100542 réponses à ce sujet

[YourFunnyUncle]

I think it's an extension of her anarchic temperament and disdain for nobles, or anyone else who puts on airs. She wants people to just be people. TO her, being human or elf doesn't matter. Nor does being poor or wealthy, titled, or mage-born. It's why she reacts with disgust towards anyone who puts themselves above others (like Vivienne). Even the Jennies aren't an organization, really. They're just a bunch of "friends" who do each other favors.

The Dalish are all about putting on airs, though. They are "the last of the elvhen" and she isn't a "real elf" to them. And being a "real elf" is all-important to them. They think they're better than she is because they worship different gods and wear vallalsin. And that, to Sera's mind, makes them no better than human nobles.

There's certainly an element of that, for sure. It's clear that some Dalish talked down to her at some stage and dismissed her as not a proper elf. My point was that it's the aloof attitude and rejection of her as not being a proper elf that caused her to raise that barrier where she ridicules everything to do with them, but she's perhaps not so incurious about their history as she paints herself.

[Iakus]

With Sera, a two-steps-removed extension doesn't seem plausible at all. Her grudge simply doesn't make sense to me unless it's personal, especially since one isn't even likely to meet any Dalish in alleyways.

Well, given she's fully capable of beating a nobleman to death for oppressing peasants she's never met...

[Iakus]

There's certainly an element of that, for sure. It's clear that some Dalish talked down to her at some stage and dismissed her as not a proper elf. My point was that it's the aloof attitude and rejection of her as not being a proper elf that caused her to raise that barrier where she ridicules everything to do with them, but she's perhaps not so incurious about their history as she paints herself.

Maybe. Or maybe it's just something she's picked up over the years.  She's undoubtedly had a very colorful past.

[Rel Fexive]

There's certainly an element of that, for sure. It's clear that some Dalish talked down to her at some stage and dismissed her as not a proper elf. My point was that it's the aloof attitude and rejection of her as not being a proper elf that caused her to raise that barrier where she ridicules everything to do with them, but she's perhaps not so incurious about their history as she paints herself.

I'd have to agree with this. I would think her attitude towards them can only stem from a bad personal experience with some Dalish some time previously.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I feel like yes she must have had first encounters with Dalish at some point I suppose given how very specifically personally she takes it. Especially since she doesn't seem to have the same "Elves should just be people" perspective when it comes to Dwarves or Qunari. I don't know if she would have joined a Dalish clan, they would have had to accept her in the first place to do that and her attitude seems to be based on not being accepted.

 

The clan in the Masked Empire is written to be almost cartoonishly racist. One of their elders told Celene that "[human] nature pollutes us." And their Keeper says he would rather every single human and City Elf in Orlais die before he would consider returning to live in the Dales. He also describes pity for the City Elves as misguided. It's possible Sera stumbled across somebody like that, but then again it does seem like this is an attitude that she'd experienced gets told over and over, so I have no idea what person or people would be around her long enough to do that. 

 

But her hatred of elfiness doesn't just apply to Dalish Elves. They are just the most potent expression of it. She also hates City Elves' Tree of the People in alienages. 

 

Maybe there was no specific backstory written for her, maybe she was just written with the idea of being an in universe participant of all the elf/anti-elf arguments on BSN.

 

With regards to her future, I've given more thought to what I'd previously said. The furthest I could ever see her coming around on "elfiness" is if she ever fully sees just how downtrodden they are (and that's a HUGE if) she might stop resenting their community and start being especially spiteful to nobles who pick on Alienages in addition to everything else she was doing, but she would never dedicate herself specifically to elven problems. 

 

If some of the Dalish formed some kind of elven Anti-Dread Wolf brigade in response to Solas' plans, Sera might join it, but she'd be doing it for probably the the most Anti-Elfy reasons she has. That would be an uneasy alliance if there ever was one.

[Bowie Hawkins]

So, this here happened...

 

 

I totally squeed when that happened to me.

 

[Bowie Hawkins]

Happily, I support the evolution of elven culture as well. Which necessitates that it not be utterly devoured by human culture.

 

Anyway, regarding Sera, this is my headcanon for her, because it's the only way she makes sense to me: Sera briefly joined a Dalish clan at some point in the past, and things went very badly wrong. Like, they were all psycho fundamentalists, or they slaughtered a human village for no real reason, or she was raped by the Keeper, or something. And she had a Dalish girlfriend from said clan, who dumped her for not going along with everything because it made her insufficiently elfy.

 

It's more likely that she encountered a Dalish elf like Velanna, who treated City elves like they were something foul-smelling she'd stepped in.

[Xilizhra]

I feel like yes she must have had first encounters with Dalish at some point I suppose given how very specifically personally she takes it. Especially since she doesn't seem to have the same "Elves should just be people" perspective when it comes to Dwarves or Qunari. I don't know if she would have joined a Dalish clan, they would have had to accept her in the first place to do that and her attitude seems to be based on not being accepted.

 

The clan in the Masked Empire is written to be almost cartoonishly racist. One of their elders told Celene that "[human] nature pollutes us." And their Keeper says he would rather every single human and City Elf in Orlais die before he would consider returning to live in the Dales. He also describes pity for the City Elves as misguided. It's possible Sera stumbled across somebody like that, but then again it does seem like this is an attitude that she'd experienced gets told over and over, so I have no idea what person or people would be around her long enough to do that. 

 

But her hatred of elfiness doesn't just apply to Dalish Elves. They are just the most potent expression of it. She also hates City Elves' Tree of the People in alienages. 

 

Maybe there was no specific backstory written for her, maybe she was just written with the idea of being an in universe participant of all the elf/anti-elf arguments on BSN.

 

With regards to her future, I've given more thought to what I'd previously said. The furthest I could ever see her coming around on "elfiness" is if she ever fully sees just how downtrodden they are (and that's a HUGE if) she might stop resenting their community and start being especially spiteful to nobles who pick on Alienages in addition to everything else she was doing, but she would never dedicate herself specifically to elven problems. 

 

If some of the Dalish formed some kind of elven Anti-Dread Wolf brigade in response to Solas' plans, Sera might join it, but she'd be doing it for probably the the most Anti-Elfy reasons she has. That would be an uneasy alliance if there ever was one.

Well, she does implicitly join Clan Lavellan if she marries a Dalish Inquisitor.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

She doesn't actually meet any of them though or plan to spend time with the clan, does she?

[YourFunnyUncle]

She doesn't actually meet any of them though or plan to spend time with the clan, does she?

 

Not explicitly, but she does use the Jennies to check up on them for the Inquisitor in Trespasser. Also we already know that they are among the more tolerant clans and if they are alive, they're living in a city. I could see it happening.

 

Edit: And look how much more tolerant she is after just two years. By the time of the next game she could easily have chilled out much further.

 

 

Edit 2: I think her anti-"Elfy Elf" stance is more fiery than her anti-noble stance in the main game because it's personal and centred on things that happened to her, and not just on general injustice in the world. The thing is though that time can heal such wounds, whereas the social structures of Thedas with regard to the Nobility being in power and abusing it remain intact. I don't think she'll ever stop being a Jenny, but I do think that her disdain for "Elfy Elves" will continue to diminish with time, if she remains in an environment in which she feels accepted.

[Serza]

If they accept her? Definitely.

[FemHawke FTW]

if she remains in an environment in which she feels accepted.

To quote the Beatles "All you need is love"

[The Loyal Nub]

Just finished a run through of Trespasser with my Elf rogue. Married Sera with my Elf and in the ending Sera stays with the Inquisition and does not leave. Which now leaves me wondering if Sera might turn out to be the Elf alternative to Solas down the road (depends on which ending they make canon I suppose)? The "third way" between Solas and the Dalish.

[Lunatica]

Sera is My Inquisitor's best mate

[Xilizhra]

Just finished a run through of Trespasser with my Elf rogue. Married Sera with my Elf and in the ending Sera stays with the Inquisition and does not leave. Which now leaves me wondering if Sera might turn out to be the Elf alternative to Solas down the road (depends on which ending they make canon I suppose)? The "third way" between Solas and the Dalish.

How would she be between them? The Dalish are the centrists; Sera's the opposite extreme to Solas.

[The Loyal Nub]

How would she be between them? The Dalish are the centrists; Sera's the opposite extreme to Solas.

 

The Dalish are centrists? You've got a mighty funny view of centrism. I'd put both Solas and the Dalish at the far-right of Elven politics. Different only in perhaps the way Monarchism is different from Fascism.

 

The Dalish are ethnocentric nationalists and Solas is a reactionary conservative.

[Xilizhra]

The Dalish are centrists? You've got a mighty funny view of centrism. I'd put both Solas and the Dalish at the far-right of Elven politics. Different only in perhaps the way Monarchism is different from Fascism.

 

The Dalish are ethnocentric nationalists and Solas is a reactionary conservative.

Centrists on that spectrum. And saying that the Dalish are all far-right is ludicrous when we have clans like Lavellan (aside from the fact that there is no left or right in Thedas, or at least no left).

[The Loyal Nub]

Centrists on that spectrum. And saying that the Dalish are all far-right is ludicrous when we have clans like Lavellan (aside from the fact that there is no left or right in Thedas, or at least no left).

 

Oh please if we can't make those comparisons then we cannot use RL Earth terms like "centrist." The Lavellan aside most of the Dalish are pretty insular and rather phobic to outsiders. If they were on this earth they'd be right-wing to me.

[Iakus]

Oh please if we can't make those comparisons then we cannot use RL Earth terms like "centrist." The Lavellan aside most of the Dalish are pretty insular and rather phobic to outsiders. If they were on this earth they'd be right-wing to me.

Well, if the definition of an "extremist" is "willing to kill every man woman and child on Thedas to bring back the good old days which really weren't that great to begin with"  then I suppose the rigidly tradition, murderously isolationist Dalish are pretty laid-back in comparison 

[FemHawke FTW]

Just finished a run through of Trespasser with my Elf rogue. Married Sera with my Elf and in the ending Sera stays with the Inquisition and does not leave. Which now leaves me wondering if Sera might turn out to be the Elf alternative to Solas down the road (depends on which ending they make canon I suppose)? The "third way" between Solas and the Dalish.

I would love it if Sera's in DA4, either working through the Jennies or as part of the Inquisition. That would be so awesome!
Also wasn't it sweet at the end of Trespasser when Sera came back to stand by her wifey?

[SwobyJ]

Centrists on that spectrum. And saying that the Dalish are all far-right is ludicrous when we have clans like Lavellan (aside from the fact that there is no left or right in Thedas, or at least no left).

 

All Dalish may not be far-right, but the setting makes very clear that clans like Lavellan are moderate (or even rather liberal) outliers. Bioware likes to show exceptions to things but this doesn't change the generality much.

 

This doesn't necessarily make them only bad (I do not see politics that way, in an isolated line spectrum) - one can certainly argue that the left of elven society really is just selling out their kind to exist as an always lesser-than class of human society - but I'd say that from both the lore and experiences of most Dalish material in Dragon Age, they mostly range from right to far right. They rarely deal with others, they rarely consider themselves a singular (as opposed to multiple-coexisting) non-superior kind compared to others, and they have a common attitude that the world would be better off with the shemlen simply removed, by their own hands if possible (even though they're now scattered and accept this is not presently possible).

 

I would argue there's a left in Thedas, even if you can call it corrupt or lying or dangerous etc. Throughout the stories and politics of Thedas, there are those that advocate and pursue equality between peoples instead of accepting that there will always be inequality so better to be on top then on the bottom. This is not the, say, American economic political left right of public and private ownership focus, but it is still an ideological spectrum with economic and political differences. Sure the Thedas left would at least mostly still be on the right (to various degrees on or off our normal scale) in real life modern society, but I definitely see differences in political approach by factions, peoples, and their beliefs.

[SwobyJ]

Well, if the definition of an "extremist" is "willing to kill every man woman and child on Thedas to bring back the good old days which really weren't that great to begin with"  then I suppose the rigidly tradition, murderously isolationist Dalish are pretty laid-back in comparison 

 

Solas might be considered an extreme progressive/regressive (depending on how you look at it), and this can be a whole other political dimension than just left or right. The Dalish by and large may be moderate compared to him, but he's clearly now bringing many of them more to his side, and he's likely exploiting their attitudes that may more typically be considered more politically right wing, even if his greater intent may be for a sort of left wing goal (the mortal non-elves of Thedas just being an 'unfortunate casualty' of this cause). His obsession with elves, while possibly understandable, places him as beyond the cares of most mortals and even though you can have a relationship with him that mitigates this, and even though he apparently loathes the concept, he places himself in a place of a sort of god that can ignore or dismiss the normal politics of Thedas, if only for the sake of his vision of the elves.

 

Its not even necessarily that much of his intent for Thedas is bad. Its just at least that he will so willingly do it destructively, rapidly, and focused so much on Elves that even if he has sadness and regret about it, its not enough for him to have a little 'Sera' in him that recognizes or at least cares enough that people are always just people - descriptions of people varying being another matter - and that people are important, not just 'THE People'.

[The Loyal Nub]

Solas might be considered an extreme progressive/regressive (depending on how you look at it), and this can be a whole other political dimension than just left or right. The Dalish by and large may be moderate compared to him, but he's clearly now bringing many of them more to his side, and he's likely exploiting their attitudes that may more typically be considered more politically right wing, even if his greater intent may be for a sort of left wing goal (the mortal non-elves of Thedas just being an 'unfortunate casualty' of this cause). His obsession with elves, while possibly understandable, places him as beyond the cares of most mortals and even though you can have a relationship with him that mitigates this, and even though he apparently loathes the concept, he places himself in a place of a sort of god that can ignore or dismiss the normal politics of Thedas, if only for the sake of his vision of the elves.

 

Its not even necessarily that much of his intent for Thedas is bad. Its just at least that he will so willingly do it destructively, rapidly, and focused so much on Elves that even if he has sadness and regret about it, its not enough for him to have a little 'Sera' in him that recognizes or at least cares enough that people are always just people - descriptions of people varying being another matter - and that people are important, not just 'THE People'.

 

Really well stated. I bolded a part I particularly like that I think Xil and Iakus miss.

 

If the Dalish are flocking to Solas, and the ending of Trespasser certainly implies this, then it is because he appeals to their folk nationalist beliefs and their anti-shemlen xenophobia. Solas may have some pie-in-the-sky esotericness about him but he is playing with some pretty nasty genocidal fire and no matter the history between Elves and Humans on Thedas there is no excuse for it or moral justification nevermind the fact that the Dwarves and the Qun will also be a part of this mass extinction of groups to make a paradise for the Elves.

[Xilizhra]

Really well stated. I bolded a part I particularly like that I think Xil and Iakus miss.

 

If the Dalish are flocking to Solas, and the ending of Trespasser certainly implies this, then it is because he appeals to their folk nationalist beliefs and their anti-shemlen xenophobia. Solas may have some pie-in-the-sky esotericness about him but he is playing with some pretty nasty genocidal fire and no matter the history between Elves and Humans on Thedas there is no excuse for it or moral justification nevermind the fact that the Dwarves and the Qun will also be a part of this mass extinction of groups to make a paradise for the Elves.

This is assuming he's told them everything about the plan, yes?

[The Loyal Nub]

This is assuming he's told them everything about the plan, yes?

 

I am sure he's not told them it's just a stroll into the woods.