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[ChaosMorning]

I have been here since the switchover, Bioware has captured by interest and i enjoy their forums well enough to remain, i suppose.

 

Well, Well some one with knowledge? Understanding of the subject? School or self taught i wonder, anyway that doesn't matter. I could spend a fair amount of time on this subject myself but i won't given that while this would technically be on topic it isn't the place for a debate based around theater themes.

 

See that's the thing, i don't apply deep philosophical effect to his action, i could mind you given that if anything he wouldn't fit the figure of Greek Tragedy but rather Shakespearean Tragedy given that his "delusion" stems from himself, and not conscious desire such as the case was with many Greek figures. You see common elements shared by many playwrits but ultimately i'd argue that only in the barest sense would he be applied to the Greek version given he isn't apply conscious effort. You are making the argument that he fits Platonic themes of Justice and self actualization?

 

Now I'd argue since his need to kill is base, as instinct it would indeed qualify as a Primal and not a conscious decision, But that's the very issue i take with those who defend him, its in essence the same as defending a Shark or Virus, conscious ill intent or no, its an engine of destruction. Leopards don't change their spots, whatever old trite and tired allegory you want to use.

 

Well it's lovely to debate again, I rather enjoyed the last discussion we had about Evangeline (even if we 'just' came to a Modus Vivendi on it).

 

I study philosophy at university, but my studies are primarily centred around literature and creative writing.  Merging Greek influences (and other periods as well, of course, I rather enjoy Norse religious symbolism, on occasion) into my writing is a favorite tool of mine. But that's not particularly important. Thank you for the almost compliment though.

 

That's debatable, I think. One cannot really 'mot apply deep philosophical effect' if we're thinking of them in this particular context, we are trying to look closely. but that's my opinion.  One can, however, fit both Greek and Shakespearean elements, given that the latter was heavily influenced by the former, so it's a bit more than poets and philosophers sharing 'common elements' save for the elements key to the human condition. Not applying conscious efforts would fit in with Greek theories though, from either Plato or Aristotle, Cole would be subhuman for having base and vegetative behaviors, as viewed in aspects of their concepts of the soul. "Delusion" in a Shakespearean sense could be compared to denying Truth and What Is; willingly returning to the cave, if you want a metaphor.

 

No, I am not implying that he fits Platonic themes of Justice, I meant that you could examine his actions in comparison to Platonic theories. I think his friendship with Rhys would be interesting in an Aristotelian context though, given the... different nature of it.

 

His need to kill seems to stem out of the fact that it makes him feel 'more real' rather than blood lust itself (though you could say that he needs to kill to 'feel alive' but I think that's a bit different than what his intentions really are). Cole does change. A lot. He's been a human, a spirit, potentially an abomination - it's not super certain just what he is other than some sort of Fade denizen. 

 

But yes, if we're to talk about it in a 'changing your spots' context, he kind of does, given that his reasons for killing change - particularly in that he chooses not to kill Pharamond, even when he would rather die than be Tranquil and it could satisfy Cole's need for 'being real.'  Whether or not he could have redemption, well, that's another matter entirely.

[Master Warder Z_]

Well it's lovely to debate again, I rather enjoyed the last discussion we had about Evangeline (even if we 'just' came to a Modus Vivendi on it).

 

I study philosophy at university, but my studies are primarily centred around literature and creative writing.  Merging Greek influences (and other periods as well, of course, I rather enjoy Norse religious symbolism, on occasion) into my writing is a favorite tool of mine. But that's not particularly important. Thank you for the almost compliment though.

 

That's debatable, I think. One cannot really 'mot apply deep philosophical effect' if we're thinking of them in this particular context, we are trying to look closely. but that's my opinion.  One can, however, fit both Greek and Shakespearean elements, given that the latter was heavily influenced by the former, so it's a bit more than poets and philosophers sharing 'common elements' save for the elements key to the human condition. Not applying conscious efforts would fit in with Greek theories though, from either Plato or Aristotle, Cole would be subhuman for having base and vegetative behaviors, as viewed in aspects of their concepts of the soul. "Delusion" in a Shakespearean sense could be compared to denying Truth and What Is; willingly returning to the cave, if you want a metaphor.

 

No, I am not implying that he fits Platonic themes of Justice, I meant that you could examine his actions in comparison to Platonic theories. I think his friendship with Rhys would be interesting in an Aristotelian context though, given the... different nature of it.

 

His need to kill seems to stem out of the fact that it makes him feel 'more real' rather than blood lust itself (though you could say that he needs to kill to 'feel alive' but I think that's a bit different than what his intentions really are). Cole does change. A lot. He's been a human, a spirit, potentially an abomination - it's not super certain just what he is other than some sort of Fade denizen. 

 

But yes, if we're to talk about it in a 'changing your spots' context, he kind of does, given that his reasons for killing change - particularly in that he chooses not to kill Pharamond, even when he would rather die than be Tranquil and it could satisfy Cole's need for 'being real.'  Whether or not he could have redemption, well, that's another matter entirely.

 

Well...What can you do? I take oaths of service seriously, and i tend to dislike those who break those oaths, commitments and what have you for personal reasoning. Add in her leanings, her actions and her refusal to see reasoning and you tend to just have to accept you will not change some people's minds to reflect you're own opinion.

 

True enough but given near every playwright with a decent education has taken base elements from the Greeks he wasn't really unique in that regard.

 

See that's where i point out we DO have a fairly good idea of just WHAT he is and was, The Litany of Adrala a tome designed to combat one and one thing only; Blood magic was effective on the spirit. And given we know of only ONE spectrum of spirits with access to those abilities, well draw you're own conclusions all you wish but the Lore supports that fade denizens with access to those abilities be demons.

 

Being able to effect the material realm by the act of destruction, to make the world aware of him, his action to me it screams primal destruction theme, aka a subconscious, not directional reaction to reality. To me that is just further inferring of his own denying of his nature and his rejection of that reality and hence his need to "justify" his existence.

 

Given we know not his reasoning beyond Rhy's getting infuriated with him for being a murdering little demon, We cannot truly claim it was an inverse change of character. It's a speculative change that some attribute to him.

[ChaosMorning]

Well...What can you do? I take oaths of service seriously, and i tend to dislike those who break those oaths, commitments and what have you for personal reasoning. Add in her leanings, her actions and her refusal to see reasoning and you tend to just have to accept you will not change some people's minds to reflect you're own opinion.

 

True enough but given near every playwright with a decent education has taken base elements from the Greeks he wasn't really unique in that regard.

 

See that's where i point out we DO have a fairly good idea of just WHAT he is and was, The Litany of Adrala a tome designed to combat one and one thing only; Blood magic was effective on the spirit. And given we know of only ONE spectrum of spirits with access to those abilities, well draw you're own conclusions all you wish but the Lore supports that fade denizens with access to those abilities be demons.

 

Being able to effect the material realm by the act of destruction, to make the world aware of him, his action to me it screams primal destruction theme, aka a subconscious, not directional reaction to reality. To me that is just further inferring of his own denying of his nature and his rejection of that reality and hence his need to "justify" his existence.

 

Given we know not his reasoning beyond Rhy's getting infuriated with him for being a murdering little demon, We cannot truly claim it was an inverse change of character. It's a speculative change that some attribute to him.

 

Now, now, I remember your argument on Evangeline rather clearly, I still don not concede to your point, but I respect the opinion, low as I regard it's stance.

 

I didn't imply that Shakespeare was special in that regard, however unique or not, it's true. Greek philosophy is a fundamental for all that follow, and as such it's a valid point; they're influence is everywhere. That it's everywhere doesn't diminish what it is.

 

Cole's nature isn't especially clear, I stand by my theory of him being a Hope spirit corrupted into one of Despair, using Blood Magic.  One might think Cole to be a to be an Arcane Horror, as he is a Fade denizen of some sort that may be possessing the body of a mage (whether or not he is in the original Cole's body or has simply taken its form isn't something that's really been stated, I believe).  The Litany of Adralla is, according to its codex entry, for one capable of more than just stopping some acts of Blood Magic, it has many capabilities, stopping the influence of Blood Magic is just one. More than that though, it's stated to interrupt spell casting, for another - it caused Cole pain, I believe, which is a bit different (especially considering Cole was not hiding himself during the battle). I'm not entirely certain that we can debate this realistically, without further knowledge. We could, but it wouldn't lead anywhere but a silly back and fourth (...whether this is or not is up to who's reading it, I guess. I'm enjoying it, however, so whatever).

 

Regardless of one's opinion on Rhys, however, he is very much right in saying we do not really understand everything about the Fade and the beings that dwell there. It's far too simple to attribute them to their Ideals alone.   I believe it will have to wait until further confirmation, or until Cole's next appearance, to really say anything about him in that context.

 

It is a reaction to Cole's reality though, he does exist and as such reacts to his existence, whatever form that may take.  He does not know (or remember, more likely, given what was stated in the section on the Fade in the World of Thedas) his origins, and as such can't really deny them. When Lambert breaks the news, he sort of acknowledges it and fades away (mind you, the effects of the Litany may be the reason he faded, given what it did to him) for some time (until he kills/whatever happened between he and the Lord Seeker at Asunder's end). 

 

His drive to create some sort of validity has a different reasoning though, I'm not saying he's any better for it, but yes, that's a moot point at the moment. 

[Master Warder Z_]

I grant you have a point, we both only have access to the lore presented via Asunder and our clearly separate views on it, and given from what was revealed of Masked Empire, The mage issue wasn't overly covered so its doubtful Cole will appear in any medium until DAI.

 

We can continue this speculative back and forth if you like but to be honest, I'd prefer debating a subject I'd actually enjoy debating. Such as Mage/Templar Dynamics, World War two stratagems, Socioeconomic Policies, Ideologies and Zeonic/Federation preference.

 

But if you insist, I can do this dance a little longer.

[ChaosMorning]

I grant you have a point, we both only have access to the lore presented via Asunder and our clearly separate views on it, and given from what was revealed of Masked Empire, The mage issue wasn't overly covered so its doubtful Cole will appear in any medium until DAI.

 

We can continue this speculative back and forth if you like but to be honest, I'd prefer debating a subject I'd actually enjoy debating. Such as Mage/Templar Dynamics, World War two stratagems, Socioeconomic Policies, Ideologies and Zeonic/Federation preference.

 

But if you insist, I can do this dance a little longer.

 

And even then, we have no real idea if Cole even is going to be in Inquisition.

 

Well, we kind of have done that before (I found that thread we debated in before) http://forum.bioware...on-age-asunder/ We could discuss the Mage - Templar issue again, though, but this wouldn't be the thread for it - and I'm only interested in social aspects of the issues you've mentioned there (sociology is a favorite social science of mine).  

 

However, I think that would boil down to what it did last time (I'd really recommend re-reading that thread if you don't remember it well - or for anyone reading at the moment - there are a lot of people with many wonderful points concerning Cole, Evangeline, Lambert and the Mage - Templar conflict).  You would argue in favour of the Templars - and by that extent collective safety as a priority - while I would support the mages - and by that extent individual freedom as a priority.  The very idea of the Templar Order, the Seekers of Truth, the Circle system itself are unjust at their very core, it is oppression.

 

That said, you may recall that I support the Circle system.  I would love for everyone to just be free to traipse through the world, singing and dancing, but I acknowledge that the people of Thedas are not at the moment capable of accepting the mages into their everyday society. More over the mages need some sort of way to learn to control magic, and the Circle's would be better if simply - well, not simply of course - reformed. Heavily reformed. With no Templars or Tranquility or Chantry influence. I expect you would disagree with those last couple points though, and I understand why. 

[Solas]

Master Warder Z...? Hey, aren't you the same person who argued so strongly about Cole on my Asunder Character thread back at the Social Bioware forum? Well, if so it's lovely to see you out and arguing about again

 

 

But, onto the matter at hand, yes? I do love a good Cole debate.

 

 

Now, we could talk about Cole in relation to Platonic or Aristotelian ethics, views of justice and happiness and friendship (ooh, a Aristotelian account of Cole and Rhys' relationship would be fun! Or, or, an account of Cole in comparison to Plato and Aristotle's models of the soul!) if you'd like. However, I think this should be enough for the moment.

Please share! I do so love reading peoples' thoughts on Cole

[ChaosMorning]

Please share! I do so love reading peoples' thoughts on Cole

 

Well sure, why not?

 

Aristotle has a relatively pragmatic system of beliefs as depicted in Nicomachean Ethics, the writings that centred around his beliefs that Happiness is what all strive for, the human condition explained through a series of specific virtues.   Plato on the other hand believes that humans are rational beings, interested in living a life of reason, their desire being to find their telos - our purpose.

 

As a side note, the Qunari society is soooooo The Republic. The City described in that book is pretty much the Qunari. It was so awesome reading that and being like... holy hell is this what inspired the Qunari?! The Noble Lie from the Republic almost mirrors the division between the three sections of Qunari society - both in deciding roles and in that the three types of people in the Republic are described as having Gold, Silver and Bronze in them, those three being the colours used to describe the Gold/Silver/Bronze Giants in codex entries (and seen with many of the racial qunari that we've seen thus far, save the Gold who, in relation to the Republic would be the Qunari preisthood). 

 

Ahem, sorry about that, now, Cole. Rationality and Reason are paramount in these sort of studies, every action is supposed to 'seek some good,' for Cole his own Good isn't really what we'd consider good, but let's just look at it like this: for Cole, his ends are being real, wanting to be seen and remembered and to not disappear as he is so afraid of - the means he uses to get to these ends have been murder (albeit of people who asked to die in most cases, but regardless). That is his Good. 

 

We could look at the Virtues and see how Cole would relate to them - some would be interesting but a lot don't really apply given Cole's unique nature of not really being human  anymore. His friendship with Rhys would be another thing to look at because capital-F Friendship was a biggie for the Greeks. 

 

But I'll stop for now because I don't want a wall of (mediocre attempts at) philosophical comparisons annoying everyone. Sorry about that, haha, this is probably a little weird.

[Master Warder Z]

And even then, we have no real idea if Cole even is going to be in Inquisition.

 

Well, we kind of have done that before (I found that thread we debated in before) http://forum.bioware...on-age-asunder/ We could discuss the Mage - Templar issue again, though, but this wouldn't be the thread for it - and I'm only interested in social aspects of the issues you've mentioned there (sociology is a favorite social science of mine).  

 

However, I think that would boil down to what it did last time (I'd really recommend re-reading that thread if you don't remember it well - or for anyone reading at the moment - there are a lot of people with many wonderful points concerning Cole, Evangeline, Lambert and the Mage - Templar conflict).  You would argue in favour of the Templars - and by that extent collective safety as a priority - while I would support the mages - and by that extent individual freedom as a priority.  The very idea of the Templar Order, the Seekers of Truth, the Circle system itself are unjust at their very core, it is oppression.

 

That said, you may recall that I support the Circle system.  I would love for everyone to just be free to traipse through the world, singing and dancing, but I acknowledge that the people of Thedas are not at the moment capable of accepting the mages into their everyday society. More over the mages need some sort of way to learn to control magic, and the Circle's would be better if simply - well, not simply of course - reformed. Heavily reformed. With no Templars or Tranquility or Chantry influence. I expect you would disagree with those last couple points though, and I understand why. 

 

 

The circle is no more an oppression then any Interment action. And this effort is required more then any reality based concept you could conceivably compare it to as well.

 

Of course, Even the corrupt and egoistical Imperium maintains tranquils and Templars, Thedas need to maintain both to keep the circle working, same for the Chantry unless if you want the circles to merely become tools of the Monarchies anyway. The Chantry is good at providing third party funding and keeping the circle out of Thedas's politics and war's for the most part. Add in that the Circles at present even if granted independence couldn't support their functions nor the needed facilities or materials and there are obvious financial reasons why the Chantry must remained involved as well.Of course, Individualism in and of it self isn't something negative but putting priority over the collective is what i take issue with.

 

But as you said this isn't the thread for this.

[dragonflight288]

Well sure, why not?

 

Aristotle has a relatively pragmatic system of beliefs as depicted in Nicomachean Ethics, the writings that centred around his beliefs that Happiness is what all strive for, the human condition explained through a series of specific virtues.   Plato on the other hand believes that humans are rational beings, interested in living a life of reason, their desire being to find their telos - our purpose.

 

As a side note, the Qunari society is soooooo The Republic. The City described in that book is pretty much the Qunari. It was so awesome reading that and being like... holy hell is this what inspired the Qunari?! The Noble Lie from the Republic almost mirrors the division between the three sections of Qunari society - both in deciding roles and in that the three types of people in the Republic are described as having Gold, Silver and Bronze in them, those three being the colours used to describe the Gold/Silver/Bronze Giants in codex entries (and seen with many of the racial qunari that we've seen thus far, save the Gold who, in relation to the Republic would be the Qunari preisthood). 

 

Ahem, sorry about that, now, Cole. Rationality and Reason are paramount in these sort of studies, every action is supposed to 'seek some good,' for Cole his own Good isn't really what we'd consider good, but let's just look at it like this: for Cole, his ends are being real, wanting to be seen and remembered and to not disappear as he is so afraid of - the means he uses to get to these ends have been murder (albeit of people who asked to die in most cases, but regardless). That is his Good. 

 

We could look at the Virtues and see how Cole would relate to them - some would be interesting but a lot don't really apply given Cole's unique nature of not really being human  anymore. His friendship with Rhys would be another thing to look at because capital-F Friendship was a biggie for the Greeks. 

 

But I'll stop for now because I don't want a wall of (mediocre attempts at) philosophical comparisons annoying everyone. Sorry about that, haha, this is probably a little weird.

 

Not at all. I've also studied a bit of philosophy and plenty of literature, and it's nice to see someone make these comparisons in an articulate manner. 

[ChaosMorning]

The circle is no more an oppression then any Interment action. And this effort is required more then any reality based concept you could conceivably compare it to as well.

 

Of course, Even the corrupt and egoistical Imperium maintains tranquils and Templars, Thedas need to maintain both to keep the circle working, same for the Chantry unless if you want the circles to merely become tools of the Monarchies anyway. The Chantry is good at providing third party funding and keeping the circle out of Thedas's politics and war's for the most part. Add in that the Circles at present even if granted independence couldn't support their functions nor the needed facilities or materials and there are obvious financial reasons why the Chantry must remained involved as well.Of course, Individualism in and of it self isn't something negative but putting priority over the collective is what i take issue with.

 

But as you said this isn't the thread for this.

 

The Circle system is an injustice by principle - the forceful removal of a child from their family (most cases families will never see nor communicate with their children), never being allowed from your Circle unless you've received express permission from the Templars, eventually not being allowed to gather in groups or leave your quarters (described as 'cells' in Kirkwall's Gallows), and magical lobotomy in the form of 'Tranquility.'   And that's without the abuses of the Templars - the likes of which I won't get into.

 

The Circle could work if it were changed drastically, but at the moment it can't and doesn't.  Oh, and currently the Chantry's kinda falling apart so it's financial back up isn't much of a factor. And in terms of Freedom/Security, you'll never have security if freedom is denied.

 

But yes, sorry guys, back to everyone's favorite whatever-he-is. Sorry for the derailment.

 

 

Not at all. I've also studied a bit of philosophy and plenty of literature, and it's nice to see someone make these comparisons in an articulate manner. 

 

 

Oh why thank you, Aristotle is actually one of the philosopher's I'm least well versed in so I'm glad to see it was put well enough. After exams I may decided to do a few DA meta essays or something (on Qunari and the Republic, Cole, the nature of the Fade and its dwellers and the Mage - Templar conflict). It'd be fun.

[Master Warder Z_]

the forceful removal of a child from their family (most cases families will never see nor communicate with their children)

 

Normal people for the most part are incapable of acting as suitable parents to Mages, Isolde proved that quite Adamantly, They lack the expertise and the knowledge needed to provide care and education for Magic wielding children. So yes to remove them is to do them a service, both to them and their parents.

 

 

never being allowed from your Circle unless you've received express permission from the Templars

 

This is patently untrue, Rhy's Master was given leave to travel to the Imperium, Bloody Tevinter with out so much as an escort, Apprentices were allowed out of the White Spire to visit the Capital. To imply it was always what was seen in recent years is inaccurate to say the least, Rising concerns over security and mage prompted issue resulted in the Circle being more confined then it ever was decades prior.

 

 

eventually not being allowed to gather in groups or leave your quarters

 

Again Mage issues prompted this, Fiona was no boon mage kind let me assure, at least in so far as how they were treated. Her Predecessor kept the Fraternities and circles stable, enjoyable and well off for years and within not a decade of her assuming the position, we have rebellion. Coincidence? I don't think so personally.

 

and magical lobotomy

 

I do bloody loath how people compare the removal of emotion with digging portions of the brain out with power tools, Lobotomy has killed people, has rendered them crippled and incapable of even basic cognition and movement, but yet we compare it to a rite that safeguards mages against demonic possession and is most often applied by their own choice of taking it over the harrowing.

 

 

Oh, and currently the Chantry's kinda falling apart so it's financial back up isn't much of a factor. And in terms of Freedom/Security, you'll never have security if freedom is denied.

 

It bankrolled the circles for the entirety of their existence and yet you question their ability to do so upon their return? And...Our own reality has shown that to not only be patently false, but also its ideological notion is debatable. Franklin was a good inventor and a half decent accountant, but he wasn't much for ideological notions in my eye.

 

The Circle system is an injustice by principle

 

Only if you view it as such, I view it as the only solution to maintain the common good. To keep normal people from the dangers of unchecked magic and the threats that magic entails.

 

The Circle could work

It already has been proven to work, a few whiny robes isn't changing how i perceive the system that maintains the balance of power.

[Wolfen09]

the theory works, the personnel didnt

[ChaosMorning]

Normal people for the most part are incapable of acting as suitable parents to Mages, Isolde proved that quite Adamantly, They lack the expertise and the knowledge needed to provide care and education for Magic wielding children. So yes to remove them is to do them a service, both to them and their parents.

 

 

never being allowed from your Circle unless you've received express permission from the Templars

 

This is patently untrue, Rhy's Master was given leave to travel to the Imperium, Bloody Tevinter with out so much as an escort, Apprentices were allowed out of the White Spire to visit the Capital. To imply it was always what was seen in recent years is inaccurate to say the least, Rising concerns over security and mage prompted issue resulted in the Circle being more confined then it ever was decades prior.

 

 

 

Again Mage issues prompted this, Fiona was no boon mage kind let me assure, at least in so far as how they were treated. Her Predecessor kept the Fraternities and circles stable, enjoyable and well off for years and within not a decade of her assuming the position, we have rebellion. Coincidence? I don't think so personally.

 

 

I do bloody loath how people compare the removal of emotion with digging portions of the brain out with power tools, Lobotomy has killed people, has rendered them crippled and incapable of even basic cognition and movement, but yet we compare it to a rite that safeguards mages against demonic possession and is most often applied by their own choice of taking it over the harrowing.

 

 

 

It bankrolled the circles for the entirety of their existence and yet you question their ability to do so upon their return? And...Our own reality has shown that to not only be patently false, but also its ideological notion is debatable. Franklin was a good inventor and a half decent accountant, but he wasn't much for ideological notions in my eye.

 

 

Only if you view it as such, I view it as the only solution to maintain the common good. To keep normal people from the dangers of unchecked magic and the threats that magic entails.

 

The Circle could work

It already has been proven to work, a few whiny robes isn't changing how i perceive the system that maintains the balance of power.

 

Alright, this is the last reply I'll give to continue this derailment from the topic.

 

1. There are many non-magical parents who do a... rather poor job of raising children and being parents as well, I don't see a Thedas social work program present to handle them. 

 

2. It is patently true. I said unless. Do you think Rhys' tutor was allowed to up and leave the White Spire whenever he wanted?  The only mage who got more leniency that we know of was Wynne, and that was due to her many years of service.  Even the First Enchanter's were not allowed to leave on their own if the Templars didn't allow it - Meredith confined Orsino to the Gallows (and no, I'm not going to accept a retort that says it's because he was 'stirring trouble').

 

3. 'Mage issues' are the result of the conditions in which they are forced into.  And we've debated about Fiona and Lambert before - quickly to summarize that, they're both extremists who took advantage where they could to do what they believed right.  Lambert is too extreme, just as Fiona is. They both have histories that given them strong prejudices, justified or no, against one another's faction. More moderate people are needed (and no, Barius isn't 

 

4. When writing the lobotomy comparison, I did think of that point. There is however, and thankfully, no other real world comparison I can make to it. Um... yes, given that the only mages who've been reversed from Tranquility preferred death to going back. The Tranquil are only content while Tranquil, because that's what it does to them. I'm going to say it isn't a safeguard so much as one of the most inhumane fates I can imagine. And no, I don't believe it is most often applied that way, we know of only a few who chose the Rite as most mages have stated they'd rather die.

 

5. When the Chantry returns, that's a 'when.'   The idea of keeping people in some sort of compound - guarded by jailer's who are very often prejudiced against mages - for their own good 'and the good of others' is unjust. 

 

6. And I do view it as such.  I think the Circle has the potential to do right, if say, the mages were trained and eventually allowed to leave at their own discretion when they are judged capable of handling themselves - or choosing to remain in a place with their people.  There are many ways the Circle could be improved, and I think that's the way that this must go if it's going to end well for anyone.  The fact is, removing choice is tyranny.

 

"You deny us our freedom so that you may sleep better at night, but I say it is a restless and undeserved slumber." 

 

*and really, a few 'whiny robes,' compared to a few sadists, rapists, and murderers? And, shall we see how the Templar's have done their job? Oh, wait, what's that? A war you say. Huh. (You may certainly say that the mages started it, but the Templar's push them to extremes and expect nothing to happen? You can't just subjugate people and expect them to thank you for doing such a swell job of protecting them)

 

However, we are done here. I'd like to see this thread stay open and I can only see it being locked if this continues to derail it.  If you wish, start a thread or message me (if you so wish, I'm willing to debate it, regardless to the fact that I doubt either of us will give on our beliefs concerning the matter given that, complexities aside, we value different ends of the Freedom/Security spectrum). Thank you for the argument though, I do respect the opinions you give and it is helpful to see 'from the other side,' on occasion.

[Master Warder Z_]

Alright, this is the last reply I'll give to continue this derailment from the topic.

 

1. There are many non-magical parents who do a... rather poor job of raising children and being parents as well, I don't see a Thedas social work program present to handle them. 

 

2. It is patently true. I said unless. Do you think Rhys' tutor was allowed to up and leave the White Spire whenever he wanted?  The only mage who got more leniency that we know of was Wynne, and that was due to her many years of service.  Even the First Enchanter's were not allowed to leave on their own if the Templars didn't allow it - Meredith confined Orsino to the Gallows (and no, I'm not going to accept a retort that says it's because he was 'stirring trouble').

 

3. 'Mage issues' are the result of the conditions in which they are forced into.  And we've debated about Fiona and Lambert before - quickly to summarize that, they're both extremists who took advantage where they could to do what they believed right.  Lambert is too extreme, just as Fiona is. They both have histories that given them strong prejudices, justified or no, against one another's faction. More moderate people are needed (and no, Barius isn't 

 

4. When writing the lobotomy comparison, I did think of that point. There is however, and thankfully, no other real world comparison I can make to it. Um... yes, given that the only mages who've been reversed from Tranquility preferred death to going back. The Tranquil are only content while Tranquil, because that's what it does to them. I'm going to say it isn't a safeguard so much as one of the most inhumane fates I can imagine. And no, I don't believe it is most often applied that way, we know of only a few who chose the Rite as most mages have stated they'd rather die.

 

5. When the Chantry returns, that's a 'when.'   The idea of keeping people in some sort of compound - guarded by jailer's who are very often prejudiced against mages - for their own good 'and the good of others' is unjust. 

 

6. And I do view it as such.  I think the Circle has the potential to do right, if say, the mages were trained and eventually allowed to leave at their own discretion when they are judged capable of handling themselves - or choosing to remain in a place with their people.  There are many ways the Circle could be improved, and I think that's the way that this must go if it's going to end well for anyone.  The fact is, removing choice is tyranny.

 

"You deny us our freedom so that you may sleep better at night, but I say it is a restless and undeserved slumber." 

 

*and really, a few 'whiny robes,' compared to a few sadists, rapists, and murderers? And, shall we see how the Templar's have done their job? Oh, wait, what's that? A war you say. Huh. (You may certainly say that the mages started it, but the Templar's push them to extremes and expect nothing to happen? You can't just subjugate people and expect them to thank you for doing such a swell job of protecting them)

 

However, we are done here. I'd like to see this thread stay open and I can only see it being locked if this continues to derail it.  If you wish, start a thread or message me (if you so wish, I'm willing to debate it, regardless to the fact that I doubt either of us will give on our beliefs concerning the matter given that, complexities aside, we value different ends of the Freedom/Security spectrum). Thank you for the argument though, I do respect the opinions you give and it is helpful to see 'from the other side,' on occasion.

 

1. It's called the Circle, This isn't the Netherlands or California, This is a Feudalistic Fantasy society.

 

2. Do you think it odd to expect full blown mages to be trusted before being able to leave the Circle? He did however travel the Impeirum, visit the circle there and did so with out even a Templar escort. And The devs have repeatedly stated, but perhaps you have missed that Kirkwall was an extreme situation to the insane degree for both factions, Hardly the norm.

 

3.  Uh-huh, You seem to ignore that under him however the Circle was more or less stable, no mass lock down, no real notable issues but as i said. Fiona was there a decade before the current crisis, Hardly speaks well of her.

 

4.  Its a crude and inaccurate comparison, i don't care if the Devs claimed it comparable or no, When you actually study the effects of the practice beyond merely glancing at its Wikipedia Article you begin to see that Tranquility Lobotomy have LITTLE in common. This even goes beyond application and side effects, As i said when you can compare the loss of emotional context to the loss of cognition there truly is nothing to that sentiment beyond hyperbole.  Subjective and conjecture given that the few cases of the undone tranquil resulted in them being emotionally incapable of expressing moderate sentiment, they were upon the verge of hysterics so, i don't take it as credible personally. When they actually achieve emotionally stability and can rationally discuss the subject perhaps their opinion would have more merit.Owain, Orana Possibly Keli.

 

When you have more moderate Mages then Anders declare it to be comparable with a beheading perhaps mage sentiment on it would matter more to me, So far you have a handful of lunatics who despise it merely because it would be quickly applied to them if possible.

 

5. I have a few speculative idea's about this, but to cut it short because that would be several paragraphs by it self, the Circle is likely going to return because of impact into the sequel games, its hard to...Place widely differing paths into sequel titles, so there likely will be a common convergence on the issue and the return of the circle is the most likely one.

 

6.  Mmm, Mages would need be restricted outside of the circle, freedom is a subjective construct i have no interest in giving them but for the sake of debate, if allowed outside of the circle i would still seek to implement many of the restrictions of the circle upon them. Free? Fine, Equal? Never.

 

Orsino was hardly the person you would want to quote given that he was involved with Quentin, He allowed the corruption of the Kirkwall circle to fester into what it was depected in the Game, you think Meredith was wrong about him? The Mages there? Its funny because every time you turn you're back you have the circle mages there becoming abominations, blood mages or consorting with demons or apostates. Hardly the best defense they could offer, honestly Meredith may have been a nutjob by act three but she wasn't wrong about the circle of Kirkwall.

 

So basically you get to spam a final response but i am snubbed with the aspect of derailing the thread if i actually address the issue you brought up? Well that's a bit nasty.

[Tinxa]

I could see him being a companion. There's supposed to be 9 of them and other companions we know seem to be just regular people. Bioware usually likes to add at least 1 companion that is something different: like Justice, Legion, Shale, possessed Anders, Fenris with magical tatoos... and Dog   

I can see Cole as a character filling that spot.

[Master Warder Z_]

Or you know, They could just given you an Orlesian Wasp Hound.

 

Sounds better to me then Cole

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Or you know, They could just given you an Orlesian Wasp Hound.

 

Sounds better to me then Cole

Is Orlais like Avatar: The Last Airbender where every practically every animal is a mixture of two animals?

[ChaosMorning]

1. It's called the Circle, This isn't the Netherlands or California, This is a Feudalistic Fantasy society.

 

2. Do you think it odd to expect full blown mages to be trusted before being able to leave the Circle? He did however travel the Impeirum, visit the circle there and did so with out even a Templar escort. And The devs have repeatedly stated, but perhaps you have missed that Kirkwall was an extreme situation to the insane degree for both factions, Hardly the norm.

 

3.  Uh-huh, You seem to ignore that under him however the Circle was more or less stable, no mass lock down, no real notable issues but as i said. Fiona was there a decade before the current crisis, Hardly speaks well of her.

 

4.  Its a crude and inaccurate comparison, i don't care if the Devs claimed it comparable or no, When you actually study the effects of the practice beyond merely glancing at its Wikipedia Article you begin to see that Tranquility Lobotomy have LITTLE in common. This even goes beyond application and side effects, As i said when you can compare the loss of emotional context to the loss of cognition there truly is nothing to that sentiment beyond hyperbole.  Subjective and conjecture given that the few cases of the undone tranquil resulted in them being emotionally incapable of expressing moderate sentiment, they were upon the verge of hysterics so, i don't take it as credible personally. When they actually achieve emotionally stability and can rationally discuss the subject perhaps their opinion would have more merit.Owain, Orana Possibly Keli.

 

When you have more moderate Mages then Anders declare it to be comparable with a beheading perhaps mage sentiment on it would matter more to me, So far you have a handful of lunatics who despise it merely because it would be quickly applied to them if possible.

 

5. I have a few speculative idea's about this, but to cut it short because that would be several paragraphs by it self, the Circle is likely going to return because of impact into the sequel games, its hard to...Place widely differing paths into sequel titles, so there likely will be a common convergence on the issue and the return of the circle is the most likely one.

 

6.  Mmm, Mages would need be restricted outside of the circle, freedom is a subjective construct i have no interest in giving them but for the sake of debate, if allowed outside of the circle i would still seek to implement many of the restrictions of the circle upon them. Free? Fine, Equal? Never.

 

Orsino was hardly the person you would want to quote given that he was involved with Quentin, He allowed the corruption of the Kirkwall circle to fester into what it was depected in the Game, you think Meredith was wrong about him? The Mages there? Its funny because every time you turn you're back you have the circle mages there becoming abominations, blood mages or consorting with demons or apostates. Hardly the best defense they could offer, honestly Meredith may have been a nutjob by act three but she wasn't wrong about the circle of Kirkwall.

 

So basically you get to spam a final response but i am snubbed with the aspect of derailing the thread if i actually address the issue you brought up? Well that's a bit nasty.

 

To that last point, I was most certainly not trying to 'snub' you after 'spamming' a response. Dear, I've been nothing but polite (mind you, perhaps I should work on my manners? I'll keep that in mind during my etiquette training [okay, that sounded petty, apologies]) during our previous messages. My only point is to say that we (you'll note, dear, that this means you and I) are both derailing the thread.  To that end I invited you to carry this conversation on with me in private so that we don't get this thread closed.

 

I think that's reasonable, is it not?  I would love to continue speaking and answering your points, just not here.

 

And so I will message you then, if that's alright. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Do so then.

[Flurdt Vash]

No comment

[Grieving Natashina]

To that last point, I was most certainly not trying to 'snub' you after 'spamming' a response. Dear, I've been nothing but polite (mind you, perhaps I should work on my manners? I'll keep that in mind during my etiquette training [okay, that sounded petty, apologies]) during our previous messages. My only point is to say that we (you'll note, dear, that this means you and I) are both derailing the thread.  To that end I invited you to carry this conversation on with me in private so that we don't get this thread closed.

 

I think that's reasonable, is it not?  I would love to continue speaking and answering your points, just not here.

 

And so I will message you then, if that's alright. 

Mae?!?

 

 

 

I think that the thread just got way more interesting.

[Brass_Buckles]

Can we please get back on topic?  There are, in fact, people here who still want to discuss Cole, the character.  Discussion has, up to this point, been polite, civil, and has also pertained to Cole.

 

And having said that!

 

Whether or not Cole is actually present in DA:I, there are interesting possibilities regarding what the Inquisitor might hear about him, considering he's no longer necessarily confining himself to the Tower.  And, well, when you're invisible, you can do all kinds of things no one else can.  Food for thought, there.

[Master Warder Z_]

Not my fault that something more interesting came up then that half dimensional waif who deluded himself into person hood.

 

Also you're late, discussion already shifted and moved on.

 

You can resume you're talk of the demon.

[dragonflight288]

Hmm...when applying Dragon Age issues to real-world philosophies throughout history, I don't ask this to derail but to clarify, which section would be the best place to start such a thread? Scuttlebutt? 

[Grieving Natashina]

Hmm...when applying Dragon Age issues to real-world philosophies throughout history, I don't ask this to derail but to clarify, which section would be the best place to start such a thread? Scuttlebutt? 

Scuttlebutt would be the safest bet.