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Is Dumat the Maker ?


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#1
Seryuu

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Could it be that Dumat is the Maker ?

 

Ok here is my theory:

 

According to Corypheus Dumat was the one who convinced the Magisters to enter the golden city and when they arrived there it was already black. That makes me think that Dumat know that the city is black and that the Magisters would get corrupted when they arrived there. So Dumat tricked the Magisters in to becoming the first Darkspawn and then led them in the The First Blight where he apparently died. But he did not die, instead he tricked the Wardens in to believing that he is dead so that he can later trick the people that he is the Maker. And also before the First Blight he imprisoned the other Old Gods so that they don't get in his way.

 

But now you ask how i know that Dumat did not die ?

 

The answer is: Because in DA2 when you fight Corypheus he asks Dumat for power and he gets power, how would Dumat give him the power if he is dead  and why would anyone else grant him the power. That is the reason why i think that he is still alive.

 

With this theory both stories about the creation of the Darkspawn would make sense.



#2
Darth Wraith

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I just read a thread that linked to a post by David Gaider, saying specifically that the Old Gods and the Maker were not one and the same. So I guess not.



#3
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... no.



#4
Master Warder Z

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I AM THE MAKER!

 

...Also I am not a massive sentient dragon so I'd presume I am not Dumat.



#5
EmissaryofLies

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Dumat is the glimmer in your eye when you see a loved one. The rainbow in the sky after a rainstorm. The wind beneath your wings.

 

Dumat is all of us, OP, all of us.


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#6
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I read somewhere that there's a theory on Dumat being "Andraste" because Andraste was supposedly born the same year Dumat died, and that Andraste's just some alter-ego he uses to deceive and control people and not be threatened by Grey Wardens.



#7
wcholcombe

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I read somewhere that there's a theory on Dumat being "Andraste" because Andraste was supposedly born the same year Dumat died, and that Andraste's just some alter-ego he uses to deceive and control people and not be threatened by Grey Wardens.

 

Thats speculative at best and doesn't go along with anything we know.

 

Is it possible?  Yes.  Does it make sense or is it even likely?  No.  You do recall that Andraste basically destroyed the worship of the old gods?  Sure there was retalliation against the old gods when the blight happened, but they were still worshiped until Tevinter converted to Andrastian faith.



#8
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Dumat could've wiped out the worship of the other Old Gods to focus the worship on Andraste, AKA himself.



#9
Nyeredzi

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http://social.biowar...508455/3#509837 

 

 

-david gaider



#10
wcholcombe

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Dumat could've wiped out the worship of the other Old Gods to focus the worship on Andraste, AKA himself.

Except that didn't entirely work out either.  In Tevinter Andraste is number 3 on the hierarchy and in Orlais etc she is #2.

 

So neither religion truly worships Andraste.

 

Which isn't truly an improvement over the prior situation for Dumat as he was seen as the most powerful of the old gods.



#11
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Which isn't truly an improvement over the prior situation for Dumat as he was seen as the most powerful of the old gods.

 

Better than him dying, though. Who cares if he's #2 or #3? The Grey Wardens aren't after him any more. Dumat's probably smart enough to realize that. The fight with Corypheus pretty much makes it clear Dumat's still alive and kicking, somewhere, and is still pretty tough, giving him power and ****.

 

Dumat could be Andraste. Who knows?



#12
Aolbain

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...Also I am not a massive sentient dragon

 

We all know that's a lie.



#13
MisterJB

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Dumat did not grant Corypheus power. He was clearly absorbing it from the statues that Malcolm Hawke enchanted; given that thoe statues were imprisioning him, it follows that they were quite powerful.



#14
Gervaise

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Andraste got burnt to cinders so that was a spectacular fail if she was Dumat trying to avoid death.   Until something is shown to the contrary, I think you may assume that Dumat is dead and gone, his soul utterly destroyed.   Corypheus called upon his god in the same way that Sebastian appeals to Andraste or the Maker, that doesn't necessarily mean that either one actually responds to the appeal.



#15
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Dumat did not grant Corypheus power. He was clearly absorbing it from the statues that Malcolm Hawke enchanted; given that thoe statues were imprisioning him, it follows that they were quite powerful.

 

If I remember right there are altars of Dumat in either Origins or DA2 that you can make sacrifices to, and in return, you get items, some of them named after Dumat. I mean, maybe he drew his power from the statues, but it's not definitely written-out that Corypheus was getting help from Dumat. And the reason he couldn't "hear" Dumat any more could be because Dumat isn't exactly a Blight-leading Archdemon any more. He's Andraste. Or just surviving as a spirit in the Fade or something.



#16
Jedi Master of Orion

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If you defile the altar, demons attack you. They could be the ones granting Hawke and Corypheus anything.

 

Corypheus claimed that Dumat was the one who offered "the power of the gods themselves" by encouraging him to enter the Golden City. He could only have done that before he was an Archdemon.



#17
Jack Druthers

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I like your theory that there could be a possibility that Dumat is still alive.  Maybe he was alive up until the death of the Archdemon/Urthemiel and died at Fort Drakon.  Maybe he survived the Fifth Blight in another form?   We have little information on both The Old Gods and the Maker, and there are indications that the Maker may well remain a mystery.  My thoughts are that  Dumat is not the Maker, but he still could have had a hand in a lot of the situations that go back a thousand years when he was transformed into an Archdemon.  I get the feeling that if Dumat was a player, there were other players in this play, some of whom did not even realise they were being used.

 

Quote from David Gaider:

The cult of the Old Gods (I don't call it "the Tevinter religion" mainly because that, to me, speaks of the Imperial Chantry -- which is based in today's Tevinter Imperium) didn't contradict the existence of the Maker. Quite the opposite. The people of ancient Tevinter were aware of the existence of the Golden City and ascribed to "the Maker" (though this Creator was not called this until the appearance of the Chantry) the creation of the world. The Old Gods were not creators, though they were supposedly also not created. The Old Gods were outside of the Creator's Plan and showed up to whisper to mankind and teach them magic. According to the Chantry, they turned mankind away from their regard for a remote Creator (who ruled remotely and never interacted with his own creations) and that this is what made the Creator abandon the Golden City... though there is argument that the cult believed the Creator had abandoned it long before and that they were adrift, rescued by the Old Gods. Modern sages say that this is attempt to explain the hardships that the early human civilizations faced, and not evidence of the Maker actually being absent.

 

http://dragonage.wik...ki/Grey_Wardens The Grey wardens, The five Blights and their participation.

 

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Old_Gods The Old gods and their relationship to Magisters and Darkspawn

 

Quote from it:

What the Old Gods actually are and their relation to the Maker is very mysterious. It is unknown if one predates the other. The Old Gods are not creators and although they exist outside the Chantry's pantheon, the people of ancient Tevinter do attribute the creation of the world to the Maker, although by a different name.[The Chantry teaches that the Old Gods were false deities. They turned mortals from worship of the Maker, recognized as the "First Sin". As a result, the Maker imprisoned them underground. Their minds continued to roam the Fade like any other dreaming individuals' mind would, and they were able to contact the Magistersand teach them to use magic in hope that the magisters might free them. It was for this reason that the magisters entered the Golden City in a failed attempt to usurp the Maker's throne, inadvertently causing the First Blight.

 

http://dragonage.wik...tinel_armor_set Armour worn by an unnamed Anderfel Warrior who reportedly killed Dumat.

 

http://dragonage.wik...ki/First_Blight Dumat's corruption, his first Slaying and what came after.

Quote from it :

The Grey Wardens met with great success in their early years. A group of Ander soldiers even managed to slay Dumat while he was on the run from a Warden offensive. The celebrations were cut short when Dumat returned unharmed. In the years that followed, scholars learned that the Archdemon's death had only forced its soul to relocate into the body of the nearest darkspawn. Eventually it was proposed that if Dumat were slain by a Grey Warden, then his spirit would rush into the Warden's body. Unlike the darkspawn, a Warden's body already has a soul, and the resulting paradox would destroy both Warden and Archdemon

The Grey Wardens formed a formidable force made up largely of Tevinter, Rivaini and Ciriane soldiers. In a coordinated attack, they slew Dumat and routed the darkspawn forces at the Battle of the Silent Plains in -203 Ancient (992 TE). A third of all the human armies fell in the battle.

Dumat did not return in the years that followed. Although the darkspawn horde remained large in number and the battles persisted, without the Archdemon to lead them, they became disorganized and by -195 (1000 TE) were forced underground. For the surface world, the Blight was over.



#18
Divine Justinia V

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I wish



#19
Jack Druthers

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@: Divine Justina V There may be a promotion in it for you?



#20
Divine Justinia V

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@: Divine Justina V There may be a promotion in it for you?

 

Oh yes ;)



#21
Nocte ad Mortem

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People seem to disagree about the line Corypheus makes about the city being black. Some take it as evidence that the magisters did corrupt the city and some take it to mean he was saying the city was always black. To me, it sounded like he was saying the magisters were tricked and the city had been black since before they arrived. I wouldn't be surprised if that line wasn't left purposely vague enough for people to see it both ways for now.

 

I think it's possible Dumat could be alive. Flemeth can survive death. We know Morrigan thought there was at least one way that the old god souls could be preserved. I'm sure there are ways one could explain Dumat finding a way around death, as powerful as he supposedly was. Whether he is alive or not, though, I don't have a strong opinion. There isn't a lot of evidence in either direction. 



#22
Vulpe

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Could it be that Dumat is the Maker ?

 

Ok here is my theory:

 

According to Corypheus Dumat was the one who convinced the Magisters to enter the golden city and when they arrived there it was already black. That makes me think that Dumat know that the city is black and that the Magisters would get corrupted when they arrived there. So Dumat tricked the Magisters in to becoming the first Darkspawn and then led them in the The First Blight where he apparently died. But he did not die, instead he tricked the Wardens in to believing that he is dead so that he can later trick the people that he is the Maker. And also before the First Blight he imprisoned the other Old Gods so that they don't get in his way.

 

But now you ask how i know that Dumat did not die ?

 

The answer is: Because in DA2 when you fight Corypheus he asks Dumat for power and he gets power, how would Dumat give him the power if he is dead  and why would anyone else grant him the power. That is the reason why i think that he is still alive.

 

With this theory both stories about the creation of the Darkspawn would make sense.

 

The actual Maker, the creator of the worlds (matterial and spirit world) , of the elves, humans, dwarves, Old Gods et cetera... no way.

 

An imposter that claims to be The Maker...maybe, maybe not.



#23
Seryuu

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The actual Maker, the creator of the worlds (matterial and spirit world) , of the elves, humans, dwarves, Old Gods et cetera... no way.

 

An imposter that claims to be The Maker...maybe, maybe not.

 

That is what i actually meant, he tricked the people in to believing that he is the Maker ( the one that the Chantry worships) and not the actual Creator.



#24
Vulpe

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That is what i actually meant, he tricked the people in to believing that he is the Maker ( the one that the Chantry worships) and not the actual Creator.

 

I don't want to be rude, but since I joined the BSN, every topic that argued the possibility that The Maker might be fake or has a different identity ( ex: Fen'Harel, Dumant etc ) wasn't very clear when it came to the subject. This made people believe that the OP's referred to the actual creator of the world ( no David Gaider jokes please ) and not the entity that The Chantry considers to be the creator of the world ( which might be one and the same or a totaly different one - we'll never know ), thing that set the BSN ablaze.

 

I think this is one of those one and I hope that people will start to be more specific to whom they're referring when they say The Maker:

 

 

The creator of the world, the actual maker : I like to call him The Great Anonym

 

The Cantry Maker : The way Andrastianism chosed to represent the creator of the world. 

 

 

I have some experience with this kind of topics, so I have an ideea of what you are trying to say with your theory. Others might not.



#25
Zack_Nero

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Well the theory is wrong, (only because David Gaider said that their two separate things) the chantry would have a fit if they ever realize that the wardens are killing the Maker.