370 réponses à ce sujet

[XMissWooX]

As Banxey posted:

"My theory is that it was a spirit of compassion who came to comfort the boy-Cole. When the boy died, the spirit found itself trapped outside of the fade and became a shade who clung to the boy's memories, eventually coming to believe it was the boy. The memories ended up shaping how spirit-Cole perceived it's purpose and at some point the spirit killed out of a corrupted view of compassion (even though Cole accidentally killed his sister, he freed her from torment). The power it gained from the murders made it feel more alive, and over time it slowly became more and more corrupt. Sort of like the Anders/Justice situation with Anders' beliefs corrupting Justice, but with a less physical basis of course."

I'm in agreement with this.

Just a few thoughts:

* The entity came to a dying boy in order to comfort him - that seems like something a Spirit would do, rather than a Demon.
* After the death of the 'real' Cole, the entity supposedly became confused and eventually came to believe he was Cole - supposedly mimicking his appearance, incorporating his memories and taking his name.
* The entity is capable of using magic, such as becoming invisible and making people forget about it - and the Litany of Adralla repels that magic, suggesting Blood Magic.
* It kills for two reasons - 1) because it feels it will disappear if it doesn't, 2) because it feels that these people want to die and is willing to 'help' them.
* The entity is capable of human emotion - friendship and loyalty to Rhys, fear and hatred of Lambert.
* It seems to have a physical prescence outside the Fade - something which can only apparently be achieved by powerful Demons/Spirits.

I would be interested to see Cole appear in DAI or a later game. I'd hope to find out exactly what he is, and see how his personality has changed now that he is more self-aware.

I'm aware that there are quite a number of people who don't like Cole, which surprises me a little because I felt that David Gaider wrote him to be rather sympathetic.

[JakeOfDiamonds]

That is actually a great theory. Oh, and having that Cole as a companion would not only be amazing, it would also uphold the tradition of having possessed companions.

 

I'm glad you thinks so!

 

What I'm more curious about is the character development he would have if he were a companion. We know that the Tranquil can be returned to normal, emotion-feeling state. And in the past, we've seen instances of people expelling their inner-demons (and inner-spirits, if you've read Asunder). So I'll be interested to see if Cole the Human still exists in some form (I mean, his memories still exist, we've visited one of his nightmares), or if it's all just Demon. Like, can he be saved? Returned to his natural state? The Demon be purified from its corruption? And then base all of this off of player choices in your playthrough? Immense.

 

And to those wondering "How would they make him a companion, people can't remember him for more than a day or so?" One of the major plot themes of DAI is that the Fade has opened up in several places, in a large amount. Cole could be seen, and remembered, normally in the Fade. If the Fade and Thedas are now linked as closely as they are through these breaches, who is to say Cole isn't seen and remembered as he would be there?

[Master Warder Z_]

If he does appear i do hope the option to behead the demon comes forth

 

That would really be appeasing.

 

His constant moaning and whining and bewitching Rhys belay any feelings i had about slaying the abominaiton, Insanity is what dictates that husk of a person.

[ChaosMorning]

ChaosMorning and I are on the same page from the sounds of it. I think Cole has underwent several 'forms' as it were. I'll do them in order;

 

1). Cole, the human mage. A young boy, with an abusive father, a deceased mother, and a sister he accidentally smothered to death. Used his mother's dagger, a keepsake from her, to murder said father. And was then taken to the Orlesian Circle, thrown in a dungeon. He was afraid, and hoped for release.

 

2). Cole, the Hope Spirit Abomination. A spirit from the fade visited him in his cell. We believe it was benevolent because it was there to comfort him while he was powerless against his templar captors. This spirit was with him until the very end, much as how Wynne's Faith Spirit was there for her. Hope is apparently the strongest form of Spirit (at least 'so far encountered'), which would lead one to believe that it's next form is even more powerful than we can comprehend.

 

3). Cole, the Despair Demon Abomination. When the Templars were too rough on Cole and he passed away, they erased all evidence of him to hide their shame. The spirit didn't like this, it was corrupted, in a way similar to Justice becoming Vengeance. We've been told to expect new types of demons in DAI, and I thought I remembered hearing something about a Despair Demon. Cole, the boy, is an abomination. The spirit of hope is no longer. And what remains is an extremely powerful despair demon. One who, for most of the book, was unsure what he was. Cole the Human versus Cole the Abomination, both struggling for some resemblance of identity and control.

 

The Litany of Andrella works on him (works on demons), he's capable of extremely potent blood magic (a skill learned from demons), and in the epilogue of Asunder, he comes back and basically tells us "Cole actually existed, and was powerless. Now I'm here, I'm self-aware, and I'm not nearly as powerless." I read the book and thought "This would be an incredible companion for a future game." Like, we've had Mage Warriors, and Warrior Mages. But Cole would be one heck of a Mage Rogue. "A Spirit Assassin." He carries a dagger, does all of his killing with the dagger, and is unbelievably skilled in Blood Magic so much, that he wasn't even willingly using it. Imagine the squad dynamic he'd bring. A Self-Sustaining Blood Mage Rogue. It's marvelous, and terrifying, all in one.

 

Oh yes, it seems we are.  This is the exact theory I have for Cole too, right down to his potential mix of magical/Fade-related abilities while being classes as a Rogue.

[Rainbow Wyvern]

I am really interested in learning just what Cole is. Ever since I finished reading Asunder a few days ago I wanted Cole as a companion. 

I like the theory that he's a spirit-of-Hope-turned-Despair-demon. I can't see him being anything other than formerly Hope; Compassion would be the only other known spirit to fit, but it seems too weak. Or maybe Mercy, but it's not listed as one of the five on the wiki, so....

Game's been needing some form of odd rogue-hybrid-class-thing anyway and I think Cole could fit the bill nicely. What with the whole sneaky-stabby-blood-magey-spirit-demon thing. 

 

Just... no LI status, please. That's... just, no. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Just... no LI status, please. That's... just, no. 

 

I understand that notion completely, why people would want to bed another whiny demon is beyond me.

 

Wasn't Anders enough?

[Lulupab]

I understand that notion completely, why people would want to bed another whiny demon is beyond me.

 

Wasn't Anders enough?

 

The only reason I wouldn't romance Cole is because he is literally underage.

 

You put too many negativity on possession. Though its understandable you don't need a demon to put an entire city in danger and causing their death (Isabela). Murdering people for delight and money (Zevran). Openly deal with demons (Merril). Be as selfish as definition of selfish allows you to be(Morrigan). Whine a lot, be a hypocrite and viciously kill people (Fenris). Demons are not required to do "Demony" things. (Amusingly the fact that Justice was a demon is itself a long debate as ingame conversations all regard him as a spirit, even a demon sees him as spirit)

 

All of said characters are LIs. Possession is not a reason not to romance someone, nothing is. Some are worse or on par with Anders. At least Anders is on league of most handsome men, rivaled only by Alistair.

[Gervaise]

Cole is different from the other spirit inhabited persons we have encountered.    Wynne was "rescued" by a spirit from death, but the spirit is contained within her form.   We see Wynne and the spirit is invisible in the mortal world and vice versa in the Fade (or rather it is easier to see the spirit showing through).  The same was true of Anders and Justice.   Occasionally Justice would seem to break out at times of high emotion but on the whole what we see is Anders.   

 

Back in Awakenings Justice inhabited the body of a dead grey warden.   This is the closest we have to the situation with Cole but Justice was always visible and yet Cole is not.     Cole seemingly needed blood magic to keep his link to the mortal realm, yet Justice did not and was said to be "trapped" there.    What is even odder is that Cole disappeared when Lambert recited the Litany, yet was able to come back, apparently much stronger.   As far as I could tell, all of Cole's previous victims were in a state of desperation and fear before he appeared to them.   This was also true of the boy Cole when the spirit came to him.   Whereas Lambert was completely the opposite having just successfully got all the Knight Commanders to side with him and told the Divine where to go.   

 

If nothing else, I would like Cole to return in some form or other just so we can have an explanation of what he is and why he was able to appear to Lambert at the end.

[CuriousArtemis]

Yeah, I actually did want to romance Cole for a long time, partly because he appears to suddenly "mature" in the final chapter. I definitely NEVER wanted to romance the child-like creature he seemed to be for most of the novel. But a mature Cole intrigued me, and I wanted to be able to form that special bond that you form with a LI in a BW game.

 

But DG expressed shock that anyone would want to romance him and firmly stated that Cole has the mind of a child, so it's not going to happen....

[Rainbow Wyvern]

The only reason I wouldn't romance Cole is because he is literally underage.

 

You put too many negativity on possession. Though its understandable you don't need a demon to put an entire city in danger and causing their death (Isabela). Murdering people for delight and money (Zevran). Openly deal with demons (Merril). Be as selfish as definition of selfish allows you to be(Morrigan). Whine a lot, be a hypocrite and viciously kill people (Fenris). Demons are not required to do "Demony" things. (Amusingly the fact that Justice was a demon is itself a long debate as ingame conversations all regard him as a spirit, even a demon sees him as spirit)

 

All of said characters are LIs. Possession is not a reason not to romance someone, nothing is. Some are worse or on par with Anders. At least Anders is on league of most handsome men, rivaled only by Alistair.

Not trying to turn this into an Anders discussion, but I'm pretty sure blowing up a freakin' Chantry, forcing innocent mages into a rebellion they might not want, and killing tons of innocents in the process is heck of a lot worse than anything the other characters did.

And Anders is a hell of a lot whinier and much more hypocritical than Fenris is.

 

Why do I keep responding to off-topic posts? goshdarnit

[Master Warder Z_]

Why do I keep responding to off-topic posts? goshdarnit

 

Why can't a thread ever be derailed by dicussion of how dang hot Fenris's voice was?

 

@___@

[Hellion Rex]

I am really interested in learning just what Cole is. Ever since I finished reading Asunder a few days ago I wanted Cole as a companion. 

I like the theory that he's a spirit-of-Hope-turned-Despair-demon. I can't see him being anything other than formerly Hope; Compassion would be the only other known spirit to fit, but it seems too weak. Or maybe Mercy, but it's not listed as one of the five on the wiki, so....

Game's been needing some form of odd rogue-hybrid-class-thing anyway and I think Cole could fit the bill nicely. What with the whole sneaky-stabby-blood-magey-spirit-demon thing. 

 

Just... no LI status, please. That's... just, no. 

Don't worry. David Gaider blew that idea straight to hell months ago lol

[Hellion Rex]

Why can't a thread ever be derailed by dicussion of how dang hot Fenris's voice was?

 

@___@

Lord have mercy. If we ever derailed a thread in that way, the hotness from that voice would burn BSN to the ground.

[Master Warder Z_]

Lord have mercy. If we ever derailed a thread in that way, the hotness from that voice would burn BSN to the ground.

 

Probably so

 

*Goes to write Fenris X Male Hawke fanfiction*

[Rainbow Wyvern]

Why can't a thread ever be derailed by dicussion of how dang hot Fenris's voice was?

 

@___@

The BSN isn't awesome enough for that, sadly.

[oceanicsurvivor]

I hope Cole appears but not as a companion character. I don't even know how that would work since everyone in the novel has trouble remembering him. So the Inquisitor is the only one who can see Cole? Mechanically, that just doesn't seem to work with the lore. But I definitely hope he appears in relation to some quests or something.

[Rainbow Wyvern]

I hope Cole appears but not as a companion character. I don't even know how that would work since everyone in the novel has trouble remembering him. So the Inquisitor is the only one who can see Cole? Mechanically, that just doesn't seem to work with the lore. But I definitely hope he appears in relation to some quests or something.

Maybe the Veil Tears affected him, or something.

Or maybe the Quizzy is like Rhys and can see him and not forget, whereas your companions can't?

[Mr.House]

I believe Cole was once a spirit of Hope, giving Cole hope, but as the days went on, Hope started to fall into Despair when Cole(human) started losing hope and will to live and when Cole died the spirit  became a Despair demon and took the name Cole and he started to kill mages who had lost hope to save them from the fate that Cole had.

[Lulupab]

Not trying to turn this into an Anders discussion, but I'm pretty sure blowing up a freakin' Chantry, forcing innocent mages into a rebellion they might not want, and killing tons of innocents in the process is heck of a lot worse than anything the other characters did.

And Anders is a hell of a lot whinier and much more hypocritical than Fenris is.

 

Why do I keep responding to off-topic posts? goshdarnit

 

I'm pretty sure Isabela sacrificed a whole city for her greed. What you said about Fenris is baseless and subjective. At best they are the same at different sides. He blames magic for literally everything. Befriending Fenris seems very unnatural because you have to agree with his nonsense that magic has ruined everything and must be blamed for everything. If Anders didn't destroy the Chantry then Anders and Fenris are literally the same extreme character at different sides. However Anders fully acknowledges that his actions were murder, and were morally contemptible, and that justice was required of him for what he did. Its a contradiction to hypocrisy.

 

I can see Cole as a companion but he won't be LI. There are over 6 candidates already.

[General TSAR]

I wonder how many Cole threads we will have. 

[Rainbow Wyvern]

I'm pretty sure Isabela sacrificed a whole city for her greed. What you said about Fenris is baseless and subjective. At best they are the same at different sides. He blames magic for literally everything. Befriending Fenris seems very unnatural because you have to agree with his nonsense that magic has ruined everything and must be blamed for everything. If Anders didn't destroy the Chantry then Anders and Fenris are literally the same extreme character at different sides. However Anders fully acknowledges that his actions were murder, and were morally contemptible, and that justice was required of him for what he did. Its a contradiction to hypocrisy.

 

I can see Cole as a companion but he won't be LI. There are over 6 candidates already.

*sighs*

It's not baseless and subjective. I can find many, many cases of Anders saying much more hypocritical things than Fenris ever does, but I don't really feel like replaying DA2.

 

 

Anyway... how about we don't derail this thread into an Anders and Fenris discussion? I clearly depise everything about Anders and am a Fenris fangirl, and you clearly like Anders and seem to dislike Fenris. 

 

Agree to disagree, yes?

[Lulupab]

*sighs*

It's not baseless and subjective. I can find many, many cases of Anders saying much more hypocritical things than Fenris ever does, but I don't really feel like replaying DA2.

 

 

Anyway... how about we don't derail this thread into an Anders and Fenris discussion? I clearly depise everything about Anders and am a Fenris fangirl, and you clearly like Anders and seem to dislike Fenris. 

 

Agree to disagree, yes?

 

I agree to disagree. However I like Anders and Fenris both and I also liked how they were portrayed. I am aware of both their good traits and the bad. I was never fanatical about anything. I will defend my own reasons of liking them but I usually don't defend them as a whole.

[Brass_Buckles]

Back on topic, please!

 

I don't actually think Cole is an abomination.  The templars "erased all evidence."  That suggests to me that child-Cole's body was burnt, thus there would not have been anything for the spirit to possess.  But since he'd been linked to Child-Cole's mind and suffering, he took on Cole's thoughts and memories.  Maybe he did that on purpose, to keep Cole alive in some way, and then began to lose his sense of identity due to being in the mortal realm.

 

No, Cole is purely a spirit.  And, yes, I think it would be beyond odd to romance him, because he doesn't even act like a teenager in the book, but much younger than that.  If he somehow matured mentally in another game or two, it might be different, but as-is?  No.

 

I'm not sure he's fully corrupted, since he seems to be battling his corruption.  Or as another said, he might be in the process of becoming a spirit, after having been a demon.  He clung to Rhys almost as a father figure.  The treatment he gives to Lambert isn't for himself, either, but for whatever sense of justice he has--and I'm sure it has more than a little to do with Lambert's treatment of Rhys.

 

As for Cole's murders, remember that even though he seems to have been using blood magic, he also didn't just randomly kill people.  He chose people who were in the depths of despair, as if trying to give them a way out.  So his intentions weren't purely selfish, even if his morality is rather suspect.  And, he was not only able but willing to stop killing when Rhys told him it was wrong.  The problem is, he just doesn't understand, because he's not human.  Even a child would tend to know that killing people is not a good thing to do, even if that child didn't fully understand the implications.  But Cole doesn't.

 

As for Cole the Spirit growing up... Again, I don't think he's an abomination, because when the templars cleaned up they would have burnt the corpse.  So there wasn't anything for Cole to possess.  Perhaps he realized that people normally grow up, so he did, too.  However, there's no telling how long he's been at the White Spire.  Maybe a couple of years, maybe a couple of centuries.  We don't know.

 

I could tell something was off about him from the start, with his refusal to refer to anyone by name unless he liked that person.  And yet at the same time, it would be like babysitting him constantly, because he is basically childlike.

 

I admit, I find the Architect similarly fascinating, and I kind of feel like both of them are tragic.  The Architect is inherently tainted, so no matter how decent he actually is or intends to be, he doesn't understand humanity (neither does Cole).  And, if the Architect succeeds in his plan, he's likely to set off the very events he's hoping to avoid.  If Cole keeps doing what he wants, he's going to corrupt himself, which seems to be something he is trying to avoid.  So there are some parallels.

[JeffZero]

I can confirm Cole is a...

...wait, who is Cole?*
















*I know who he is. If you've read Asunder, you'll get this.

[TheLittleBird]

^

 

I would like this 10 times over, but I seem to have run out of likes for the day...

Awesome comment, though. Kudos.