159 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

She seems to end up closer to the middle if you romance her.

Noted... but of course I'm unable to.

[Chashan]

I romanced her with my Dalish lady. Feel free to sue me.

 

(I find it quite surprising how that does work, once male remarks in dialogue are taken care of)

 

 

 

 

Ieldra:

 

And I really want a "dislike" button for all those posts that say she's broken and love or friendship will "restore her humanity" and any kind of the same nonsense. There are things she would probably profit from acknowledging, yes, but she's her own person and doesn't need to change to fit conventional preconceptions of what a psychologically healthy human has to be like. Most notably, you don't have to value love over everything else to be that, and I hope her story will continue to acknowledge that.

 

Agreed. On another note, I very much enjoyed steering Leliana away from her retreat into Andrastianism and acknowledging the person she really is on my recent playthrough.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Noted... but of course I'm unable to.

Understandable. I prefer Leiliana too.

[Xilizhra]

Understandable. I prefer Leiliana too.

No, I mean I literally can't because I'm female.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

No, I mean I literally can't because I'm female.

Oh. Well, in that case, at least you can persuade her that friendship isn't a weakness.

[Cobra's_back]

You see, I very much agree with that, it's just that stories all too often send a different message and some people here appear to resent Morrigan for not being a "loving doormat". I'm also extremely suspicious - no, let's be honest, hostile - to using the term "humanizing" here because when that's invoked, it usually implies if you're not soft or particularly empathic you're less human, most notably if applied to a woman. Or have you ever seen that term applied to a man's character development? I haven't.
 
Absolutely. I like the DR for unrelated reasons but my main attraction to Morrigan as a romanceable character was in this. I'm just afraid they'll f*ck the message up in DAI.

 

 

I don't think she should be a doormat. The biggest doormat for me is Wynne and Leliana comes in second. Let's face it both seem to forget to question why? Wynne is okay with the Chantry taking her baby and not letting mages marry. Leliana was Marjolaine's  doormat. I'll do anything for Marjolaine even if it is wrong. Marjolaine did play her well. 

 

Being strong doesn't have to insult others. Men and women who insult others just for the sake of insulting them are actually insecure. It is not a strength but a weakness. In Morrigan's case she may just need to socialize more. She may feel insecure because she hasn't been around people that much. There is absolutely no logical reason for a man or woman to go after Alistair about his grief for Duncan. What a waste of hot air on her part or anyone who would do something like that. Kicking someone when they are down is a cowardly act. My warden was not kind to her for that and he doesn't have to be. This doesn't mean he can't like her. It means he disapproved of her callous actions. 

 

As for the DR, my view on this is that it was a deal. You can take it or leave it. She didn't mention it at first because she was afraid. I'm not sure why. It would be a baby with the soul of an old god. Sounds like Dragonborn to me. I'm not totally sure why I would fear this. Not enough detail for me to formulate an opinion. I need more data.

 

What I see in DAO from the lines they have is that she fears love.

 

"Morrigan rages: Love is a weakness. It is a cancer that grows inside and makes one do foolish things. Love is death. I know passion respect equals and power."

 

Here is the problem. Is it DAO that doesn't have a clue? I can't say for sure not enough data. I do know love should not make you do foolish things nor is it a weakness. It should not make you brain dead or incapable of taking a stand. Healthy relationships are not based on acquiescence. The best relationships are two adults that disagree but do it respectably. Both grow and learn and have someone to bounce ideas off of. Leliana blindly followed Marjolaine without question. This is not a healthy relationship. Wynne said something stupid about love as well. She said you would do anything for it. That is not true. Your brain doesn't turn into mash potatoes. I may be reading this wrong but the game has had several comments that claim love makes you stupid.  I accept the fact that I can be analytical. The only data they gave me in game were the silly comments I heard Wynne and Leliana state. I could try to play female so I can hear Alistair's stuff. 

 

Morrigan's behavior around others spells insecurity. She doesn't need to go after Alistair. It serves no purpose. A strong person could put him in his place and not need to insult. They could even give the guy a new perspective. She can be strong but she needs to branch out. To be perfectly honest she doesn't really seem strong to me at all during DAO. She does seem to have raw potential. I hope DAI doesn't turn her into Loghain or the Illusive man. This would be a shame.

[Cobra's_back]

Well, I think it's fairly indisputable that she was raised in a greatly abusive and damaging environment.

 

 

Very true. It is also reasonable and logical to assume that a child would be scarred by the experience. 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Or have you ever seen that term applied to a man's character development? I haven't.
 

 

I have. It's not as common though. I'd say Zevran's arc allows him to break out of some of the dehumanising training of the Crows. He's still an assassin and a killer, but somewhat like Morrigan he can come to accept love and friendship as good things while still maintaining his edge.

[Cobra's_back]

I have to say I’m forcing myself to do this Romance just because I want a different ending for witch hunt. I had Morrigan at 100 and just got a -5 because I would not take the Caladrius offer of draining the life from the poor elves. I thought I could kill Caladrius fast but I forgot about the cut scene where you have no choice but to listen to the offer. I killed him and she gave me a -5 for not doing a heinous crime. Just totally unreal

 

I have to admit most of the time I travel with Wynne, Leliana and Alistair. They never give me negatives for taking the lawful and moral path.

[Tommy6860]

Yes, she does become what appears to be a person who values you as a friend. Nothing about her changes but she values you as a friend. I think the only thing about it is that I question everything else. She now considers me a friend but I still don't know how dangerous she is. I lack any real insight into who she really is, what she will do with that baby.... She probably would return to help me if need be, but as for the rest of the world, who knows? That makes her dangerous in my opinion. It concerns me. Even as a friend, she concerns me with regards to the bigger picture.

 

I disagree a bit here. If she were that dangerous, or even that selfish, she could have bolted after the Dark Ritual without ever having to take part in the final battle on top of the tower against the Archdemon. Following her dangerous attitude or selfishness, she was already impregnated, she needed nothing else to sate her needs.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I disagree a bit here. If she were that dangerous, or even that selfish, she could have bolted after the Dark Ritual without ever having to take part in the final battle on top of the tower against the Archdemon. Following her dangerous attitude or selfishness, she was already impregnated, she needed nothing else to sate her needs.

 

Well...she did still need for the archdemon to be defeated. The ritual would be for nothing otherwise. Morrigan might think she's a better person to do the job of getting you there in one piece than certain other companions, perhaps.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Well...she did still need for the archdemon to be defeated. The ritual would be for nothing otherwise. Morrigan might think she's a better person to do the job of getting you there in one piece than certain other companions, perhaps.

Alternatively, she might need to be within a certain radius of the Archdemon when it dies.

[DarthGizka]

It would certainly have put a crimp into her plans either way if Riordan had succeeded...

[Tommy6860]

Well...she did still need for the archdemon to be defeated. The ritual would be for nothing otherwise. Morrigan might think she's a better person to do the job of getting you there in one piece than certain other companions, perhaps.

 

Perhaps, but so are our mindsets on the DA:O lore; according to DA:O lore, she still got pregnant and left the scene if the Dark Ritual never happened (noted in the epilogue cards) as the Archdemon would have been defeated with her there or not. In any case, I was speaking of her love/friendship for the Warden, not her personal proclivities.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

It would certainly have put a crimp into her plans either way if Riordan had succeeded...

 

It didn't matter who killed the archdemon, so long as the ritual had been done beforehand.

 

 

Perhaps, but so are our mindsets on the DA:O lore; according to DA:O lore, she still got pregnant and left the scene if the Dark Ritual never happened (noted in the epilogue cards) as the Archdemon would have been defeated with her there or not. In any case, I was speaking of her love/friendship for the Warden, not her personal proclivities.

 

I meant that her helping the Warden fight the archdemon post-DR was not necessarily an act of altruism. She only deigns to help you fight if you do the ritual, after all, even if the Warden is her friend/love. You could quite easily claim she sticks around to see it through out of selfishness and, depending on what the OGC is really for, dangerous intentions.

 

Helping the heroes coincidentally fulfill your own mysterious schemes is a valid method.

[Orian Tabris]

Morrigan told Leliana that Flemeth frightened her as a little girl with stories of Flemeth using men until they were spent and then eating them. She was horrified when her mother told her she would do the same when she came of age. What age is she talking about? It was an odd line. I guess they put it there to show that Morrigan did not agree with her mother's lifestyle. Does Morrigan want a normal life but fears she can't have it? 

 

I think BioWare put that in there to foreshadow the fact that Morrigan would later find out that Flemeth had intended to kill/eat/absorb/whatever her, if the player had found and given her Flemeth's Grimoire. Also, I think it was to help build the relationship between her and Leliana (for Leli's perception of her).

 

Of course, this is assuming Flemeth actually intends to do the same to her as she apparently did to her other daughters.

 

I don't think Morrigan wants a normal life, except depending on the player's actions. She was curious about the world beyond the Wilds, but the only things she could really relate to was the concepts of beauty and deception - which more-or-less makes sense, since she grew up with the only person she knew, whom would deceive for personal gain. I think it should be noted, however, that - perhaps due to Flemeth scaring her with it - Morrigan had no desire to seduce men or lust for them. Also, maybe she saw nothing to gain by doing what Flemeth did.

 

As for which Warden I picked to romance her, I had the idea of my Dwarf Noble and Human Noble Wardens, but I only romanced her with the human, and I never finished the romance (never reached the Landsmeet with him, and the dwarf never past meeting Cailan). My Wardens that past Origins romanced Leliana, Alistair, Zevran and Alistair again.
 

Side note: if she's a demon in the sack, it's probably her being related to Flemeth, not her dark and mysterious, sultry woman appeal, which appeals to many players. For those whom probably had that in their heads at first. For me, however, her appeal is just her appearance and her hilarious dialogue.

[Tommy6860]

Yes, you are right here. I guess it's all those negatives she gives me for doing more humane things that sort of gives me that feeling about her. She disagrees with all the decent stuff I do that she sort of thinks 'screw them' and that leaves me feeling that way about her. It actually is a huge portion of why I feel this way about her. But no, she did not split if she gets what she wants. BUT keep in mind that she has to be around for that spell to do what she needs. Remember, she didn't do it to get pregnant. She did it to have a fertilized egg that could hold the archdeamon soul once you did kill it. And it has to be someone nearby IIRC. I'll have to listen to the details more specifically, but I for some reason think that she has to be around the area where you kill it. So bolting might not work for the spell to achieve what she wants. Since I'm not certain on this though I do lean toward being fairly certain that this was the case, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because I'm not sure. If she has to be around for the soul to enter the fertilized egg (and just barely at that - gotta love the writing on this bit) then bolting doesn't really accomplish her task.

 

In all honesty (for me anyway) I don't place Morrigan in much of a negative light. It's pretty clear in the conversations with her from the beginning that she's practical in most situations. I admit there are a few of those times where she's fairly cold, but nevertheless practical. I took her back story and character based on how she was raised. If going by the game, she pretty much lived a lonely life under the influences of her mother, of whom  (also) was a fairly cold person herself who lived under the intentions as a maleficar.

 

As I came to know Morrigan and befriended her during our companionship, she grew on me personally; I took her as being very humanistic. I look at her as not having had much interaction within the world outside of her upbringing and saw why she treated people and situations they way she did. Therefor, I tend to place a bit of empathy upon her character. But, this is me and how I see Morrigan. Had she ever came to the point of stating that she never respected me in one fashion or another after have making my intentions clear to her, she would have been pretty much dismissed as a companion although she frowned on a few of my choices. I do however, appreciate your take on the  on her (and the game), and I really enjoy reading your posts.

[Tommy6860]

 

I meant that her helping the Warden fight the archdemon post-DR was not necessarily an act of altruism. She only deigns to help you fight if you do the ritual, after all, even if the Warden is her friend/love. You could quite easily claim she sticks around to see it through out of selfishness and, depending on what the OGC is really for, dangerous intentions.

 

Helping the heroes coincidentally fulfill your own mysterious schemes is a valid method.

 

I never thought of Morrigan acting out *to* any form of altruism to be honest. I pretty knew from  getting to know her character that she was not inclined to be sympathetic to outside situations. However, having played different endings to the game, she was clear of her affections towards me and made clear what her intentions were before the end-game state. The few times I dismissed her DR offer in my ventures through the game, the end state didn't change much from storyline. I actually wish this had been different from the choices I made in the end game state.

[Cobra's_back]

In all honesty (for me anyway) I don't place Morrigan in much of a negative light. It's pretty clear in the conversations with her from the beginning that she's practical in most situations. I admit there are a few of those times where she's fairly cold, but nevertheless practical. I took her back story and character based on how she was raised. If going by the game, she pretty much lived a lonely life under the influences of her mother, of whom  (also) was a fairly cold person herself who lived under the intentions as a maleficar.

 

As I came to know Morrigan and befriended her during our companionship, she grew on me personally; I took her as being very humanistic. I look at her as not having had much interaction within the world outside of her upbringing and saw why she treated people and situations they way she did. Therefor, I tend to place a bit of empathy upon her character. But, this is me and how I see Morrigan. Had she ever came to the point of stating that she never respected me in one fashion or another after have making my intentions clear to her, she would have been pretty much dismissed as a companion although she frowned on a few of my choices. I do however, appreciate your take on the  on her (and the game), and I really enjoy reading your posts.

 

I agree with what you are saying. I didn't have too much trouble with her until the Caladrius offer. Taking the life from those elves is not practical. It is just plain sick. I'm not sure how anyone can do that. The Warden has to find a way to defeat the Archdemon. No one person is going to take on an army. Therefore, it is practical to win over the hearts and minds of people because they will help you fight. 

 

Up until this point I just thought she didn't know any better being isolated. Saving Redcliffe and the Circle was important in terms of winning this war. Circle mages are powerful and valuable assets in the war. The town of Redcliffe will give you soldiers, healers and supplies. I wish the Warden had more lines to make this clear. She clearly doesn't understand how to win a war. 

[Chashan]

I have to say I’m forcing myself to do this Romance just because I want a different ending for witch hunt. I had Morrigan at 100 and just got a -5 because I would not take the Caladrius offer of draining the life from the poor elves. I thought I could kill Caladrius fast but I forgot about the cut scene where you have no choice but to listen to the offer. I killed him and she gave me a -5 for not doing a heinous crime. Just totally unreal

 

I have to admit most of the time I travel with Wynne, Leliana and Alistair. They never give me negatives for taking the lawful and moral path.

 

I did not run into that malus focusing the good magister down and then telling him to begone. Further, she did not speak up any more there, did she?

 

That is one thing I'll point out as a bad thing about DA:O's companion-reputation: mali thrown in without further VO of the different companions to follow that up in quite a number of situations.

 

 

As to the question of "lawfulness" and "moral path", well...I am glad DA:O leaves enough room for players to veer away from that.

[Cobra's_back]

I did not run into that malus focusing the good magister down and then telling him to begone. Further, she did not speak up any more there, did she?

 

That is one thing I'll point out as a bad thing about DA:O's companion-reputation: mali thrown in without further VO of the different companions to follow that up in quite a number of situations.

 

 

As to the question of "lawfulness" and "moral path", well...I am glad DA:O leaves enough room for players to veer away from that.

 

Yes she did. She said it sounded like a good idea but a little messy. This means to me she thought it was a good deal. That should never be a good idea.  She gives you +4 if the elves are killed.

 

 

As for the question of Moral path:

 

Moral relativism is the view that moral judgments are true or false only relative to some particular standpoint (for instance, that of a culture or a historical period) and that no standpoint is uniquely privileged over all others.  It has often been associated with other claims about morality: notably, the thesis that different cultures often exhibit radically different moral values; the denial that there are universal moral values shared by every human society; and the insistence that we should refrain from passing moral judgments on beliefs and practices characteristic of cultures other than our own.

 

If you were a Ferelden citizen then this would be morally wrong.

 

The questions is how about Morrigan? It is implied that Morrigan's father, who is unknown, was likely of Chasind origin. Do the Chasind see this as an immoral act?