370 réponses à ce sujet

[CENIC]

As Brass_Buckles mentioned, demons long to experience mortal life outside the Fade. I think the theory that child Cole allowed a spirit to possess him ala Justice is likely (or perhaps the spirit inhabited the body once Cole's mind had gone but before true death, and was able to keep it running?)

[Grieving Natashina]

One guy being behind it doesn't mean there's nothing else involved, in fact there seems to be an awful lot of players.  As for the rest, we'll just have to wait and see to know for sure.

 

To wander into crazy theory land, I've wondered if Cole could possibly be the OGB.  The mental age would be about the same, and who knows what happened to him when Morrigan took him to the place "beyond the Fade".  It could also explain the demon-like qualities and how he's able to manifest at all without possessing something.  I also wondered if the memories of the Archdemon and the Battle of Denerim in the Fade was actually Cole's memory and not Wynne's.  There's also the darkspawn that was standing very close to Cole as if listening to something...  The darkspawn listen to the song Old Gods give off.  Of course, this theory runs into the same issues that the OGB does in general.  

Okay, that idea is really nuts.  For starters, I can't imagine Morrigan allowing anyone to take her son without a serious fight.  I could see her being killed before that happened.  For another, the timeline seems a little off.  Plus, not all players did the Dark Ritual or romanced Morrigan as a man, so I still think the OGB isn't going to be significant for a long time, if ever.

 

Finally, it seems like a way to cheapen Cole's character.  He doesn't need to be some magical baby, he's interesting and complex enough as it is.

[Brass_Buckles]

One guy being behind it doesn't mean there's nothing else involved, in fact there seems to be an awful lot of players.  As for the rest, we'll just have to wait and see to know for sure.

 

To wander into crazy theory land, I've wondered if Cole could possibly be the OGB.  The mental age would be about the same, and who knows what happened to him when Morrigan took him to the place "beyond the Fade".  It could also explain the demon-like qualities and how he's able to manifest at all without possessing something.  I also wondered if the memories of the Archdemon and the Battle of Denerim in the Fade was actually Cole's memory and not Wynne's.  There's also the darkspawn that was standing very close to Cole as if listening to something...  The darkspawn listen to the song Old Gods give off.  Of course, this theory runs into the same issues that the OGB does in general.  

 

Normal shades can manifest without possessing anything, but your theory is still very interesting.  I don't know much about the OGB because I haven't played that DLC.  I had moved on to another game when it came out, so even though I have it, I never got around to it.  I intend to do so this playthrough, though.  The only drawback of this theory is that Cole has the memories of Cole the Boy, and those had to come from somewhere, so unless the Old God attached itself to a new host, I think that theory (while otherwise really interesting) is kinda shot down...

 

Edited to add:  Honestly, I like Cole being a shade, somewhere between a spirit and a demon, better than any notion of him being the Old God Baby.  He probably has no physical form, which is why he's able to disappear so easily--he never possessed Cole's body because the templars destroyed all evidence--presumably this would have included the boy's body.  How the spirit Cole could have aged beyond that is not something we currently have information about.  Maybe he just aged up because he believed he was supposed to.

[dragondreamer]

Okay, that idea is really nuts.  For starters, I can't imagine Morrigan allowing anyone to take her son without a serious fight.  I could see her being killed before that happened.  For another, the timeline seems a little off.  Plus, not all players did the Dark Ritual or romanced Morrigan as a man, so I still think the OGB isn't going to be significant for a long time, if ever.

 

Finally, it seems like a way to cheapen Cole's character.  He doesn't need to be some magical baby, he's interesting and complex enough as it is.

 

Thank you. 

 

Like I said, it runs into the same OGB issues.  And you're assuming a lot about what Morrigan would and wouldn't do...  We don't even know what she's up to or what she's done, especially where the OGB is concerned.  I also mentioned nothing about Morrigan giving away the baby or allowing it to go without a fight.

 

I'm not saying Cole *has* to be the OGB, I'm just shuffling the possibility deck.  I also don't think it would cheapen him at all.  He would be interesting with or without this scenario.

[efd731]

Okay, that idea is really nuts. For starters, I can't imagine Morrigan allowing anyone to take her son without a serious fight. I could see her being killed before that happened. For another, the timeline seems a little off. Plus, not all players did the Dark Ritual or romanced Morrigan as a man, so I still think the OGB isn't going to be significant for a long time, if ever.

Finally, it seems like a way to cheapen Cole's character. He doesn't need to be some magical baby, he's interesting and complex enough as it is.

It seems like out viewpoints differ a fair bit, but I'm 100% I'm agreance with this.

[dragondreamer]

Normal shades can manifest without possessing anything, but your theory is still very interesting.  I don't know much about the OGB because I haven't played that DLC.  I had moved on to another game when it came out, so even though I have it, I never got around to it.  I intend to do so this playthrough, though.  The only drawback of this theory is that Cole has the memories of Cole the Boy, and those had to come from somewhere, so unless the Old God attached itself to a new host, I think that theory (while otherwise really interesting) is kinda shot down...

 

Edited to add:  Honestly, I like Cole being a shade, somewhere between a spirit and a demon, better than any notion of him being the Old God Baby.  He probably has no physical form, which is why he's able to disappear so easily--he never possessed Cole's body because the templars destroyed all evidence--presumably this would have included the boy's body.  How the spirit Cole could have aged beyond that is not something we currently have information about.  Maybe he just aged up because he believed he was supposed to.

 

Shades aren't physical beings though.  They only have something close to physicality if they make a dust form (Ash Wraiths).  The memories of Cole the boy would come from the original Cole.  Spirits and demons can read minds and memories without possessing someone, this is how the images in the Fade are created.

 

Cole's "disappearing" is actually a blood magic trick.  He isn't actually invisible, he just tricks the minds of those around him into not seeing him.

[efd731]

Except he doesn't directly need blood and pain to do it, which is the basis of blood magic. So either he can store blood power like mages store mana, or it's something else

[dragondreamer]

Except he doesn't directly need blood and pain to do it, which is the basis of blood magic. So either he can store blood power like mages store mana, or it's something else

 

Lambert himself proves it's blood magic.  When he uses the Litany of Adralla, Cole appears.  The Litany dispels blood magic.

[efd731]

It dispels possession/mind control via blood magic(it can't prevent direct blood magic). But while what cole does is similar (by passively preventing others from acknowledging him) it involves no blood, so calling it blood magic is iffy. Maybe the litany just dispels fade based magic, and the only example we've had so far is blood magic

[Brass_Buckles]

Thank you. 

 

Like I said, it runs into the same OGB issues.  And you're assuming a lot about what Morrigan would and wouldn't do...  We don't even know what she's up to or what she's done, especially where the OGB is concerned.  I also mentioned nothing about Morrigan giving away the baby or allowing it to go without a fight.

 

I'm not saying Cole *has* to be the OGB, I'm just shuffling the possibility deck.  I also don't think it would cheapen him at all.  He would be interesting with or without this scenario.

 

Again, I think it's best he stay a spirit.  OGB has its own story to be told.  Cole has his own story to be told as well.  Besides which I suspect Cole's about five to ten years too old to be the OGB--he's been at the White Spire for quite some time, whereas DAO happened, probably, about fifteen years back.

 

Cole was also the child of a wilder woman, whom his father thought passed magic on to their children--it is entirely possible she did.  I think that his father would have known if Cole-the-Boy had been a foundling instead of his actual biological child...

 

 OGB might be interesting, and certainly could tie in with Cole.  For all we know, Cole is something similar.  But I do not believe that the OGB is Cole, not for a moment.

 

What is interesting is that Spirit-Cole came in response to a prayer.  Again, not the OGB because Cole was at that point a spirit.  OGB had/has a physical body (assuming he even exists in a given playthrough).  But, could Cole be something heretofore unknown, which is why he attracts darkspawn even when they apparently can't see him?  Sure.  Does that mean he is a god/Old God?  Not necessarily.  A sympathetic spirit could answer prayers from a mage just the same as a god could.

[Brass_Buckles]

Shades aren't physical beings though.  They only have something close to physicality if they make a dust form (Ash Wraiths).  The memories of Cole the boy would come from the original Cole.  Spirits and demons can read minds and memories without possessing someone, this is how the images in the Fade are created.

 

Cole's "disappearing" is actually a blood magic trick.  He isn't actually invisible, he just tricks the minds of those around him into not seeing him.

 

But Cole is not likely an abomination, because he's afraid he'll sink through walls, for starters.  And because the body of the boy was most likely burnt.  You could argue it was thrown into the Pit somewhere, in the sewers, but I doubt that--too much chance someone might find it.  Dead bodies decay, they don't come back to life--unless it's like Wynne's spirit of Faith (or life, or whatever sort of spirit Wynne actually has) and they certainly do not age (Wynne doesn't seem to have aged after her revival either so that may be true even for revived corpses).  Justice couldn't bring his host back to life as anything more than a corpse, until he formed a contract with Anders to continue his existence.

 

How does Cole manifest?  I'm not sure.  I suspect the deaths actually might have been some sort of blood magic, a type we haven't seen before.  Remember, he feels like he's about to start falling through the cracks, because he isn't real.  And the Litany pretty much proved that he's "not real" in the sense that he's a spirit or demon.  He may be using the ashes of Cole's body, for all we know.  He becomes more real in the Fade than in the real world--there's your big tipoff right there.

 

I agree he's got a physical form, but I don't think it's Cole the Boy's body.  Or if it is, the templars really need to study up on their corpse disposal methods, considering they are in a Circle Tower where demonic possession is a perpetual threat.

[Grieving Natashina]

But Cole is not likely an abomination, because he's afraid he'll sink through walls, for starters.  And because the body of the boy was most likely burnt.  You could argue it was thrown into the Pit somewhere, in the sewers, but I doubt that--too much chance someone might find it.  Dead bodies decay, they don't come back to life--unless it's like Wynne's spirit of Faith (or life, or whatever sort of spirit Wynne actually has) and they certainly do not age (Wynne doesn't seem to have aged after her revival either so that may be true even for revived corpses).  Justice couldn't bring his host back to life as anything more than a corpse, until he formed a contract with Anders to continue his existence.

 

How does Cole manifest?  I'm not sure.  I suspect the deaths actually might have been some sort of blood magic, a type we haven't seen before.  Remember, he feels like he's about to start falling through the cracks, because he isn't real.  And the Litany pretty much proved that he's "not real" in the sense that he's a spirit or demon.  He may be using the ashes of Cole's body, for all we know.  He becomes more real in the Fade than in the real world--there's your big tipoff right there.

 

I agree he's got a physical form, but I don't think it's Cole the Boy's body.  Or if it is, the templars really need to study up on their corpse disposal methods, considering they are in a Circle Tower where demonic possession is a perpetual threat.

 

It reminded me of Justice, both in Awakening and in DA2.

[Brass_Buckles]

It reminded me of Justice, both in Awakening and in DA2.

 

Yes, but Justice possessed a corpse and then Anders... so far as I can tell, Spirit-Cole had nothing to possess.  The evidence was destroyed, likely to keep the templars out of trouble.  Doubt they'd leave a mage corpse lying around where the Veil is thin and demons could get through to it.  It would have been burnt.

 

Since people walk around Cole, he clearly has some sort of presence.  But he feels that he's becoming less real, and he very well could be right.  I don't believe his body is fleshly, but I don't know how he manifests it.  I guess if he's in game we'll maybe be able to find out more about him.  Maybe he IS an abomination.  Or maybe he's some new kind of shade.  Or maybe he's something else entirely.

[Grieving Natashina]

Yes, but Justice possessed a corpse and then Anders... so far as I can tell, Spirit-Cole had nothing to possess.  The evidence was destroyed, likely to keep the templars out of trouble.  Doubt they'd leave a mage corpse lying around where the Veil is thin and demons could get through to it.  It would have been burnt.

 

Since people walk around Cole, he clearly has some sort of presence.  But he feels that he's becoming less real, and he very well could be right.  I don't believe his body is fleshly, but I don't know how he manifests it.  I guess if he's in game we'll maybe be able to find out more about him.  Maybe he IS an abomination.  Or maybe he's some new kind of shade.  Or maybe he's something else entirely.

I wasn't saying it was an entirely direct comparison.  I just thought there was some parallels between the two.

[dragondreamer]

It dispels possession/mind control via blood magic(it can't prevent direct blood magic). But while what cole does is similar (by passively preventing others from acknowledging him) it involves no blood, so calling it blood magic is iffy. Maybe the litany just dispels fade based magic, and the only example we've had so far is blood magic

 

Possibly.  But the Litany is specifically designed for dispelling blood magic, and that appears to be what Cole is doing.  If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...  I also don't recall the mage who tried to mind control Hawke in DA2 cutting herself when she did it.  The possessed Connor didn't cut himself when he controlled Teagan either.  Maybe demon/spirits don't need to do that.  Or maybe blood magic isn't always that blatant.  It would probably be easy to tell when a blood mage is at work if they were always that obvious.  We know Cole was killing people, maybe the spell works over a certain period of time as he wishes until it needs to be recharged.

 

 

 

What is interesting is that Spirit-Cole came in response to a prayer.  Again, not the OGB because Cole was at that point a spirit.  OGB had/has a physical body (assuming he even exists in a given playthrough).  But, could Cole be something heretofore unknown, which is why he attracts darkspawn even when they apparently can't see him?  Sure.  Does that mean he is a god/Old God?  Not necessarily.  A sympathetic spirit could answer prayers from a mage just the same as a god could.

 

This is very true, and probably likely.  The Hope Spirit beginnings feel more accurate when looking at how he came to Cole in the first place.  But I always like to play with wild concepts for fun.  

 

 

But Cole is not likely an abomination, because he's afraid he'll sink through walls, for starters.  And because the body of the boy was most likely burnt.  You could argue it was thrown into the Pit somewhere, in the sewers, but I doubt that--too much chance someone might find it.  Dead bodies decay, they don't come back to life--unless it's like Wynne's spirit of Faith (or life, or whatever sort of spirit Wynne actually has) and they certainly do not age (Wynne doesn't seem to have aged after her revival either so that may be true even for revived corpses).  Justice couldn't bring his host back to life as anything more than a corpse, until he formed a contract with Anders to continue his existence.

 

How does Cole manifest?  I'm not sure.  I suspect the deaths actually might have been some sort of blood magic, a type we haven't seen before.  Remember, he feels like he's about to start falling through the cracks, because he isn't real.  And the Litany pretty much proved that he's "not real" in the sense that he's a spirit or demon.  He may be using the ashes of Cole's body, for all we know.  He becomes more real in the Fade than in the real world--there's your big tipoff right there.

 

I agree he's got a physical form, but I don't think it's Cole the Boy's body.  Or if it is, the templars really need to study up on their corpse disposal methods, considering they are in a Circle Tower where demonic possession is a perpetual threat.

 

I don't think he's an abomination, because he said Cole's death was covered up by the Templars.  They couldn't cover it up if there was no body.  But I don't think he's non-physical either, because he's physical enough to interact with the world and people.  I do think he might fade away if he doesn't kill people to do whatever blood magic is keeping his form.  ...So I think we agree here?

[Brass_Buckles]

I wasn't saying it was an entirely direct comparison.  I just thought there was some parallels between the two.

 

You'd be right in that.  And Wynne's spirit was also apparently more visible in the Fade, in Asunder at least.

 

I am kind of curious if they really totally merge, though--Wynne thinks they do, but due to spoilery Asunder stuff not directly related to Cole, and due to Anders insisting on referring to Justice/Vengeance separately even AFTER claiming that they were one and the same now, I am not sure how true that is--the spirit and the soul of the person remain separate.  Perhaps an abomination is what happens when the spirit gains control, whereas whatever Wynne and Anders are happens when the spirit shares control of the host equally with the host's original mind--they still each have their own mind, but begin to think more alike.  And, the spirit can't continue to exist within the mortal realm without some kind of host.  Eventually the host believes that the spirit is a part of them whether that is true or not.

[Lambdadelta]

 Or maybe he's something else entirely.

 

If we ever get the answer, I think that's probably going to be it, ahaha.

 

The way I see what happened is that the sprit sort of... absorbed Cole's personality, memories and identity into itself? The question is how exactly. There are just so many complications and questions in figuring out what Cole exactly is in general that I don't really want to think about it too much because I'll probably just get a headache. And this is why I want him to appear in future Dragon Age media whether it's in the game or not- this question gives him very interesting narrative potential.

[Leoroc]

Spirits/Demons can take physical form. Kitty does in Honnleath, and after all you have to swing your sword at something when all those demons appear in the game. They aren't all abominations.

[dragondreamer]

Spirits/Demons can take physical form. Kitty does in Honnleath, and after all you have to swing your sword at something when all those demons appear in the game. They aren't all abominations.

 

Kitty possesses the little girl and transforms, which kills the girl.  Can happen to Connor, and happens left and right in DA2 as well.  Even demons who pass through the veil aren't actually physical beings, which is why they try to possess people, animals, or things.  Doesn't mean they can't hurt you or that they can't be fought (especially when gameplay overrides lore).  I may be wrong, but that's what I'm picking up from the lore for the time being.  A game where demons popping through the veil all over the place is the main event will hopefully shed more light on this.

 

Hmm.  Maybe Cole *did* possess Lambert and transform him...  Which would mean Lambert is very dead.  But I'm still inclined to think Cole manifested his own body.

[CENIC]

If we ever get the answer, I think that's probably going to be it, ahaha.

The way I see what happened is that the sprit sort of... absorbed Cole's personality, memories and identity into itself? The question is how exactly. There are just so many complications and questions in figuring out what Cole exactly is in general that I don't really want to think about it too much because I'll probably just get a headache. And this is why I want him to appear in future Dragon Age media whether it's in the game or not- this question gives him very interesting narrative potential.

Could he maybe be some sort of reversed abomination, then? Could a spirit of Hope or Compassion taken Cole's consciousness into itself as a means to preserve his life?

[GVulture]

Could he maybe be some sort of reversed abomination, then? Could a spirit of Hope or Compassion taken Cole's consciousness into itself as a means to preserve his life?

More like a Despair demon, honestly.

[Brass_Buckles]

Could he maybe be some sort of reversed abomination, then? Could a spirit of Hope or Compassion taken Cole's consciousness into itself as a means to preserve his life?

 

I already suggested this possibility.

 

Also, GVulture:  He was pretty clearly not a demon at the time that the boy-Cole died.  Otherwise he wouldn't have been sitting there holding the child's hand until the end.  It's only at about the time Rhys starts communicating with him that he begins to kill and seem to have taken on some corruption.

[Grieving Natashina]

More like a Despair demon, honestly.

I think that Compassion tainted becomes Despair, much like Faith when tainted becomes Pride.  I figured he started out as a spirit of Compassion, then the death of the original Cole plus being in such an awful place corrupted him over time.  

[Master Warder Z_]

I think that Compassion tainted becomes Despair, much like Faith when tainted becomes Pride.  I figured he started out as a spirit of Compassion, then the death of the original Cole plus being in such an awful place corrupted him over time.  

 

I honestly think it was just a stupid spirit who deluded it self into believing it self "alive".

 

A demon that was trapped in the material realm far too long, and it fragmented, simple.

[Grieving Natashina]

I honestly think it was just a stupid spirit who deluded it self into believing it self "alive".

 

A demon that was trapped in the material realm far too long, and it fragmented, simple.

Any example of that happening before?  Or is that just your take on it?