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[Rel Fexive]

I think it won over quite a few people, but not many of the total haters, obviously.

[YourFunnyUncle]

Did Trespasser soften people on Sera at all, since she lets go of some of her anger + can provide the Inquisitor with a kickass prosthetic? Or is it same old, same old, haha.

I've seen some people say that it changed their opinion of her. Others predictably still dislike her. Of course there's a certain other elf who's hogged the limelight a bit since Trespasser came out for some reason...

[Beerfish]

Said before, I'll say it again.  One of the very best BioWare characters of all time in many regards.

[veeia]

I've seen some people say that it changed their opinion of her. Others predictably still dislike her. Of course there's a certain other elf who's hogged the limelight a bit since Trespasser came out for some reason...

 

I can only assume you mean Charter. I'll accept this limelight hogging from another gay elf.

 

Glad to see some people enjoyed her after that. I'm sure there will always be haters! Universally beloved isn't the sign of a well written character usually, anyway.

[Sifr]

I think it won over quite a few people, but not many of the total haters, obviously.

 

I suspect that the people who disliked Sera probably avoided speaking to her in Trespasser, so they failed to notice that her character had clearly evolved and matured in the two-three years since the start of Inquisition.

 

The Sera from Inquisition would never have shown the consideration and sensitivity towards the Elf Inquisitor we see in Trespasser, taking the time to ask how they were after finding out the truth about the Elven "Gods". That's not to say that Sera doesn't sound a little chuffed to learn she was right, but rather than rubbing that in, she puts her own feelings on the subject aside to take care of a friend who's world just turned upside down.

 

Sera, Isabela and Morrigan all have arcs that cause them to become better people as the result of their friendship/romance with the protagonist. While Sera was never selfish or self-serving like Morrigan or Isabela, it's fair to say that her fatal flaw was being self-involved and failing to take other people's feelings into account most of the time.

[veeia]

I do think it's interesting that often the flaw that Sera has (failing to see things from others perspective and have empathy for it) is why many people dislike her (they refuse to see things from her perspective and have empathy for it). Of course there are people who can understand why Sera is the way she is and still dislike her, but a large part of the reactions to her sounds exactly like how she'd react, lmao.

 

Anyway, reflecting more...the reason I like her growth in Trespasser so much is that it's very natural. You don't get an indication that Sera is no longer reactive, defensive, or has tendencies towards black/white thinking, just that she's learned to temper that and prioritize her own well being/the emotions of people she cares about. Which makes sense because her position is more stable, but is also a part of growing up in general. You either recognize when your flaws are hurting you (and by alienating people around you, you hurt yourself) and compensate, or you don't and life becomes much more difficult. I think the latter is unfortunately more common for people who lack support and have been through difficult situations, so I like that the way it resolves gives Sera the credit for figuring herself out, but that it is a process that is made possible because of the stability given by a supportive Inquisitor. No one "fixes" her, but she's not expected to have done it all by herself. It's a really nice arc.

[Rel Fexive]

Agreeded!

[YourFunnyUncle]

I do think it's interesting that often the flaw that Sera has (failing to see things from others perspective and have empathy for it) is why many people dislike her (they refuse to see things from her perspective and have empathy for it). Of course there are people who can understand why Sera is the way she is and still dislike her, but a large part of the reactions to her sounds exactly like how she'd react, lmao.

 

Anyway, reflecting more...the reason I like her growth in Trespasser so much is that it's very natural. You don't get an indication that Sera is no longer reactive, defensive, or has tendencies towards black/white thinking, just that she's learned to temper that and prioritize her own well being/the emotions of people she cares about. Which makes sense because her position is more stable, but is also a part of growing up in general. You either recognize when your flaws are hurting you (and by alienating people around you, you hurt yourself) and compensate, or you don't and life becomes much more difficult. I think the latter is unfortunately more common for people who lack support and have been through difficult situations, so I like that the way it resolves gives Sera the credit for figuring herself out, but that it is a process that is made possible because of the stability given by a supportive Inquisitor. No one "fixes" her, but she's not expected to have done it all by herself. It's a really nice arc.

 

This is what I like and what makes Sera different to standard BioWare characters. Some people say that the player doesn't affect her as you can't persuade her to change her mind about much through argument, but actually the Inquisitor's actions do serve to alter her views, it's just done in a more subtle way by giving her a supportive environment in which she can start to change of her own free will.

[FemHawke FTW]

This is what I like and what makes Sera different to standard BioWare characters. Some people say that the player doesn't affect her as you can't persuade her to change her mind about much through argument, but actually the Inquisitor's actions do serve to alter her views, it's just done in a more subtle way by giving her a supportive environment in which she can start to change of her own free will.

One of the things I really like about Sera, she's her own person with her own autonomy. Helps make the game more immersive than having everyone be "We bow to your obvious superiority oh mighty PC!"

[vertigomez]

This is what I like and what makes Sera different to standard BioWare characters. Some people say that the player doesn't affect her as you can't persuade her to change her mind about much through argument, but actually the Inquisitor's actions do serve to alter her views, it's just done in a more subtle way by giving her a supportive environment in which she can start to change of her own free will.

One of the things I really like about Sera, she's her own person with her own autonomy. Helps make the game more immersive than having everyone be "We bow to your obvious superiority oh mighty PC!"

THIS. ALL OF THIS.

It's funny how people complain that the almighty PC has too much power over characters' lives (hardening/softening Leliana, Tal'Vashoth-ing Bull, getting Merrill to destroy the Eluvian or Anders to side with the Templars) and then turn around and complain that they can't completely control someone (Sera and Fenris re: mages, Alistair and Sebastian ragequitting over Loghain and Anders, Alistair not saying **** you to Ferelden and putting a mage/elf/dwarf on the throne).

Devs can't win. All they can do is write believable characters with interesting backstories and a variety of motivations and hope that people don't ragequit over it.

[Xilizhra]

THIS. ALL OF THIS.

It's funny how people complain that the almighty PC has too much power over characters' lives (hardening/softening Leliana, Tal'Vashoth-ing Bull, getting Merrill to destroy the Eluvian or Anders to side with the Templars) and then turn around and complain that they can't completely control someone (Sera and Fenris re: mages, Alistair and Sebastian ragequitting over Loghain and Anders, Alistair not saying **** you to Ferelden and putting a mage/elf/dwarf on the throne).

Devs can't win. All they can do is write believable characters with interesting backstories and a variety of motivations and hope that people don't ragequit over it.

Well, being able to get Anders to side with the templars and being unable to get Alistair to not leave the Grey Wardens if Loghain is involved is a pretty ridiculous combination. But! In Sera's case, my problem isn't nearly so much her opinions as it is the inability to engage with them. I love having people with controversial opinions around... as long as I can discuss my own with them in some amount of depth. Dialogue is what's important, and in Sera's case, there are too many de facto monologues that the PC can't respond to. So, really, it comes down to "it's not you, it's me."

[Phonantiphon]

I'm avoiding reading literally any of this thread as I've not completed the base game yet - (fingers in ears, lalalalalalalalalalala...) - however I just figured I'd say that I personally really dig Sera's character and her look.

 

So far, she's come across as a real stand out character for me, even in an ensemble of stand out characters - (don't even get me started on Cassandra!) - I just think she's really well written and nicely different, so I'm definitely in the fan-club!

[FemHawke FTW]

I'm avoiding reading literally any of this thread as I've not completed the base game yet - (fingers in ears, lalalalalalalalalalala...) - however I just figured I'd say that I personally really dig Sera's character and her look.
 
So far, she's come across as a real stand out character for me, even in an ensemble of stand out characters - (don't even get me started on Cassandra!) - I just think she's really well written and nicely different, so I'm definitely in the fan-club!

Glad to meet you Phonantiphon, and let me be the first to say welcome to the thread! I won't say anything to spoil your first playthrough all I'll say is time with Sera will keep getting better Have fun and enjoy singing the Seranade!

[veeia]

Well, being able to get Anders to side with the templars and being unable to get Alistair to not leave the Grey Wardens if Loghain is involved is a pretty ridiculous combination. But! In Sera's case, my problem isn't nearly so much her opinions as it is the inability to engage with them. I love having people with controversial opinions around... as long as I can discuss my own with them in some amount of depth. Dialogue is what's important, and in Sera's case, there are too many de facto monologues that the PC can't respond to. So, really, it comes down to "it's not you, it's me."

 

I feel this. I wish we had those particular opportunities too. I have a hard time with Sera and Lavellan because I think it's a fascinating dynamic but there are so many dialogue options that I would have liked to have had because I felt like I had to make my Lav either exceptionally mature and understanding or  avoidant/passive aggressive in order to justify not saying anything while having strong positions. With my other characters, I have different issues, but i have run into other  frustrations with the dialogue options with Sera. I feel like the PC when interacting with Sera is always placed in a position of not understanding her or the Red Jennies, which makes more sense for a human noble raised in traditional values than it does the other races, particularly Cadash and Adaar, given their criminal/mercenary backgrounds and no cultural conflict that could come into play like Lavellan/Sera. So I spent a lot of time in the game getting lectured by Sera on things I think my character should already understand because my character was expressing things that i felt conflicted with their background.

 

I think figuring out that balance between needing Sera's narrative to be coherent/informative and for the player to react is difficult, and there are limits to what they can do, so I forgive that even though it's frustrating. What I do hope is that for the next game, they start knowing what range of characters they're going to support, so it's integrated more into the conversations, and that they also continue with the exact same personality/dialogue system they have now, so they can focus more on improving it and making it more sophisticated. I was talking about this in a different thread earlier, but I think they were doing something really interesting with Cassandra where she would remember what you'd said before about faith and integrate that into what she was saying. I would love it if there were more opportunities for things like that, because I think it could be the basis for forming meaningful conflicts/confrontations between you and your companions that don't rely on particular branching paths being taken.

[SardaukarElite]

On the whole, I feel the weakest thing about Sera's story is that the player has very little control over what their character does beyond whether they go along with it.

 

...And the choice of how afraid of spiders they are, that was cool. 

[Rel Fexive]

There's always an element of one's character being slightly out of one's control in some cases, and missed opportunities for responses to things.

Like in Trespasser where someone complains about the Inquisition thinking it is the solution to every problem - there's no opportunity to respond with "What? Where have you been for the last five years?!"

I guess they can only write so many responses into the game without overloading the selector, sadly.

[veeia]

I agree, and tbh, most of the time when I wanted to have a different way to respond or approach a problem, it was related to playing Cadash, Adaar, or Lavellan and not always because of their race, but also their backgrounds. I mean, there are times when it would have been nice to have other options when I was playing Trevelyan, but a lot of the time that was because I wanted to play a different type of character than the game (and Trev's) backstory would reasonably allow, so I didn't expect it to support that. I think the decision to add races later was wonderful, but there are some oversights that probably wouldn't have happened if it was planned from the beginning. It's possible Sera in particular is affected by this, because if you assume the game is only meant to be played by someone who's coming from a noble background who has lived their life in either relative privilege or isolation (like the mage), the limitations of response to her make more sense.

[Rel Fexive]

Yeah, it sounds unfortunately plausible.  Let's hope DA4 gets that personal aspect in right from the start!

[veeia]

I have a lot of hope for DA4. DA:I was in a lot of ways a transition game: they were transitioning engines, they were transitioning away from the system they did in DA2 because of backlash and trying to find a more successful way to do a voiced player created protagonist, they were developing new mechanics and ways of telling the stories based on more advanced computer capabilities but still having to deal with the transition from older to newer gen consoles, etc. So I think a lot of it was a learning experience, but since they're keeping the engine and it was an overall success, they don't have to do another turn like they did from da2 to da:I, and will be able to improve instead of reinvent. We'll still be frustrated and dissecting ways they "should" have done it afterwards, like all games, haha, but I think it will probably be less frustrating overall. We'll see though! 

[vertigomez]

Well, being able to get Anders to side with the templars and being unable to get Alistair to not leave the Grey Wardens if Loghain is involved is a pretty ridiculous combination. But! In Sera's case, my problem isn't nearly so much her opinions as it is the inability to engage with them. I love having people with controversial opinions around... as long as I can discuss my own with them in some amount of depth. Dialogue is what's important, and in Sera's case, there are too many de facto monologues that the PC can't respond to. So, really, it comes down to "it's not you, it's me."

I don't know if I agree with that first statement, simply because it's tied into both characters' feelings about their past, their future, and what's fundamentally important to them... but my point is more that you can't make players happy either way, because you're either giving them too much or too little power to influence the people around them, and few people agree on what's "too much" or "too little".

More in-depth dialogue is always good, though. Though I think that could apply to many characters. I definitely would have liked to discuss the Qun and what it means to be Tal-Vashoth or Vashoth with Bull. Or with Cullen, Lavellan can ask him if her being an elf (or a mage) is a problem and you get a brief comment. And poor Blackwall has almost no race or background specific content aside from mentioning your Carta past if you're playing a dwarf.

Generally all of this would have been better if multiple races were intended from the start, so the writers could really build dialogue trees and interesting discussions out of this sort of content. But it was even an issue in DAO and DA2 - you can ask Alistair if your race is an issue, you can ask Fenris if your being an apostate is an issue, etc. but all it amounts to is a line or two of dialogue. Fingers crossed for DA4?

[Xilizhra]

Well, I just finished a Sera-romancing Adaar's main playthrough. It was great until the very end, because the post-Temple of Mythal conversation is, astonishingly, even worse as a nonelf. Mostly because it drives the point home that, while every other companion is saying their final goodbyes to you and such, Sera's entire conversation is spent obsessing over one of many dungeon crawls. Her issues with it made a sort of sense with an elf Inquisitor, since it could tie into her insecurity, but here, it's just pointless, immersion-breaking, and generally bad.

[veeia]

I found that very jarring on my nonromanced Cadash which was my blind PT. Sera had been my characters BFF in the game so ending it on a sour note right before the final battle was weird, but the post battle convo at Skyhold was nice.

With my Adaar, the conversation was less polarizing (Adaar didn't argue it as much) so it wasn't as bad. It's also possible that since I knew the order of events, I wasnt as bothered, plus with the extra romance scenes, Adaar had more insight into how Sera processed things.

My favorite tho was with my male Cadash, who argued with her during that scene a little bit, but then triggered her rooftop cookies scene right after. It felt like they had argued and she cooled off and wanted a truce and understanding before the final fight. It's probably harder to trigger that order with the romance though, I imagine.

[FemHawke FTW]

I loved being her BFF with my male Cadash as well! I really liked having them hangout by themselves on Sera's roof. Always seemed like a good way for my Cadash to unwind (aside from visiting his lady love Cassandra ) before having to go out and be "The Inquisitor" again.

[vertigomez]

Elves with magic-

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Sera and Solas-

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Bae-

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[Bowie Hawkins]

Sera, Isabela and Morrigan all have arcs that cause them to become better people as the result of their friendship/romance with the protagonist. While Sera was never selfish or self-serving like Morrigan or Isabela, it's fair to say that her fatal flaw was being self-involved and failing to take other people's feelings into account most of the time.

 

Sera is the way that she is because of all the people in her past who didn't just refuse to take her feelings into account but rather actively refused to treat her as if any of her feelings were anything other than stupid nonsense.