I thought it was interesting that even though she's proud of her "un-elveness", she seems unwilling to suggest that same decision for anyone else.

[Xilizhra]

Based on what? Sacrificing or mistrusting other people in order to achieve her goal is exactly in character for Briala and everyone else involved at that Winter Palace. In fact, it's basically one of the "Fen'Harel lessons" that Felessan taught her in The Masked Empire.

Based on the game. I'm blessedly ignorant of the novel, and more importantly, so is Sera.

 

 

Anyway, Sera would most certainly disapprove of anything related to uplifting elves (maybe after Trespasser, she wouldn't care). She disapproves of the notion of an elven identity, thinking it is inherently divisive and prejudiced. As she says in the breakup scene with a Lavellan, she believes that identifying as an elf "Makes it us and them, and I happen to like them."

 

She disapproves of an Elf Inquisitor saying "An Elf will stand for you all" at Skyhold, but not a dwarven or Qunari Inquisitor doing the same thing, even though they are the same speech word for word.

Then what is necessary for her to realize is that humans will never help elves, as a society. There'll be some humans who will overcome culturally ingrained prejudices against elves, certainly, but human society will not go out of its way to help elven society (and those societies are separate, like it or not). Elves have to stand for themselves, and I don't believe that can be done without the use of an elven identity. This doesn't mean rejecting humans, but it does mean not relying on humans.

[YourFunnyUncle]

Based on the game. I'm blessedly ignorant of the novel, and more importantly, so is Sera.

 

She may be ignorant of all that went on in the novel, but don't forget that she was the Red Jenny of Val Royeaux. I think there's a very good chance that she knows a fair bit about Briala...