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[Cobra's_back]

I just went back to check my notes on this game. The warden never flirted with her early on. Orzammar is the last place I go to. I bought her a mirror. She said I must want something for it. He said it is just a gift for a beautiful woman. That is the romance line that triggered her romance. It happens late in the game and even Wynne doesn't care. Alistair will make a comment to Wynne. Wynne will state that she thinks the Warden has been a positive influence on Morrigan. This romance doesn't have to be forceful or creepy.

[Cobra's_back]

This is the only lines needed to keep the romance active. Nothing else is needed after this point:

 

I few lines from the romance started at 95% before the death of Flemeth:

 

Morrigan:

Tis cold in my tent, all alone.

 

Warden:

Let’s see this tent of yours, then.

 

I’ll leave that up to you. Approves (+7)

 

 

Morrigan:

I see the stories they tell of Grey Warden endurance are not exaggerated.

 

Warden:

Do you really need to talk? Approves (+1) 

 

Morrigan:

I will have my way with you until I am satisfied, out of a sense of fairness if nothing else.

 

Warden:

That sounds like fun. Approves (+2) 

 

Morrigan:

And should you decide not to continue our... misadventure, then so be it. Very simple, is it not?

 

Warden:

I can live with that. Approves (+4)

 

Morrigan give you a ring

 

Warden:

It's a sweet gift. Thank you. Approves (+4)

 

After you kill Flemeth she tells you she has strong feeling for you and doesn’t like it. It is a weakness. She thinks it is a weakness for the Warden as well. You can respond with the following:

 

I don't want to hurt you, Morrigan... Approves (+2)

 

You are worth my distraction. Approves (+2) (end)

 

 

Her romance is still active and she is over 100% nothing else is needed. You don't have to approach her anymore.

 

Just tried this out but didn't save it. The warden can continue to kiss her if he ask her to humor him. She'll say what is this all about. He will say humor me. She will say you are such a romantic and kisses the warden. I just found that conversation branch.

[Corker]

Corker,
 
I just finished the romance. There must be several ways to approach it. My Warden was already at 95% when Morrigan approach the Warden. It was her call not his. This happened before he killed Flemeth. The bedroll happens only once. You don't have to sleep with someone to be in love. She tells him love is a weakness and she is not worth his distraction. He can answer love is not a weakness and she is worth his distraction. He doesn't have to approach her for sex. She is still actively in love with him.

I'm not talking about tent time. I'm talking about when someone says love is foolish, love is weakness, love is a distraction - if I want love, I go somewhere else.

Morrigan the Character really, really wants love. Probably as badly as Alistair, but she'll just never say it. That is a really common romantic narrative arc. The person afraid of love, the person who pushes love away, the person you have to stick with to get them to realize their true feelings. Morrigan gives obvious mixed signals to encourage players to stick with her til the end.

In the real world? That don't fly. You can't "make" anybody realize anything. And people will invent their own "mixed signals" that they've perceiving to justify their attempts to "make you realize that you love me." (Or that "my love is making you better/fixing you.")

That's my problem - that this particular narrative is harmful, because while it can work in a story, it doesn't work in real life. Only it's such a common story that people internalize it and try to match it to patterns in their own lives. They "know" this is true, because they see it play out again and again in the media they consume, and in the real lives of other people trying to live this story.

Does that make sense? I'm not saying that every Warden who romances Morrigan is a horrible person. The game clearly intends for sticking with her to be the loving thing to do, the thing that thaws her frozen heart and restores a measure of her stolen humanity. Anywhere outside of the game, though, insisting on maintaining a relationship with someone who becomes increasingly uncomfortable with it is not usually a good idea. Insisting in maintaining a relationship with someone in the hopes that they will one day change is also not usually a good idea.

The part where many of her flirt lines (golden mirror aside) are often... lewd or disrespectful? looks to me like an attempt to write a "forceful alpha male" aaaaand that's a whole 'nother can of worms. The can is labeled "Women Like Bad Boys" and the contents are problematic.

Sorry, I've thought about these things a lot - not mostly with respect to Morrigan, granted. But I write a lot of 'adult' fanfic, and after a while, you start to really think twice about reinforcing certain storylines. They've already got more collective brainshare than is good, and more positive examples need to get out there.

[Cobra's_back]

Corker;

 

I hear what you are saying. This is not a real relationship. Most of the relationships in this game are pretty silly. Just like we have score points to figure out if the person is in a romance. The romance part of the game is not my favorite. It is just a trophy. 

 

"The part where many of her flirt lines (golden mirror aside) are often... lewd or disrespectful? looks to me like an attempt to write a "forceful alpha male" aaaaand that's a whole 'nother can of worms. The can is labeled "Women Like Bad Boys" and the contents are problematic."

 

So true. This is not a game for my son's to play. My son in college told me he didn't like any video games with romance. He thought they all cheapen it. 

[Corker]

This is the only lines needed to keep the romance active. Nothing else is needed after this point:

What's needed isn't the troubling part. It's what's allowed. You can say some pretty abrupt, dismissive and disrespectful things to Morrigan, and she responds favorably. Like:

Morrigan:
I see the stories they tell of Grey Warden endurance are not exaggerated.
 
Warden:
Do you really need to talk? Approves (+1)

I'm sure there are ways to read this exchange that aren't bad - but it also plays right into a whole host of tired cliches about strong women, stronger men, and all that 'negging' nonsense the pick-up artists are on about. And if the idea was to show that Morrigan appreciates a verbal sparring partner with a mind of his own, surely there's a better way to do that than telling her that, now that tent time's over, she needs to shut up.

[Cobra's_back]

Corker,

 

I agree her lines were pretty bad. I tried to take the path with the least amount of trash. One of the other lines you could have taken instead of "Do you really need to talk" was "Are we done here". That was pretty sad.

 

The "Do you really need to talk" was meant to be playful. Because we can't hear how this is being delivered that is how I wanted to state it.

 

This may be why I like games like Skyrim more. These romance lines are a pain. 

[Nintendali]

I'm not talking about tent time. I'm talking about when someone says love is foolish, love is weakness, love is a distraction - if I want love, I go somewhere else.

Morrigan the Character really, really wants love. Probably as badly as Alistair, but she'll just never say it. That is a really common romantic narrative arc. The person afraid of love, the person who pushes love away, the person you have to stick with to get them to realize their true feelings. Morrigan gives obvious mixed signals to encourage players to stick with her til the end.

In the real world? That don't fly. You can't "make" anybody realize anything. And people will invent their own "mixed signals" that they've perceiving to justify their attempts to "make you realize that you love me." (Or that "my love is making you better/fixing you.")

That's my problem - that this particular narrative is harmful, because while it can work in a story, it doesn't work in real life. Only it's such a common story that people internalize it and try to match it to patterns in their own lives. They "know" this is true, because they see it play out again and again in the media they consume, and in the real lives of other people trying to live this story.

Does that make sense? I'm not saying that every Warden who romances Morrigan is a horrible person. The game clearly intends for sticking with her to be the loving thing to do, the thing that thaws her frozen heart and restores a measure of her stolen humanity. Anywhere outside of the game, though, insisting on maintaining a relationship with someone who becomes increasingly uncomfortable with it is not usually a good idea. Insisting in maintaining a relationship with someone in the hopes that they will one day change is also not usually a good idea.

The part where many of her flirt lines (golden mirror aside) are often... lewd or disrespectful? looks to me like an attempt to write a "forceful alpha male" aaaaand that's a whole 'nother can of worms. The can is labeled "Women Like Bad Boys" and the contents are problematic.

Sorry, I've thought about these things a lot - not mostly with respect to Morrigan, granted. But I write a lot of 'adult' fanfic, and after a while, you start to really think twice about reinforcing certain storylines. They've already got more collective brainshare than is good, and more positive examples need to get out there.

 

Wonderful post. I have to say. though, that I don't think Morrigan wants love, at least not with the Warden. I think that her whole purpose in offering tent time in the first place is to make the Warden more amenable to what she has to offer later. The Dark Ritual was her intent from the get-go. That she develops ~feelings~ is an inconvenience to her, and when they become too strong, she tries to force a breakup. Love really is a weakness for her here, because it threatens to make her lose her resolve to do what she intends to do at the end of the game (abscond with the Warden's newly-conceived demon-baby). She doesn't want the guilt or regret that comes from using someone she actually cares for. I feel like the fact that you can get through that conversation without a break-up isn't anything but her realizing that the break-up isn't really going to spare anyone's feelings when she leaves.

 

And yes, when you stick with her, she throws the Warden's feelings for her in his face in her attempt to get him to agree to the ritual. It's all very "If you really loved me, you'd do this".

[Corker]

Maybe "wants" is a bad word; you're right, she certainly doesn't go looking for it and is disturbed when it happens.  Needs? She's drawn to it despite herself (because despite Flemeth's best efforts, she still is a human being, and we really want those connections - romantic or platonic).

 

Probably my favorite thing about Morrigan is that love (or friendship, but especially love) doesn't make it all better with her.  It touches her and changes her, but she sticks to her duty/plan/whatever you want to call it.  It's not my favorite thing because I think that's the most awesome course of action - I'm just so darn pleased to see the "love conquers all" trope upended like that. 

 

DAO had a lot of trope inversions, which I think is one of the things that made it feel more fresh than Yet Another Fantasy Setting.

[dshoub]

I romanced Morrigan with my human male mage (my canon playthrough), performed the dark ritual with her, and I had him go through the mirror with her. I like to think they're off in some faraway land raising their old god baby together.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

 

In conclusion, recruiting these two when role-playing is absurd. Bioware should have introduced them differently.

 

Er...it's easy to recruit them as a roleplayer. You just have to have created the right PC. Works that way for a lot of companions.

[Cobra's_back]

Wonderful post. I have to say. though, that I don't think Morrigan wants love, at least not with the Warden. I think that her whole purpose in offering tent time in the first place is to make the Warden more amenable to what she has to offer later. The Dark Ritual was her intent from the get-go. That she develops ~feelings~ is an inconvenience to her, and when they become too strong, she tries to force a breakup. Love really is a weakness for her here, because it threatens to make her lose her resolve to do what she intends to do at the end of the game (abscond with the Warden's newly-conceived demon-baby). She doesn't want the guilt or regret that comes from using someone she actually cares for. I feel like the fact that you can get through that conversation without a break-up isn't anything but her realizing that the break-up isn't really going to spare anyone's feelings when she leaves.

 

And yes, when you stick with her, she throws the Warden's feelings for her in his face in her attempt to get him to agree to the ritual. It's all very "If you really loved me, you'd do this".

 

I found some lines that really support your post:

 

Sten: Do you believe you can control him? Did your magic fail you there?  Morrigan: You have no idea what you speak of, Qunari. Sten: Perhaps not. But I know a viper when I see one.

 

Shale: The swamp witch desires something from it. It is aware of the swamp witch's true nature?

 

Zev: You watch me all the time. Morrigan: I’m wondering when you plan to poison your assigned target. 

 

The ring: Morrigan you are too important and we can’t afford to lose you.

 

Leliana: You are in love Morrigan.  Morrigan rages: Love is a weakness. It is a cancer that grows inside and makes one do foolish things. Love is death. I know passion respect equals and power.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

The one way I can see it working is a Warden with a guilty conscience. 

 

It's a way, certainly, but not the only way. One of my Wardens was more practical, believing it's better to have a wasp where you can see him. He was confident/arrogant enough to believe he could kill Zevran if the assassin betrayed them, but also too high-minded to kill a bound and defeated foe.

 

Another of my Wardens recruited him because she was racist enough to want more elf blood on the team, any elf blood, and accepting Zevran annoyed her squabbling human companions. She definitely didn't recruit him because he'd made her laugh for the first time since her cousin was raped. Nope. Not at all. Honest.

 

A third recruited him because she was a former Carta thug, and knew what it was like to have to follow orders from a higher bastard. She was paying the option of freedom from that life forward, like karma.

 

Roleplaying has many ways.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Ah, Sten... Mr I-Lost-My-Sword-Then-Killed-Lotsa-Innocents-In-A-Panicky-Rage. So accepting of his punishment, yet so deadpan about concepts like regret, but that's a-ok because he's qunari and was raised to have the emotional capacity of a brick...except when he loses his soul-weapon.

 

Is it more troubling to recruit an assassin who was contracted to kill you, or an alien giant who may well be mentally unstable?

[Ieldra]

Is it wise for the Warden to go with her in Witch Hunt? 

Wise? I don't really know. What I do know is that it was the only in-character option for my main Warden, and not even because of love, but because he was just too curious about what she was involved in and would risk any danger for knowledge, in particular about that place beyond Thedas Morrigan spoke of. That he could be together with her was just a bonus. An important one, sure, but secondary.

 

Also, I don't exactly feel bad about being manipulated onto the path I took, even if that was what happened which I'm not altogether sure of. As I see it, Morrigan went with the Warden in part because she or Flemeth saw opportunities in it, but they didn't manipulate the Warden. I can't fault her for following those opportunities. After all, I could've refused the DR in the end. I didn't want to though, and that, too, was not for love or emotional manipulation, it was because of curiosity and agreement with her arguments. That it involved sex with her was, yet again, a nice bonus. 

 

Perhaps surprisingly for some, I never felt any kind of resentment towards her, and really, I don't know why people take issue with her behaviour towards the Warden. Parts of her philosophy are disagreeable and she's cruel to Alistair, but I am not seeing anything particularly obnoxious beyond that. You need an emotionally confident and mature Warden for her, someone who can make decisions which aren't ruled by emotion only while still taking those emotions into account, but I didn't have any problem envisioning my main Warden as such.

 

Mainly, what you need to acknowledge with her is that other people have plans of their own and yours aren't the only ones in the world that matter. If you play an unexpected part in their plans, what does it matter if it's not to your detriment, and if it's even to your advantage, why do you still resent it? I really don't get it.

 

Even before Witch Hunt came out, I found the outcome of Morrigan's romance most appropriate. Paradoxically, if she hadn't been the kind of person able and willing to see beyond love to the furtherance of her plans, she wouldn't have been the kind of woman this Warden came to love. The end left hope for the future, and that was enough.

 

Edit:

And I really want a "dislike" button for all those posts that say she's broken and love or friendship will "restore her humanity" and any kind of the same nonsense. There are things she would probably profit from acknowledging, yes, but she's her own person and doesn't need to change to fit conventional preconceptions of what a psychologically healthy human has to be like. Most notably, you don't have to value love over everything else to be that, and I hope her story will continue to acknowledge that.

[Xilizhra]

And I really want a "dislike" button for all those posts that say she's broken and love or friendship will "restore her humanity" and any kind of the same nonsense. There are things she would probably profit from acknowledging, yes, but she's her own person and doesn't need to change to fit conventional preconceptions of what a psychologically healthy human has to be like. Most notably, you don't have to value love over everything else to be that, and I hope her story will continue to acknowledge that.

Well, I think it's fairly indisputable that she was raised in a greatly abusive and damaging environment.

[Ieldra]

Well, I think it's fairly indisputable that she was raised in a greatly abusive and damaging environment.

Yes, but that doesn't mean that (1) there was any permanent damage and (2) if there was, that any healing of such damage involves softening her and making her conform to the conventional image of the emotion-driven woman who wants nothing more than to love and be loved. Or in short: you don't need to be soft to be mentally healthy. Damn. It.

[Corker]

If you're talking about my posts, then I wasn't clear enough.

Someone who cannot form attachments to others, who cannot see them as more than tools to use, is a sociopath. I'm going to stick with saying that's not healthy.

I don't think Morrigan's a sociopath. She's been raised to believe that she should be, and that anything less is weak. If she's not befriended or romanced, she never has a reason to question those beliefs.

If she is befriended or romanced, she can come to realize that, yes, she can care about other people, and it doesn't make her less strong or capable. It doesn't make her "emotion-driven," it just lets her have emotions. And I'm going to stick with that as being a part of the full human experience.

And - although personally I'm very suspicious of the Dark Ritual - I think it's awesome that that's her goal and she sticks with it, regardless of her relationship (or lack thereof) with the PC. Because caring for or loving someone doesn't mean that you should give up everything that's important to you, just because they want you to. That's a huge, positive message that comes out of the Morrigan romance/relationship - that there is this more reasonable, healthy middle ground between "loving doormat" and "hateful shrew" that female characters often get slotted into. That's so huge, and challenges so much narrative.

[Ieldra]

If you're talking about my posts, then I wasn't clear enough.

Someone who cannot form attachments to others, who cannot see them as more than tools to use, is a sociopath. I'm going to stick with saying that's not healthy.

I don't think Morrigan's a sociopath. She's been raised to believe that she should be, and that anything less is weak. If she's not befriended or romanced, she never has a reason to question those beliefs.

If she is befriended or romanced, she can come to realize that, yes, she can care about other people, and it doesn't make her less strong or capable. It doesn't make her "emotion-driven," it just lets her have emotions. And I'm going to stick with that as being a part of the full human experience.

You see, I very much agree with that, it's just that stories all too often send a different message and some people here appear to resent Morrigan for not being a "loving doormat". I'm also extremely suspicious - no, let's be honest, hostile - to using the term "humanizing" here because when that's invoked, it usually implies if you're not soft or particularly empathic you're less human, most notably if applied to a woman. Or have you ever seen that term applied to a man's character development? I haven't.
 

And - although personally I'm very suspicious of the Dark Ritual - I think it's awesome that that's her goal and she sticks with it, regardless of her relationship (or lack thereof) with the PC. Because caring for or loving someone doesn't mean that you should give up everything that's important to you, just because they want you to. That's a huge, positive message that comes out of the Morrigan romance/relationship - that there is this more reasonable, healthy middle ground between "loving doormat" and "hateful shrew" that female characters often get slotted into. That's so huge, and challenges so much narrative.

Absolutely. I like the DR for unrelated reasons but my main attraction to Morrigan as a romanceable character was in this. I'm just afraid they'll f*ck the message up in DAI.

[Xilizhra]

Yes, but that doesn't mean that (1) there was any permanent damage and (2) if there was, that any healing of such damage involves softening her and making her conform to the conventional image of the emotion-driven woman who wants nothing more than to love and be loved. Or in short: you don't need to be soft to be mentally healthy. Damn. It.

If I had such a standard, I would apply it equally to both women and men (if you'll notice, Alistair's greatest desire is a loving family). However, the gulf between "love freak" and "hates love" is vast, and Morrigan is rather too close to one side of it to be emotionally healthy.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

If I had such a standard, I would apply it equally to both women and men (if you'll notice, Alistair's greatest desire is a loving family). However, the gulf between "love freak" and "hates love" is vast, and Morrigan is rather too close to one side of it to be emotionally healthy.

She seems to end up closer to the middle if you romance her.