239 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

1. Perma-death- The present system in DAO and DA2 has no consequences. The gamer can sacrifice all the members of the party save one because the gamer knows at the end of the fight the whole party will still be alive. Now, put in perma -death and the thinking on how you do something is different. Sacrifices become more important. More strategy and tactics has to be used to defeat the enemy and keep companions alive..

 

Thing is, what kind of consequence would be acceptable to the average player of this game? Losing a companion is one thing, but the real question is: how inconvenient would it be to undo it? If I have to go back 20-30 hours in my progress to bring this character back, then I'd have to condemn it to Hades. Even then, some quests can be pretty long in themselves, especially if you're a compulsive quest hound and also pursue all the little side things that may be scattered about along the various paths (think about An Admirable Topsider, Asunder, etc.), which all eat lots of time because the caves are long and all of those things may be scattered about in different parts of the Deep Roads in order for the quests to be complete. Some of these side quests are a bit of a chore, but may yield good items or xp. If at the end of the entire main quest, a companion dies in a boss battle, and I don't accept it, I gotta go through all that crap again. While it might give some of the more hardcore folks a particular glee, I know for a fact that I'd be frustrated enough that one playthrough will be my only playthrough.

[SiN82]

I always tought a belivable world is far more interesting than a realistic one.

 

Limited inventory, no hud, perma death, worn weapons ecc... Are we sure these features can help a game to feel more realistic?

 

Why i don't see the same people asking for these features complain about lifless cities, lobotomized npcs, ridiculous female bikini armors or the 2 tons sword on the back of their slim super model pc?

[metatheurgist]

Chainmail bikinis and buster swords are a common complaint. Most people accept that the limitations of computers and programming mean that NPCs are largely morons and you have the same 5 NPCs walking the streets, going through the same motions everyday (if you're lucky enough to have a day/night).

[SiN82]

Chainmail bikinis and buster swords are a common complaint. Most people accept that the limitations of computers and programming mean that NPCs are largely morons and you have the same 5 NPCs walking the streets, going through the same motions everyday (if you're lucky enough to have a day/night).

 

About chainmail bikinis and buster sword, i don't know if is really a common complaint. If you look at Skyrim / Dragon Age mod comunity, you can find tons of mod of look a like pornstar characters and stupid armors...so people demanding for realism but in the same time likes those kind of things?

 

Stupid NPC were acceptable for old hardware... but now? There are really no excuse to have 3 puppet going around cities in circle 

[Rawgrim]

The people who want realism, arn`t the same people downloading chainmail-bikini mods...

[Tayah]

@OP in answer to your question about templar specialisations and lyrium in DAO Alister tells you that actually lyrium isn't required for templar abilities to work, it just enhances them and makes them easier for the chantry to control as they also control the lyrium trade. It's an in-game lore answer whether it satisfies your realism criteria I don't know. 

 

I think the biggest problem with adding a lot more micro-management systems to this kind of game as I suspect your suggestions lead to is that many gamers have a limited amount of time they can devote to gaming and this would frustrate them as they prefer to move the story along more quickly so they can accomplish as much as possible in what time they can find for games. In fact that is why I think many games don't have that kind of realism/survivalist mechanic, because people seem to have less time and therefore less patience for it wanting instead to escape and have fun. At least that's my impression/opinion.

[CybAnt1]

I always tought a belivable world is far more interesting than a realistic one.

 

Limited inventory, no hud, perma death, worn weapons ecc... Are we sure these features can help a game to feel more realistic?

 

Why i don't see the same people asking for these features complain about lifless cities, lobotomized npcs, ridiculous female bikini armors or the 2 tons sword on the back of their slim super model pc?

 

Because some people care more about visual (item or people) realism, others movement (in or out of combat) realism, others 'behavioral' realism, others 'environmental' realism (weather, etc.), others 'limitation of supplies' realism, others 'consequences of battle' realism, ... nobody's wanting the same things or using the word the same way. 

 

At the end of the day, we are in an imaginary world, filled with fantasy creatures and magic. Some people are simply making gameplay requests but defending & couching them with appeals to realism (OK, I admit I resemble that remark). In all honesty, though, if realism is your driving passion, you really need to try out a sim. If you want medieval combat simulated as real to the real thing as can be done on a computer, go get Kingdom Come. If you want the feel of archery like using a bow and arrow in the real world, where you need to pay attention to wind conditions, get an archery sim. 

 

Dragon Age is not a sim. It's also not simulating the medieval world, however much this other planet is based loosely on medieval Earth, unfortunately they do it a bit more than typical fantasy settings, like say Conan's Hyboria, WoW's Azeroth, or D & D's Faerun, so that makes (apparently) some people want it to have medieval morays (or whatever they believed medieval morays to be). 

[metatheurgist]

About chainmail bikinis and buster sword, i don't know if is really a common complaint. If you look at Skyrim / Dragon Age mod comunity, you can find tons of mod of look a like pornstar characters and stupid armors...so people demanding for realism but in the same time likes those kind of things?

Here's a thread from the old BSN complaining about "Boob Plate":
http://social.biowar...ndex/16264416/1

There were a few other threads from memory. Haven't seen one pop up on this forum yet.

There's a request for realistic swords in this forum:
http://forum.bioware...lisctic-swords/

I think that's a fairly popular topic too.

The thing about a large audience is that you're going to get some people that want one thing and another that want something else.
 

Stupid NPC were acceptable for old hardware... but now? There are really no excuse to have 3 puppet going around cities in circle

Gotta remember that consoles are a factor. And it still takes time for someone to create the behaviours and NPCs and $$$ is limited.

[Realmzmaster]

@OP in answer to your question about templar specialisations and lyrium in DAO Alister tells you that actually lyrium isn't required for templar abilities to work, it just enhances them and makes them easier for the chantry to control as they also control the lyrium trade. It's an in-game lore answer whether it satisfies your realism criteria I don't know. 

 

I think the biggest problem with adding a lot more micro-management systems to this kind of game as I suspect your suggestions lead to is that many gamers have a limited amount of time they can devote to gaming and this would frustrate them as they prefer to move the story along more quickly so they can accomplish as much as possible in what time they can find for games. In fact that is why I think many games don't have that kind of realism/survivalist mechanic, because people seem to have less time and therefore less patience for it wanting instead to escape and have fun. At least that's my impression/opinion.

 

Bioware is then contradicting it own lore, because in the comics Alistair loses his templar powers because he is not consuming lyrium. It also contradicts the books Gaider wrote in which he states lyrium is required to fuel their powers. The media my change the lore does not.

 

Also gamers seem to have no problem complaining about unrealistic combat? The forum was alive with threads bemoaning the animations for the rogue in DA2. Another thread asking for bowstrings, realistic swords and scabbards. Another thread about how will the weather affect gameplay. All that involves some form of realism,

I believe is more a matter of degree of realism. That line differs between gamers.

[SiN82]

Here's a thread from the old BSN complaining about "Boob Plate":
http://social.biowar...ndex/16264416/1

There were a few other threads from memory. Haven't seen one pop up on this forum yet.

There's a request for realistic swords in this forum:
http://forum.bioware...lisctic-swords/

I think that's a fairly popular topic too.

The thing about a large audience is that you're going to get some people that want one thing and another that want something else.
 

Gotta remember that consoles are a factor. And it still takes time for someone to create the behaviours and NPCs and $$$ is limited.

 

I'm following the topic about the swords and i posted there some hours ago

 

You are right,a large audience means if you please one side of your fan you screw the other one... so it's impossibile find a soultion that is ok for everyone.

 

Anyway about consoles, my main concern is it's there will still be limitation because of PS3 / 360, even if bioware always shown curent gen/pc version, The good thing about cross gen and multiplatform is they can invest more because they have a larger audience than before

[JCFR]

2. Then you no longer have an army if all the re-enforcements are used up. The army is to the breaking point. Defeat may be imminent. Yes you may have to hunker down and hold the position as best as possible. That is what armies and soldiers do.

 

3. Who said the Chantry is a friend of the Inquisitor. The Chantry does what is in its best interest. The Inquisitor may have an ally in the Chantry not necessarily privy to the information the Chantry finds.

 

5. D & D if I am not wrong in its base rules has perma-death (with allowance for resurrection and raise dead), weight, food and water requirements. The spellcasting system requires the party to rest to restore spells.That is in all four renditions of the rules. 

1 I wanna play a RPG not a RTS.  Means: i can use some of my troops to make some situatins easier, but i don't have to, in order to win.

 

2. Well let's see... main Locaiton is Orlais - central of the church... Cassandra - member of intel-agency - is a companion... and the name itself "inquisition"... indicates -for me- it shares some deeper bonds to the church... not to forget, the conflict between Mages and the church is also part of the game.  I don't think the "inquisition" is a neutral order like the grey wardens without much political wieght or anyone to back them up.  Yeah, it doesn't have to mean, it's the right arm of the church - that's more like the templars - and they may have some freedom but still... what do you think happen's with dogs, which constantly bite the hand of their owner/master?

And if there's - like i think - a deeper connection between church and Inquisiton.. why the hell not gaining advantages of it?

 

5. If a  a character died, go to a temple or let your Cleric revive him or her - as you said yourself. That's not exactly "permanent". And sorry, i don't remember  my party having to eat and drink in BG, BG2, IWD or IWD2.  If you want that survival-aspect that bad, then - as a sugestion - kae it optional, so thatothers like me can ignore it.

I didn't want to compare the magic system of DA with D&D since they're so different. In DA there Mana as payment for spells, which makes it more flexible. D&D: The amaount of spells a mage can "remember" is the mana itself. It`s like apples and pears.

[AlanC9]

If at the end of the entire main quest, a companion dies in a boss battle, and I don't accept it, I gotta go through all that crap again. While it might give some of the more hardcore folks a particular glee, I know for a fact that I'd be frustrated enough that one playthrough will be my only playthrough.

I'm not quite following this. Wouldn't you just reload and replay the boss fight? Or are we talking about some sort of resource-based gameplay where the boss fight is unwinnable because you used up too many potions on your way in?

[Realmzmaster]

1 I wanna play a RPG not a RTS.  Means: i can use some of my troops to make some situatins easier, but i don't have to, in order to win.

 

2. Well let's see... main Locaiton is Orlais - central of the church... Cassandra - member of intel-agency - is a companion... and the name itself "inquisition"... indicates -for me- it shares some deeper bonds to the church... not to forget, the conflict between Mages and the church is also part of the game.  I don't think the "inquisition" is a neutral order like the grey wardens without much political wieght or anyone to back them up.  Yeah, it doesn't have to mean, it's the right arm of the church - that's more like the templars - and they may have some freedom but still... what do you think happen's with dogs, which constantly bite the hand of their owner/master?

And if there's - like i think - a deeper connection between church and Inquisiton.. why the hell not gaining advantages of it?

 

5. If a  a character died, go to a temple or let your Cleric revive him or her - as you said yourself. That's not exactly "permanent". And sorry, i don't remember  my party having to eat and drink in BG, BG2, IWD or IWD2.  If you want that survival-aspect that bad, then - as a sugestion - kae it optional, so thatothers like me can ignore it.

I didn't want to compare the magic system of DA with D&D since they're so different. In DA there Mana as payment for spells, which makes it more flexible. D&D: The amaount of spells a mage can "remember" is the mana itself. It`s like apples and pears.

 

1. What is the point in having an army if it is no more than an abstraction? Even the armies in DAO had members that were killed in combat.

 

2. Not all Inquisitions  had religious roots. Some Inquisitions were put together by heads of states not the papal. This Inquisition could be the work of Empress Celene of Orlasis not the Chantry.

3.  If a character died and the party had the necessary money the character may possible be resurrected. The character still had to pass the system shock check. Resurrection was not guaranteed. Also if the main character died in BG1 and BG2 the game was over. You would have to reload. 

 

I have no problem if Bioware implements my suggestions as optional. I still have to suggest to Bioware what I want.

[Rawgrim]

The main character perma-death in Baldur`s Gate had something to do with the Bhaal essence leaving him\her if death occured, I belive.

[Realmzmaster]

The main character perma-death in Baldur`s Gate had something to do with the Bhaal essence leaving him\her if death occured, I belive.

 

How does that explain Sarevok coming back in BG2?

[Tayah]

Bioware is then contradicting it own lore, because in the comics Alistair loses his templar powers because he is not consuming lyrium. It also contradicts the books Gaider wrote in which he states lyrium is required to fuel their powers. The media my change the lore does not.

 

Also gamers seem to have no problem complaining about unrealistic combat? The forum was alive with threads bemoaning the animations for the rogue in DA2. Another thread asking for bowstrings, realistic swords and scabbards. Another thread about how will the weather affect gameplay. All that involves some form of realism,

I believe is more a matter of degree of realism. That line differs between gamers.

I didn't know about the books because I don't read them, as far as I am concerned a games lore should be contained within the game (or it's manuals) simply because many gamers don't read side books associated with games so changing the lore in books is one of my bugbears... I get why you have a big problem with the lyrium thing now at least.

 

Yes I agree realism differs between players and to some degree it differs based on their expectations of a game and what they prioritise as important to them in a particular experience. I also respect your right and the polite manner in which you made your suggestions for the changes you would like to see in game, I would like to respectfully suggest they be optional especially perma death for those of us that get to attached to our companions!

[Cat Lance]

I think the issue here is what master are you trying to serve when creating your game, that is, what is the sort of game one is trying to accomplish?

Food and water requirements don't make sense in a game that does not have a static day/night cycle for one. Da1 was timeless, playing da2 I could have a day or night that lasted all of 5 minutes or several hours of play time. Rendering such a requirement problematic at best, rather impossible in reality.

Death and healing mechanics as well, however, does it serve the master of Fun? Of reaching a wider player base? There will always be hard core players that want every possible aspect of a game to present difficulty, true. But even your average hard core gamer would rather find their difficulty in a game in saving the world than from "oops, I forgot to stop and eat!"

It just doesn't seem to serve in a game oriented to carving out the grand and epic tale of your character, as bioware creates. *shrugs* But this is my view point and I realise others may not share it. I wanted to provide some food for thought.

[Realmzmaster]

I think the issue here is what master are you trying to serve when creating your game, that is, what is the sort of game one is trying to accomplish?

Food and water requirements don't make sense in a game that does not have a static day/night cycle for one. Da1 was timeless, playing da2 I could have a day or night that lasted all of 5 minutes or several hours of play time. Rendering such a requirement problematic at best, rather impossible in reality.

Death and healing mechanics as well, however, does it serve the master of Fun? Of reaching a wider player base? There will always be hard core players that want every possible aspect of a game to present difficulty, true. But even your average hard core gamer would rather find their difficulty in a game in saving the world than from "oops, I forgot to stop and eat!"

It just doesn't seem to serve in a game oriented to carving out the grand and epic tale of your character, as bioware creates. *shrugs* But this is my view point and I realise others may not share it. I wanted to provide some food for thought.

 

I understand what you are stating, but the aspect of fun is different for different gamers. The games that I have played from Wizardry to Ultima also were about carving out the grand and epic tale of the character and still contain a great many of my suggestions. 

 

If you wish to state that the times have changed and many people's tastes have changed I will agree with you, but there are still enough of us who like some (not necessarily) all of my suggestions in there games. For example right now I am playing the beta for Wasteland 2, Might & Magic X, Eschalon III and more coming out.  All which contain many of the suggestions I made. Bioware before DA had quite a few of these suggestions implemented. So fun is relative.

 

I understand many would not agree with my suggestions. I would have no problem with them being optional as long as I can select them.

[Xilizhra]

I have a way to handle the permadeath thing: you get a game over if any one of your companions dies in battle.

[Cat Lance]

I understand what you are stating, but the aspect of fun is different for different gamers. The games that I have played from Wizardry to Ultima also were about carving out the grand and epic tale of the character and still contain a great many of my suggestions. 
 
If you wish to state that the times have changed and many people's tastes have changed I will agree with you, but there are still enough of us who like some (not necessarily) all of my suggestions in there games. For example right now I am playing the beta for Wasteland 2, Might & Magic X, Eschalon III and more coming out.  All which contain many of the suggestions I made. Bioware before DA had quite a few of these suggestions implemented. So fun is relative.
 
I understand many would not agree with my suggestions. I would have no problem with them being optional as long as I can select them.

I certainly did not argue that some will find such mechanics fun. Indeed, I pointed it out.

The two problems with pointing to other company's games and saying, "but they are doing it!" Is 1: Bioware makes a different kind of game. The mechanic focuses much more on Who you choose for your character to be in a Bioware game and the engine devotes quite a bit of computing power to this. 2: If there are so many other games doing these things already, how is it in Bioware's interest to mimic them?

[Realmzmaster]

I certainly did not argue that some will find such mechanics fun. Indeed, I pointed it out.

The two problems with pointing to other company's games and saying, "but they are doing it!" Is 1: Bioware makes a different kind of game. The mechanic focuses much more on Who you choose for your character to be in a Bioware game and the engine devotes quite a bit of computing power to this. 2: If there are so many other games doing these things already, how is it in Bioware's interest to mimic them?

 

I also mentioned in this thread that Bioware use to do them also with their previous games before DA. BG1, BG2, NWN,  and KOTOR had some of the suggestions I list.

[AlanC9]

Food and water requirements don't make sense in a game that does not have a static day/night cycle for one. Da1 was timeless, playing da2 I could have a day or night that lasted all of 5 minutes or several hours of play time. Rendering such a requirement problematic at best, rather impossible in reality.

In practice, even Bio games with a day/night cycle didn't take time seriously.

[Fetunche]

One of the reasons I've played DA multiple times is the lack of tedious chores. Adding tedious gameplay will put people off from playing it again, when I start a new playthrough of DAO the thought of the fade part of the circle quest puts me off a bit.

[Cat Lance]

I also mentioned in this thread that Bioware use to do them also with their previous games before DA. BG1, BG2, NWN,  and KOTOR had some of the suggestions I list.

Yes, they made a choice to move away from that. Maybe we'll see some of them return in da:i, but I wouldn't hold your breath for things that are a life sim.

[Realmzmaster]

I see gamers requesting a super easy narrative mode. I see no reason why I cannot therefore quest a true Nightmare or as Cat Lance likes to put it life sim mode. Fallout: New Vegas had no problem including it as an option for gamers. Witcher 2 has both dark mode and insane as options.

 

I am playing Eschalon III and it allows the gamer to customize the gaming experience. I can select food, water and weight requirements. I can disallow saves if enemies are in the vicinity. The character can get diseased. Lack of food and water can cause dehydration or starvation. If the character carries to much weight fatigue sets in faster. The character has to sleep otherwise sleep deprivation causes a decrease in combat readiness. Weapons and armor that are not properly repaired break. The time spent resting is also the time used to repair equipment if the character has the repair skill.

Give me the option to choose.