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Which Warden did you pick to romance Morrigan?


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#101
Tommy6860

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Well, I do love Claudia Black, so I will defer to giving her a closer look. I do remember in early playthoughs that she wasn't always grating. I think with time though, never really knowing how to respond to some of her comments in conversation, I just steered away from her and gave her gifts. IIRC she would take offense at some things when it wasn't meant so I got tired of trying to read her. I'll have to investigate further. I'll admit, I have mostly steered away from her because I don't care for her tone. I even had the slap morrigan mod for a bit just to vent on all her little outbursts. Childish I know, but if she was a follower I seriously would have slapped her a few times in a few situations for the kind of character I was running at the time (one that finds offensive behavior toward others or feels that insulting them for trying to survive and asking for help is detestable and worthy of a good beatdown).

 

I take it then, since you stated you steered away from her because of her tone, that you didn't really engage her in most of her dialogue? If so, you're missing out on a side of Morrigan you've yet to experience. Morrigan is undoubtedly a loner, selfish and mean at times. But she's is practical about it when concerning the story's theme with all of the darkness abounding throughout. No matter how good you are, there are times when you need some darkness to feather out situations.

 


I have yet to play a male character. I don't know if I ever will. So I'll have to just view it from the friendship angle. It will be worth a shot. I do remember in my first game I was surprised at how she seemed to warm up to you and consider you a dear friend. I think over time I became more jaded on her actions as I observed more in the game and became more analytical about everything.

 

I only played a male character once in the many many runs I've had in DA:O. I mostly play females characters in RPGs when there's a possibility of that choice. I did in a few of my runs use the console command, or a mod that fakes my character as a male so all romances are available. It doesn't remove the possibility of friendship in case one romance doesn't work out and still plays well.



#102
Mike3207

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The questions is how about Morrigan? It is implied that Morrigan's father, who is unknown, was likely of Chasind origin. Do the Chasind see this as an immoral act?

When and where does she say that her father was Chasind? I only recall that she said she had another family out there somewhere.



#103
Tommy6860

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I agree with what you are saying. I didn't have too much trouble with her until the Caladrius offer. Taking the life from those elves is not practical. It is just plain sick. I'm not sure how anyone can do that. The Warden has to find a way to defeat the Archdemon. No one person is going to take on an army. Therefore, it is practical to win over the hearts and minds of people because they will help you fight. 

 

That particular situation wasn't relevant to winning over heart and minds. Nothing else you do in certain plot situations, as this one you mention, will have an outcome on who will side with or against you. I have taken that offer, and still saved the Elven Alienage from the Darkspawn. I understand the moral implications, but that is left to player to decide. When I played DA:O, I considered the whole game and its theme, not just myself. But how you play is best judged by you and I can appreciate that. If that made you sick, then you stick by your choices that you make based on your morals, or don't make.

 

Up until this point I just thought she didn't know any better being isolated. Saving Redcliffe and the Circle was important in terms of winning this war. Circle mages are powerful and valuable assets in the war. The town of Redcliffe will give you soldiers, healers and supplies. I wish the Warden had more lines to make this clear. She clearly doesn't understand how to win a war. 

 

Again, Morrigan does things based on her practical disposition, not out of pure malice. She makes note of gaining an ally in Father Kolgrim if you agree on his request that you defile the Sacred Urn of Ashes with dragon's blood. Morrigan can also be dissuaded from positions of malice, like when you meet Wynne right at the beginning of the Broken Circle quest. Morrigan makes a point of the mages caught in what seems to be their certain demise, that they deserve what they get because they allowed themselves to be defacto prisoners of the Chantry Templars. As the Warden, I pointed out that she could have been one of those mages, and she agreed with me.

 

I particularly didn't like that Alistair hit me with a serious negative point hit, just for suggesting that Templars are good a controlling people. I wasn't being mean about it, just making an observation of how they work. Also, if gaining allies were so important, there's a situation where the whole circle and tower Templars and Mages turn against me and I have to kill them all, including Wynne. In that scenario, I get no help from either side of those two groups in the final battle. Admittedly, this part of the game was removed in its final release. But a patch was created to put it back in the game and I use it. Talk about moral choices, I either killed them all, or lied my way out of it.

 

EDIT:

I want to make clear that killing Wynne, the Mages and The Templars at the end of the Broken Circle quest, was only available if I were a Bloodmage.


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#104
Ryzaki

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The Caladrius offer with a CE is exactly where my liking of Morrigan went from dislike to "Just gtfo at Lothering please". I mean the fact that my CE can't look at her incredulously at that moment boggles me. Sorry Morri just cause your parent sucked and you'd kill your mother for power doesn't mean my CE will.

 

As it is I romanced her with my good guy warrior. My power hungry mage slept with her and they both went their separate ways at the end of it a nice mutually beneficial transaction. I prefer the mage way of doing things.

 

Why I do feel she has the emotionally maturity of a brick she is a competent powerful mage.

 

I wouldn't trust her worth a damn though. Which is why the good guy warrior who romanced her picked the US.


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#105
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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When and where does she say that her father was Chasind? I only recall that she said she had another family out there somewhere.

I don't think we know anything for certain besides that Flemeth raised her. On the other hand, she's first encountered in Chasind territory and Alistair does think she looks like she could be of Chasind descent.



#106
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I take it then, since you stated you steered away from her because of her tone, that you didn't really engage her in most of her dialogue? If so, you're missing out on a side of Morrigan you've yet to experience. Morrigan is undoubtedly a loner, selfish and mean at times. But she's is practical about it when concerning the story's theme with all of the darkness abounding throughout. No matter how good you are, there are times when you need some darkness to feather out situations.

 

 

I only played a male character once in the many many runs I've had in DA:O. I mostly play females characters in RPGs when there's a possibility of that choice. I did in a few of my runs use the console command, or a mod that fakes my character as a male so all romances are available. It doesn't remove the possibility of friendship in case one romance doesn't work out and still plays well.

 

I did engage in conversations with her and saw that she did become a good friend. Some of the conversations were like walking on needles though. You think you are going okay and she gets pissy about it. That's why I tired of it. I haven't seen the romance aspect of her, but I have seen the friend ones. I think I did most of the conversations or at least what I could access. I think it was that she would kind of jump on my responses and I was thinking 'okay, I don't see how she jumped at that, but whatever...'


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#107
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That particular situation wasn't relevant to winning over heart and minds. Nothing else you do in certain plot situations, as this one you mention, will have an outcome on who will side with or against you. I have taken that offer, and still saved the Elven Alienage from the Darkspawn. I understand the moral implications, but that is left to player to decide. When I played DA:O, I considered the whole game and its theme, not just myself. But how you play is best judged by you and I can appreciate that. If that made you sick, then you stick by your choices that you make based on your morals, or don't make.

 

 

Again, Morrigan does things based on her practical disposition, not out of pure malice. She makes note of gaining an ally in Father Kolgrim if you agree on his request that you debase the Sacred Urn of Ashes with dragon's blood. Morrigan can also be dissuaded from positions of malice, like when you meet Wynne right at the beginning of the Broken Circle quest. Morrigan makes a point of the mages caught in what seems to be their certain demise, that they deserve what they get because they allowed themselves to be defacto prisoners of the Chantry Templars. As the Warden, I pointed out that she could have been one of those mages, and she agreed with me.

 

I particularly didn't like that Alistair hit me with a serious negative point hit, just for suggesting that Templars are good a controlling people. I wasn't being mean about it, just making an observation of how they work. Also, if gaining allies were so important, there's a situation where the whole circle and tower Templars and Mages turn against me and I have to kill them all, including Wynne. In that scenario, I get no help from either side of those two groups in the final battle. Admittedly, this part of the game was removed in its final release. But a patch was created to put it back in the game and I use it. Talk about moral choices, I either killed them all, or lied my way out of it.

 

Alistair is very extreme on his points. I think it's meant to convey how fragile he really is. You can lose massive points with him very easily. He has to be coddled to a degree which is kind of frustrating because he's a wiseass but when you are one to him it can work against you. I wonder if this is them showing that he is not a fully realized mature male. I compare him to Nathaniel who has much more reason to be pissed but can in a much shorter time see things more objectively. Alistair never really sees things objectively. You can harden him (which is absurd but there it is) but you kind of have to be very careful because he is emotionally fragile due to how he was treated for most of his life. I sometimes think he just never fully matured and only has a good chance of this happening with the right romance nurturing him and being loyal so he loses that ultra fragile feel. I certainly can't imagine him as king without having had a romance, having had sex, or having had some kind of good friendship with the warden. It just doesn't bode well given he's not really fully mature. People might say it's just defense mechanisms, but that works only to a degree. People with the most active defense mechanisms are emotionally fragile and tend to lean toward not being fully emotionally developed or at least in certain areas. Morrigan has it too as a result of her upbringing and lack of interaction with other people to give her any idea of things that are considered decent and things that are just douchy.


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#108
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Once with a drawf, Did that dark ritual ****, Not amused.


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#109
Tommy6860

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I did engage in conversations with her and saw that she did become a good friend. Some of the conversations were like walking on needles though. You think you are going okay and she gets pissy about it. That's why I tired of it. I haven't seen the romance aspect of her, but I have seen the friend ones. I think I did most of the conversations or at least what I could access. I think it was that she would kind of jump on my responses and I was thinking 'okay, I don't see how she jumped at that, but whatever...'

 

There are quite a few examples (and occasions) where your choices in conversations with her have positive effects where she expresses herself in a manner you'd least expect. Not only, it expounds on her upbringing and her personality. I'll give one example, when you give her the gift of the mirror (if you've had discussed her childhood incident where she stole one similar in looks), she is very grateful. In my response and her ensuing reply (I will paraphrase here), she remarks on her gratitude for the gift with reservation, where I reply that it is simply given as a gift. She then replies where she thinks the warden thinks she is accustomed to getting such things without something getting something in return. She obviously indicates that she isn't accustomed to this exchange and becomes very warm with how the gift was given without some sort of reciprocation.

 

As an aside, I particularity like how the conversations are tricky, it lends itself to the diversity of different personalities. IRL, we experience much of the same things.



#110
Tommy6860

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Alistair is very extreme on his points. I think it's meant to convey how fragile he really is. You can lose massive points with him very easily. He has to be coddled to a degree which is kind of frustrating because he's a wiseass but when you are one to him it can work against you. I wonder if this is them showing that he is not a fully realized mature male. I compare him to Nathaniel who has much more reason to be pissed but can in a much shorter time see things more objectively. Alistair never really sees things objectively. You can harden him (which is absurd but there it is) but you kind of have to be very careful because he is emotionally fragile due to how he was treated for most of his life. I sometimes think he just never fully matured and only has a good chance of this happening with the right romance nurturing him and being loyal so he loses that ultra fragile feel. I certainly can't imagine him as king without having had a romance, having had sex, or having had some kind of good friendship with the warden. It just doesn't bode well given he's not really fully mature. People might say it's just defense mechanisms, but that works only to a degree. People with the most active defense mechanisms are emotionally fragile and tend to lean toward not being fully emotionally developed or at least in certain areas. Morrigan has it too as a result of her upbringing and lack of interaction with other people to give her any idea of things that are considered decent and things that are just douchy.

 

Exactly why I am not too keen to Alistair. Aside from the fact that he's the only companion who you cannot make leave the party for good until the time of the Landsmeet. Other than him, Morrigan seems to be the most important companion regarding the plots states and the main story, yet she can be dismissed. The first time I left her out of the story early in a game run, I found out the hard way how I couldn't live at the end of the game when I was the only there that had the ability to slay the Archdemon.

 

To hit on his personality more so as you describe, when you first wake up in Flemeth's hut after the Tower of Ishal and Cailan's betrayal, Morrigan makes a comment (paraphrasing here) that she thinks it isn't too unkind to remark that Alistairs is blubbering over the losses of the King's Army, Duncan, etc. When I reply that I think it is very unkind, she retorts that Grey Wardens don't act like that from what she has noted of them.



#111
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Exactly why I am not too keen to Alistair. Aside from the fact that he's the only companion who you cannot make leave the party for good until the time of the Landsmeet. Other than him, Morrigan seems to be the most importnat companion regarding the plots states and the main story, yet she can be dismissed. The first time I left her out of the story early in a game run, I found out the hard way how I couldn't live at the end of the game when I was the only there that had the ability to slay the Archdemon.

 

To hit on his personality more so as you describe, when you first wake up in Flemeth's hut after the Tower of Ishal and Cailan's betrayal, Morrigan makes a comment (paraphrasing here) that she thinks it isn't too unkind to remark that Alistairs is blubbering over the losses of the King's Army, Duncan, etc. When I reply that I think it is very unkind, she retorts that Grey Wardens don't act like that from what she has noted of them.

 

But what does Morrigan actually know of Grey Wardens? What does she know of people in general. Not a whole lot so I can't put any merit in her knowledge of grey wardens or anyone else for that matter. She has the insight of a five year old regarding people and societal standards. I understand why but again,  this is a woman who would let the circle die, redcliffe citizens die. She's not the best one for insight into other people. Whereas while Alistair may not be fully emotionally matured, he does care about people. It's just that he has never been on the receiving end of being cared for. This also makes him more emotionally fragile and sensitive to how you treat him. When he discusses how people treated him, you can see the frustration and annoyance with all of it. It's why the king issue grates on him so much. It was the reason he was treated so crappy and yet he has this noble king blood... I'd be kind of pissed about that too because it actually did make his life worse in every way possible. And yet, he is still a caring individual. He didn't turn into an angry person who cannot sympathize. He actually can empathize quite well, it's just a matter of sometimes his own issues get in the way, like dealing with things he is hyper sensitive to like betrayal and rejection. But if you don't betray or reject him, he's easy to deal with. He's sensitive but if you keep in mind that he clearly is more sensitive, then there is a very easy path to relate to him. Morrigan feels like she's all over the place. And for her experiences she has no empathy whatsoever. 



#112
Tommy6860

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But what does Morrigan actually know of Grey Wardens? What does she know of people in general. Not a whole lot so I can't put any merit in her knowledge of grey wardens or anyone else for that matter. She has the insight of a five year old regarding people and societal standards. I understand why but again,  this is a woman who would let the circle die, redcliffe citizens die. She's not the best one for insight into other people. o empathy whatsoever. 

 

 

Morrigan makes note of her knowledge of the Grey Wardens right before she joins your party. Not only that, her mother had possession of the Grey Warden treaties that are used to call up an army on demand, they both read them and understood what the Grey Wardens are. Also, the previous blights are recorded history and Morrigan is one of knowledge. Morrigan also notes that she traveled out of the wilds into towns, etc. Surely learned other cultures and gained knowledge. She even acknowledges her dislike of how she is made to feel unwanted in her ventures out of the wilds. When you first encounter her in the Korcari wilds, she makes well known her being straightforward when I suggest she's being a dishonest person.

 

She acts the way she does when concerning Redcliffe, The Circle, etc  because she wants to get to the heart of ending the Blight more quickly by *not* playing savior of the day. Redcliffe isn't needed for the Final battle is neither the Circle.

 

Whereas while Alistair may not be fully emotionally matured, he does care about people. It's just that he has never been on the receiving end of being cared for. This also makes him more emotionally fragile and sensitive to how you treat him. When he discusses how people treated him, you can see the frustration and annoyance with all of it. It's why the king issue grates on him so much. It was the reason he was treated so crappy and yet he has this noble king blood... I'd be kind of pissed about that too because it actually did make his life worse in every way possible. And yet, he is still a caring individual.

 

Yet Morrigan was raised a loner without love or affection. Surely we don't discard empathy for those were raised similarly? When that's all she knows and learned during her upbringing, one would (at least logically) apply the same considerations. Why not treat Alistair with the same unkindness when he keeps bringing up the deaths of the King, Duncan, etc.  Alistair still had many people and support groups around him while he was raised. He even talks about his camaraderie with the Templar mates during his Chantry upbringing.

 

He didn't turn into an angry person who cannot sympathize. He actually can empathize quite well, it's just a matter of sometimes his own issues get in the way, like dealing with things he is hyper sensitive to like betrayal and rejection. But if you don't betray or reject him, he's easy to deal with. He's sensitive but if you keep in mind that he clearly is more sensitive, then there is a very easy path to relate to him. Morrigan feels like she's all over the place. And for her experiences she has no empathy whatsoever. 

 

I agree with this on Alistair, but it makes him weak as a leader and a Grey Warden. I learned this about him when having the first conversations between him, Morrigan and myself when we entered Lothering after the bandit scene. I am not a Morrigan apologist inasmuch as I am not an Alistair antagonist. Again, Morrigan makes it clear from near the very start that she's practical about things and her upbringing by (what turns out to be) an even colder person, Flemeth; this makes it completely understandable regarding her obvious lack of care for others.  Morrigan is not completely devoid of empathy. Heck I think she has expressed more of that than Sten does. Even Zevran is a very cold person who was raised and thinks similarly.



#113
Marrissa

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My human noble, whom had a fling with Leliana, to decide to woo Morrigan. Theeeen he made a deal with Anora to be her prince-consort. He did the dark ritual as well. Roleplaying I thought it'd be scandalous to have a bastard with a dragon soul.  ;)


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#114
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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My human noble, whom had a fling with Leliana, to decide to woo Morrigan. Theeeen he made a deal with Anora to be her prince-consort. He did the dark ritual as well. Roleplaying I thought it'd be scandalous to have a bastard with a dragon soul.  ;)

My King Cousland got Alistair to do it. He figured it'd be best if the OGB's father was someone who'd renounced all claim to the throne, and whose oath had made clear he was speaking for his heirs as well.


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#115
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I never thought of Morrigan acting out *to* any form of altruism to be honest. I pretty knew from  getting to know her character that she was not inclined to be sympathetic to outside situations. However, having played different endings to the game, she was clear of her affections towards me and made clear what her intentions were before the end-game state. The few times I dismissed her DR offer in my ventures through the game, the end state didn't change much from storyline. I actually wish this had been different from the choices I made in the end game state.

 

Interestingly, as seen in a deleted scene drawn by aimo and written by Gaider, the DR can be partially motivated by her not wanting her friend/love to die. Yes, she was going to offer the ritual no matter what, but at that point she can also be interested in helping the Warden instead of just helping herself. And she's frightened of losing her (only) friend/love as a consequence.


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#116
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Interestingly, as seen in a deleted scene drawn by aimo and written by Gaider, the DR can be partially motivated by her not wanting her friend/love to die. Yes, she was going to offer the ritual no matter what, but at that point she can also be interested in helping the Warden instead of just helping herself. And she's frightened of losing her (only) friend/love as a consequence.

 

I remember reading that a while back. I wish that had not been deleted, though I can see in not deleting that scene, could be cause to make the choice easy for those Morrigan haters to perform the DR with her, and lessening her being the malicious witch many perceive her to be. I guess her evil meme was to be preserved to some extent anyways. Thnx for bringing that into the convo. I've always enjoyed reading your DA knowledge; you're a regular treasure trove of DA lore. :)


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#117
Corker

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When and where does she say that her father was Chasind? I only recall that she said she had another family out there somewhere.

 
When you first see her, Alistair remarks that she "has a Chasind look to her." He could mean her features or her dress.
 
The other big fan theory is (was? haven't heard it for a while) that her father is Maric. In the novel 'The Stolen Throne,' Flemeth gets Maric alone for a while, with the narrator POV stuck with Loghain outside her hut.  She extracts a promise from him (revealed in the comics and having nothing to do with Morrigan) but he's in there for hours. Fan imagination filled in the blank as fan imagination is wont to do.
 
It would lend a certain Arthurian vibe to any potential Morrigan/Alistair Dark Ritual (her as Morgause, him as Arthur, and the Old God Baby as Mordred - who of course engineers the fall of Camelot).

EDIT: For that matter, we also know that the Dalish travel through the Korcari and know of Flemeth, and sometimes have dealings with her. And templars go hunting for Flemeth sometimes. There's at least two more potential sources of fathers for Morrigan that don't require Flemeth to leave the Wilds. (Which she could, of course, also totally do.)
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#118
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I remember reading that a while back. I wish that had not been deleted, though I can see in not deleting that scene, could be cause to make the choice easy for those Morrigan haters to perform the DR with her, and lessening her being the malicious witch many perceive her to be. I guess her evil meme was to be preserved to some extent anyways. Thnx for bringing that into the convo. I've always enjoyed reading your DA knowledge; you're a regular treasure trove of DA lore. :)

 

Aw, thanks ^_^ 


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#119
Cobra's_back

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That particular situation wasn't relevant to winning over heart and minds. Nothing else you do in certain plot situations, as this one you mention, will have an outcome on who will side with or against you. I have taken that offer, and still saved the Elven Alienage from the Darkspawn. I understand the moral implications, but that is left to player to decide. When I played DA:O, I considered the whole game and its theme, not just myself. But how you play is best judged by you and I can appreciate that. If that made you sick, then you stick by your choices that you make based on your morals, or don't make.

 

 

Again, Morrigan does things based on her practical disposition, not out of pure malice. She makes note of gaining an ally in Father Kolgrim if you agree on his request that you defile the Sacred Urn of Ashes with dragon's blood. Morrigan can also be dissuaded from positions of malice, like when you meet Wynne right at the beginning of the Broken Circle quest. Morrigan makes a point of the mages caught in what seems to be their certain demise, that they deserve what they get because they allowed themselves to be defacto prisoners of the Chantry Templars. As the Warden, I pointed out that she could have been one of those mages, and she agreed with me.

 

I particularly didn't like that Alistair hit me with a serious negative point hit, just for suggesting that Templars are good a controlling people. I wasn't being mean about it, just making an observation of how they work. Also, if gaining allies were so important, there's a situation where the whole circle and tower Templars and Mages turn against me and I have to kill them all, including Wynne. In that scenario, I get no help from either side of those two groups in the final battle. Admittedly, this part of the game was removed in its final release. But a patch was created to put it back in the game and I use it. Talk about moral choices, I either killed them all, or lied my way out of it.

 

EDIT:

I want to make clear that killing Wynne, the Mages and The Templars at the end of the Broken Circle quest, was only available if I were a Bloodmage.

 

I enjoy reading your post. I always have 90 to 100% approval with Morrigan. I do enjoy her conversation tree.

 

Morals are a function of history and society. This is a human noble that is romancing Morrigan. He doesn't hate her but the character HN would have problems justifying this as reasonable, legal  or moral. 

 

This is why I took the time to find out if she was from another culture. The information was from Wiki and it could be wrong. The point is she is not connected to the Ferelden culture and may see herself as one of the wild folk. The culture and home life would add to her beliefs. If this was acceptable to the Chasind, then it would be perfectly normal. Morrigan doesn't agree with everything Flemeth does. This is a credit to her. It is hard to gauge how far she would go in the pursuit of power? As for the dark ritual she does state that she didn't plan on having feeling for the HN but she does care for him.

 

 

To me the game is flawed when there are no repercussions for taking the life force of the elves. The slave trade was illegal and so was blood magic in Ferelden. It is pretty hard to bring evidence against Loghain if the Warden also committed a crime.  This is the part where I like Skyrim more. If you do something illegal, you go to jail. In Dragon Age, the warden lives in a world where everyone else is held accountable except the warden.



#120
Cobra's_back

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When you first see her, Alistair remarks that she "has a Chasind look to her." He could mean her features or her dress.
 
The other big fan theory is (was? haven't heard it for a while) that her father is Maric. In the novel 'The Stolen Throne,' Flemeth gets Maric alone for a while, with the narrator POV stuck with Loghain outside her hut.  She extracts a promise from him (revealed in the comics and having nothing to do with Morrigan) but he's in there for hours. Fan imagination filled in the blank as fan imagination is wont to do.
 
It would lend a certain Arthurian vibe to any potential Morrigan/Alistair Dark Ritual (her as Morgause, him as Arthur, and the Old God Baby as Mordred - who of course engineers the fall of Camelot).

EDIT: For that matter, we also know that the Dalish travel through the Korcari and know of Flemeth, and sometimes have dealings with her. And templars go hunting for Flemeth sometimes. There's at least two more potential sources of fathers for Morrigan that don't require Flemeth to leave the Wilds. (Which she could, of course, also totally do.)

 

Corker,

 

I love your detailed information. I had forgotten about the Dalish and the Templars as a possible father. 



#121
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The Caladrius offer with a CE is exactly where my liking of Morrigan went from dislike to "Just gtfo at Lothering please". I mean the fact that my CE can't look at her incredulously at that moment boggles me. Sorry Morri just cause your parent sucked and you'd kill your mother for power doesn't mean my CE will.

 

As it is I romanced her with my good guy warrior. My power hungry mage slept with her and they both went their separate ways at the end of it a nice mutually beneficial transaction. I prefer the mage way of doing things.

 

Why I do feel she has the emotionally maturity of a brick she is a competent powerful mage.

 

I wouldn't trust her worth a damn though. Which is why the good guy warrior who romanced her picked the US.

 

I love the City Elf story. It is my favorite because you come in and save the day twice. 



#122
DarthGizka

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Not to mention that you get to see more of Shianni...  :wub:


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#123
Guest_starlitegirlx_*

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Morrigan makes note of her knowledge of the Grey Wardens right before she joins your party. Not only that, her mother had possession of the Grey Warden treaties that are used to call up an army on demand, they both read them and understood what the Grey Wardens are. Also, the previous blights are recorded history and Morrigan is one of knowledge. Morrigan also notes that she traveled out of the wilds into towns, etc. Surely learned other cultures and gained knowledge. She even acknowledges her dislike of how she is made to feel unwanted in her ventures out of the wilds. When you first encounter her in the Korcari wilds, she makes well known her being straightforward when I suggest she's being a dishonest person.

 

She acts the way she does when concerning Redcliffe, The Circle, etc  because she wants to get to the heart of ending the Blight more quickly by *not* playing savior of the day. Redcliffe isn't needed for the Final battle is neither the Circle.

 

 

Yet Morrigan was raised a loner without love or affection. Surely we don't discard empathy for those were raised similarly? When that's all she knows and learned during her upbringing, one would (at least logically) apply the same considerations. Why not treat Alistair with the same unkindness when he keeps bringing up the deaths of the King, Duncan, etc.  Alistair still had many people and support groups around him while he was raised. He even talks about his camaraderie with the Templar mates during his Chantry upbringing.

 

 

I agree with this on Alistair, but it makes him weak as a leader and a Grey Warden. I learned this about him when having the first conversations between him, Morrigan and myself when we entered Lothering after the bandit scene. I am not a Morrigan apologist inasmuch as I am not an Alistair antagonist. Again, Morrigan makes it clear from near the very start that she's practical about things and her upbringing by (what turns out to be) an even colder person, Flemeth; this makes it completely understandable regarding her obvious lack of care for others.  Morrigan is not completely devoid of empathy. Heck I think she has expressed more of that than Sten does. Even Zevran is a very cold person who was raised and thinks similarly.

 

Alistair was always going to be weak as a grey warden because of his compassionate side which comes up in nearly every hard choice you have to make. He is only a grey warden because he didn't want to be a templar which actually makes sense given his compassionate side. He didn't want to be a mage killer. This way he's killing darkspawn which is better than mages.I would rather have a weak grey warden who has compassion then a powerful mage who has none.

 

I don't think Morrigan extends more empathy than Sten. She is almost equal though her comments are a bit more childish. Actually, I don't recall one instance where she did express empathy now that I think of it. Not at redcliffe for the people. Not at the circle. She's fine with killing Connor. Jowan, she has empathy for but only because she can relate to him being an apostate. She is not capable of relating to anything outside of her own experience which is either remarkably selfish, remarkably limited in one's ability to see another perspective, or shows her utter lack of compassion as a human being. Not surprising given her upbringing, but it never really changes. Best you get is that if you tell her she could have been like the mages had she not been Flemeth she will back down (which is some improvement) or that you would make her a Golem which she is horrified at when it's her butt on the line. But if it were others, she thinks it is a powerful thing one should use, just as long as you don't use her. Alistair for all his issues would never think that. I guess that's why I prefer him to her and see her as quite limited. Even with the mages, she only backs down because for a moment she can see that it could have been her. You have to shove her into that position, threaten her with it, for her to see get a bit of empathy. However, given that she was not raised to have empathy, that her mother ripped away her cherished mirror and told her to harden up, it is understandable. And we do see signs that she's coming around here and there. What is disconcerting to me is that if you do the ritual, how much better will she be with the child, one that will be a powerful old god and likely have all the empathy and compassion of a brick. She might have changed some with you, but surely not enough for another mother similar to flemeth. She still is out for herself and likely won't see the need for empathy or compassion without someone there to point it out to her. I think that's why I always lean more harshly toward her. Alistair, well, I can handle it because I don't have to worry that he will lack compassion. Yes, he is fragile, but that is overcome when you give him a reason to open up and trust. Being devoid of compassion and empathy however is not so easily overcome. Without the right person to guide her, she'll still act as she would. People call it practicality. But really, it's just lack of sympathy, compassion and empathy. In fact, what is the practical point of not dealing with redcliffe? It's short sighted because you will need all the help you can muster and if you don't deal with saving those people, then the point of going there beyond reviving arl when you get the ashes gone (presuming it affects the army). If you save the militia, then you get more men. But again, if you let the town get overrun or don't get agree to find the smith's daughter so they don't get the armor they need, what is the difference between that and letting the blight tear through it? We're stopping the blight to save the country. Do we throw away every village with a problem along the way to do this? Then we may stop the blight but at a very high cost. Still lots of dead people we might have been able to save. She and sten have no capacity to see this. This is a glaring fault on both of their parts. Save a country but forget about the people in it... not much logic in that if you want to really look at the practical side. So it takes a day or two to deal with it, you still saved redcliffe.

 

You are the only warden now. You get to shape how you will be. Do you want to be like Duncan who dismisses Cousland as he dies on the floor saying there are much bigger problems than his. That a blight is coming? The man is dying. He could have had a wink of compassion and simply asked for pup's help with his permission rather than so cold heartedly not give a crap about the fact that he was dying because there are bigger issues. If that is how all wardens should be, then I'm glad Alistair and I are starting a new crop of more humane and compassionate ones that will show you can get the job done without sacrificing your soul to do it. If I were to follow morrigan's lead I would be just like duncan and duncan has a huge lack of compasssion. True grey warden old school, but old school is dead now. I shape my own future.


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#124
Cobra's_back

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Starlitegirlx,

 

"Best you get is that if you tell her she could have been like the mages had she not been Flemeth she will back down (which is some improvement) or that you would make her a Golem which she is horrified at when it's her butt on the line. But if it were others, she thinks it is a powerful thing one should use, just as long as you don't use her. "

 

I remember that line about the Golems. When the Warren states you could make her one, she replies you wouldn't dare. The next line was if all I care about was power I would. You are correct. She has a I don't care if you do this to others just not me. This may be "the strong have a right to survive and the weak should parish" attitude she has.  

 

It makes it tough or next to impossible for a Lawful human noble to support her views seeing how Fereldens view blood magic. A Dwarf on the other hand may not even care.



#125
Cobra's_back

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Starlitegirlx,

 

"And we do see signs that she's coming around here and there. What is disconcerting to me is that if you do the ritual, how much better will she be with the child, one that will be a powerful old god and likely have all the empathy and compassion of a brick. She might have changed some with you, but surely not enough for another mother similar to Flemeth. She still is out for herself and likely won't see the need for empathy or compassion without someone there to point it out to her. I think that's why I always lean more harshly toward her. "

 

 

I played the games so many time and she is always at 90-100% as a friend. I still have never seen her give me any indication that she will change much. She does appreciate your friendship but makes it clear she is leaving if you don't do the DR. It doesn't matter that you took on Flemeth for her. If your Warden was in an active romance he still looks very unhappy about the DR. It doesn't matter which warden you use that DR doesn't look like a love scene.