370 réponses à ce sujet

[Brass_Buckles]

First off, I have no idea if Cole will even be in the game.  I made a thread requesting he should be in the Feedback forum.  I suspect he'll make some sort of appearance, regardless, so I'm discussing him here.

 

Mostly, I wonder what other people think Cole is, precisely.  Anything else pertaining to Cole from Asunder may also be posted here.

 

The evidence doesn't really point to Cole being a demon; he has too much compassion.  If he's a spirit, I thought at first Deliverance made sense.  Or Mercy.

 

Now I wonder if he's actually a spirit of Hope.  He came to answer a young mage's prayers, and stayed until the end.  He is mostly only seen by people who are in despair, and offers them a way out (even if death might not be ideal).  And we know that spirits of hope haven't ever been actually seen, but are very powerful.  It fits with his being invisible most of the time.

 

So... Anything you want to say about Cole... Discuss!

[Former_Fiend]

I haven't read Asunder yet; it's on the shelf over there, but ever since the let down that was The Calling, I haven't had the will to force myself to read any of the other dragon age novels(though I'm told The Calling is far and away the weakest of them, it's unfairly tainted my perception.)

 

That being said I've read plot synopses of Asunder, enough to have a basic idea of who/what Cole is, and I have to say, he doesn't appeal to me. I can't say why;just this gut instinct thing where something about the concept of the character turns me off; indeed, I'd actually point to that as a big reason why I haven't mustered up the will to read Asunder yet.

 

I have heard theories that Cole might be the opposite of Justice/Vengeance; a demon transitioning into a spirit instead of the other way around. I don't know. It's a very ambigious situation, and frankly, it's one that I don't care to be explored as I don't think any of the answers regarding Cole will be remotely satisfactory. 

[TheLittleBird]

To me, much like Flemeth is to me as well, he is neither of those things. He is a different entity. The Ghost of the Spire. One of the world's wonders that humanity can't fully explain as of yet. Though if he were a spirit, I'd say despair is a good bet. Or hope. It actually depends on which of those two fits Rhys more, I think. 

 

Oh, and Asunder is amazing. One of the best fantasy books I've read in years, actually. Every page is wonderful. Every. Page.

[Banxey]

Oops. I guess I posted my theory in the wrong thread. This is what it was, if anyone is interested. 

 

My theory is that it was a spirit of compassion who came to comfort the boy-Cole. When the boy died, the spirit found itself trapped outside of the fade and became a shade who clung to the boy's memories, eventually coming to believe it was the boy. The memories ended up shaping how spirit-Cole perceived it's purpose and at some point the spirit killed out of a corrupted view of compassion (even though Cole accidentally killed his sister, he freed her from torment). The power it gained from the murders made it feel more alive, and over time it slowly became more and more corrupt. Sort of like the Anders/Justice situation with Anders' beliefs corrupting Justice, but with a less physical basis of course.

 

[Lambdadelta]

I agree with the above theory- I believe that he is a spirit of Compassion as well, if only because an action such as coming to comfort and stay by the side of a dying boy sounds like compassion to me. I think the killings were also done out of compassion, if not necessarily out of a corrupt kind, exactly? I mean that I think the reason it killed was not because its perception of compassion changed and got corrupted over time, but rather, the opposite. As a spirit it doesn't understand morality or ethics or similar exclusively 'mortal' viewpoints and ideas, and so from the spirit's point of view, the killings were genuinely compassionate acts. It sympathized with the victims and felt bad for them, and killed them out of the sincere belief that it would be the most merciful thing to do because it would end their pain and grant them release from it. Because it is a spirit of compassion, and not, say, justice or valor, it did not at all take into consideration whether it would necessarily be the 'right' thing, or whether it's moral, or 'good' in the lawful/moral sense because it is not a value a spirit of compassion would take into consideration. Of course, naturally, having Cole's memories shaped what it would become and how it perceives the world as well. 

 

Personally Cole is my favorite thing about Asunder for many, many reasons, (my very mixed feelings on Asunder being the least of them- I'm very fond of a lot of the characters in it, but I can't say I think very highly of the book itself) and if he appears in Inquisition I am going to be very happy. But I won't count on it if only because I don't want to get my hopes up and then end up disappointed when he doesn't show up (which is very likely).

[Lulupab]

Spirits of hope are strongest entities of the fade and for the most part have decided to ignore mortals. Unless something that really can't be ignored they have no interest in waking world.

 

Their corruption makes them a spirit of despair. Cole could easily be a spirit of hope. He is strong and he came to Thedas because he witnessed something that couldn't be ignored.

[themageguy]

He is a powerful spirit that's for sure.

I liked The Calling and Asunder is awesomesauce. I'd never really pictured Wynne so battle capable....

[Master Warder Z]

Just a demon that was stupid enough to believe it self a person.

[Hellion Rex]

I think he was a spirit that was eventually corrupted by coming to the real world, and later adopting the memories and appearance of the original child. I think he was a Spirit of Mercy.

[ChaosMorning]

I adore Cole - he quickly became one of my favorite characters in the DA universe after reading Asunder.   Mind you I'm not going to delve into whether he is 'good' or anything about his killings in this post.  I simply find him, in concept and in general, a fascinating character.

 

If we're to speak of his actual being in terms of being a denizen of the Fade, I believe that he (Cole) was the mage who died in the Pits of the White Spire and as he was dying a Spirit of Hope came to him.   Somehow the spirit came to possess the dead body of Cole, and subsequently forgot its history in the Fade (as many Spirits and Demons are apparently disoriented when breaching through the Veil.)

 

During the possession I believe the Spirit of Hope was corrupted into a Despair Demon.

And I do really hope (and feel with at least some certainty) that Cole is the hinted at Asunder character who will appear in Inquisition, and join the Inquisitor as one of their companions (probably the party's dual wielding rogue).

[DKJaigen]

A likely theory which i also once posted. Its likely he assumed the Cole personality  + ritual killing to prevent himself from becoming a full fledged despair demon. Lambert likely pushed him over the edge when he told cole he was in fact a demon. How he confronted Lambert later one seem to indicate he wants to cause Lambert as much mental agony as possible, Also according to WoT it seems Cole didn't kill Lambert outright. And what better to cause despair then being locked inside your own body while a despair demon runs the entire templar order right into the ground?

[CuriousArtemis]

The only issue I have with the "Cole is a spirit" theory is his apparent "age." Cole appears to be a late teens, early 20s young man. If he came to Cole the Boy (assuming Cole the Boy was indeed a boy of about 12 or so), why didn't Cole retain the boy's appearance? Why did he "grow"?

[Lulupab]

The only issue I have with the "Cole is a spirit" theory is his apparent "age." Cole appears to be a late teens, early 20s young man. If he came to Cole the Boy (assuming Cole the Boy was indeed a boy of about 12 or so), why didn't Cole retain the boy's appearance? Why did he "grow"?

 

Lol I don't know but Anders was aging too. However I don't know if its the same thing as growing up. 

[TheLittleBird]

The only evidence I really find for Cole being someone possessed by a spirit or demon, is at the end of Asunder, with the Litany of Adralla.

But this is a scene where Lord Seeker Lambert is desperately trying to hold together the crumbling pieces of the Circle of Magi, failing in doing so and seemingly becoming enraged. 

 

And yes, the disspelling done by the Litany is a fairly good argument to make when defending the assumption that Cole is a demon or spirit, but who's to say that these effects don't work on other 'creatures' (for a lack of a better word) as well, similar to demons but not quite the same?
Besides that, Cole's words at the ultimate end of Asunder didn't convince me enough as well, since they could be interpreted differently.

[Hellion Rex]

The only issue I have with the "Cole is a spirit" theory is his apparent "age." Cole appears to be a late teens, early 20s young man. If he came to Cole the Boy (assuming Cole the Boy was indeed a boy of about 12 or so), why didn't Cole retain the boy's appearance? Why did he "grow"?

Well, by the same token, if he wasn't a spirit, how did he disappear into thin air when Lambert confronted him?

[wcholcombe]

One issue with the idea of him being a spirit of Compassion:

 

Yes, he kills people who seem to want to die-but that isn't the reason he does it.  He actually kills them because he uses their blood to keep him from fading away.  He flat out tells Rhys this is the reason he kills his victims.

[TheLittleBird]

One issue with the idea of him being a spirit of Compassion:

 

Yes, he kills people who seem to want to die-but that isn't the reason he does it.  He actually kills them because he uses their blood to keep him from fading away.  He flat out tells Rhys this is the reason he kills his victims.

 

He'd probably be maybe a demon of despair then. He actually talks about seeing the despair in people's eyes before he kills them.

[Lulupab]

Personally I think entities of the fade have personalities therefore there is no black or white, there is grey too. I think Cole and Justice are grey. I base this on the fact that Justice is recognized as a spirit by a demon in the fade despite everything. Cole is probably the same too. Corrupted spirit? sure. Demon? I don't think so. They are not that black, at least not yet.

 

Also spirits of compassion are very weak. He is most likely a spirit of hope, turning into despair.

[wcholcombe]

Personally I think entities of the fade have personalities therefore there is no black or white, there is grey too. I think Cole and Justice are grey. I base this on the fact that Justice is recognized as a spirit by a demon in the fade despite everything. Cole is probably the same too. Corrupted spirit? sure. Demon? I don't think so. They are not that black, at least not yet.

 

Also spirits of compassion are very weak. He is most likely a spirit of hope, turning into despair.

WoT says they are ruled by the emotion they embody and describes spirits as the lighter side and demons as embodying the darker side of emotions.

 

Some will argue that Justice or Wynne were called spirits because of the demons association with humans. I don't really buy that, but that is the argument some make-that spirits and demons are exactly the same.

[Lulupab]

WoT says they are ruled by the emotion they embody and describes spirits as the lighter side and demons as embodying the darker side of emotions.

 

Some will argue that Justice or Wynne were called spirits because of the demons association with humans. I don't really buy that, but that is the argument some make-that spirits and demons are exactly the same.

 

I also think that they are from same "species" which further proves my claim. Just like humans, some are evil, some are good and some are morally grey.

 

In this conversation Demon means "evil entity of the fade" and spirit means "good entity of the fade". Its just what Andrastian chantry calls them.

[wcholcombe]

I also think that they are from same "species" which further proves my claim. Just like humans, some are evil, some are good and some are morally grey.

 

In this conversation Demon means "evil entity of the fade" and spirit means "good entity of the fade". Its just what Andrastian chantry calls them.

No.  The Spirit is good and Demon is evil predates the Chantry by several hundred years.  The Tevinter Magister's started categorizing them as spirits and Demons long before the Chantry or Andraste even existed.  The Chantry brought some of that into their religion, but the idea of Demons and Spirits and them being evil and good is much older than Andrastian.

[CuriousArtemis]

Well, by the same token, if he wasn't a spirit, how did he disappear into thin air when Lambert confronted him?

 

I really don't know Did he disappear, briefly enter a different realm, become non-corporeal, or simply become invisible? Who knows. Cole is a strange person/creature! A man of mystery

[JakeOfDiamonds]

ChaosMorning and I are on the same page from the sounds of it. I think Cole has underwent several 'forms' as it were. I'll do them in order;

 

1). Cole, the human mage. A young boy, with an abusive father, a deceased mother, and a sister he accidentally smothered to death. Used his mother's dagger, a keepsake from her, to murder said father. And was then taken to the Orlesian Circle, thrown in a dungeon. He was afraid, and hoped for release.

 

2). Cole, the Hope Spirit Abomination. A spirit from the fade visited him in his cell. We believe it was benevolent because it was there to comfort him while he was powerless against his templar captors. This spirit was with him until the very end, much as how Wynne's Faith Spirit was there for her. Hope is apparently the strongest form of Spirit (at least 'so far encountered'), which would lead one to believe that it's next form is even more powerful than we can comprehend.

 

3). Cole, the Despair Demon Abomination. When the Templars were too rough on Cole and he passed away, they erased all evidence of him to hide their shame. The spirit didn't like this, it was corrupted, in a way similar to Justice becoming Vengeance. We've been told to expect new types of demons in DAI, and I thought I remembered hearing something about a Despair Demon. Cole, the boy, is an abomination. The spirit of hope is no longer. And what remains is an extremely powerful despair demon. One who, for most of the book, was unsure what he was. Cole the Human versus Cole the Abomination, both struggling for some resemblance of identity and control.

 

The Litany of Andrella works on him (works on demons), he's capable of extremely potent blood magic (a skill learned from demons), and in the epilogue of Asunder, he comes back and basically tells us "Cole actually existed, and was powerless. Now I'm here, I'm self-aware, and I'm not nearly as powerless." I read the book and thought "This would be an incredible companion for a future game." Like, we've had Mage Warriors, and Warrior Mages. But Cole would be one heck of a Mage Rogue. "A Spirit Assassin." He carries a dagger, does all of his killing with the dagger, and is unbelievably skilled in Blood Magic so much, that he wasn't even willingly using it. Imagine the squad dynamic he'd bring. A Self-Sustaining Blood Mage Rogue. It's marvelous, and terrifying, all in one.

[TheLittleBird]

ChaosMorning and I are on the same page from the sounds of it. I think Cole has underwent several 'forms' as it were. I'll do them in order;

 

1). Cole, the human mage. A young boy, with an abusive father, a deceased mother, and a sister he accidentally smothered to death. Used his mother's dagger, a keepsake from her, to murder said father. And was then taken to the Orlesian Circle, thrown in a dungeon. He was afraid, and hoped for release.

 

2). Cole, the Hope Spirit Abomination. A spirit from the fade visited him in his cell. We believe it was benevolent because it was there to comfort him while he was powerless against his templar captors. This spirit was with him until the very end, much as how Wynne's Faith Spirit was there for her. Hope is apparently the strongest form of Spirit (at least 'so far encountered'), which would lead one to believe that it's next form is even more powerful than we can comprehend.

 

3). Cole, the Despair Demon Abomination. When the Templars were too rough on Cole and he passed away, they erased all evidence of him to hide their shame. The spirit didn't like this, it was corrupted, in a way similar to Justice becoming Vengeance. We've been told to expect new types of demons in DAI, and I thought I remembered hearing something about a Despair Demon. Cole, the boy, is an abomination. The spirit of hope is no longer. And what remains is an extremely powerful despair demon. One who, for most of the book, was unsure what he was. Cole the Human versus Cole the Abomination, both struggling for some resemblance of identity and control.

 

The Litany of Andrella works on him (works on demons), he's capable of extremely potent blood magic (a skill learned from demons), and in the epilogue of Asunder, he comes back and basically tells us "Cole actually existed, and was powerless. Now I'm here, I'm self-aware, and I'm not nearly as powerless." I read the book and thought "This would be an incredible companion for a future game." Like, we've had Mage Warriors, and Warrior Mages. But Cole would be one heck of a Mage Rogue. "A Spirit Assassin." He carries a dagger, does all of his killing with the dagger, and is unbelievably skilled in Blood Magic so much, that he wasn't even willingly using it. Imagine the squad dynamic he'd bring. A Self-Sustaining Blood Mage Rogue. It's marvelous, and terrifying, all in one.

 

That is actually a great theory. Oh, and having that Cole as a companion would not only be amazing, it would also uphold the tradition of having possessed companions.