26 réponses à ce sujet

[dogeddie]

I enjoy playing a sword and shield paladin. I am not very far into the game, and have read some different guides on paladins, none of which are very favorable for a pure paladin. I am difinitely not a power gamer. What I am wondering is what will be the positives/negatives with going pure paladin vs paladin with divine champion mixed in? I do want to keep the flavor of a "holy man ass kicker" theme. Thanks

[Arkalezth]

Depends on the level. I'm going to assume that you're playing the OC and will reach level 20. Pure paladin gets more spells, mainly, whereas DC gets feats (not too good overall, though) and saves. If those are the options, I'd go with either paladin 20, or P18/DC2 or P16/DC4 if you want some more feats. But if you're going to multiclass, I'd look at other classes as well.

 

If you continue into epic levels, paladin gets a couple of bonus feats at level 23, 26 and 29 IIRC, but no spell progression after 20, so I'd suggest multiclassing at one point or another then.

[dogeddie]

Thanks. I guess I'd like to keep him as "paladiney" as possible. I have the OC and the two add ons. I doubt I will go beyond finishing those, if I even get that far.

[Arkalezth]

Here, I quickly threw together a basic paladin build. Adjust skills to taste, except for spellcraft, which you'll need for one of the feats. Improved critical isn't necessary if you have a keen weapon or a wizard/sorcerer companion:

 

http://nwn2db.com/build/?181305

 

Keep in mind, though, that clerics and favoured souls make much better "holy men ass kickers".

[dogeddie]

Thanks. Doesn't Tumble seem kind of lame for a guy in full armor to be realistic though?

[Arkalezth]

Yes. I put it there because it gives 1 extra point of AC. You can skip it and take something else; an extra point is nice, but not a game-changing feature.

[dogeddie]

On another note - I guess I always thought of clerics as sort of like nurses from a role playing perspective. I know they have alot of great stuff to offer, but I am partial to paladins in most games like this. I think I will stick with a pure paladin and see how it goes. Maybe after level 20 add something as you said.

[Luminus]

If you don't mind using mods, I would recommend Kaedrin's pack.
It improves Paladins specifically very much.

They get extra spells and a replacement for the mount which are the Divine Spirit abilities, as well as giving Paladin Prestige Classes (Champion of the Silver Flame, Shining Blade etc).

Though a pure vanilla Paladin is pretty viable also. Just boost Charisma, get Divine Might and Divine Shield and you're good to go.

For skills, I would raise Concentration and Diplomacy, personally. If you have an extra skill (like if you're Human) you can raise Heal as well, I guess.

Something people forget, is that pure Paladins make the best Smiters since that ability is dependent on their Paladin level.
An Epic pure Paladin with Great Smite and Divine Might and Charisma boosted really high, has awesome saves, does ton of divine damage, gets great AC with Divine Shield, their turning is actually quite good and Smite Evil REALLY hurts.

[Arkalezth]

Though a pure vanilla Paladin is pretty viable also. Just boost Charisma, get Divine Might and Divine Shield and you're good to go.

 

Unless you're going to reach epic levels and take epic divine might, just do the opposite of what that quote suggest.

 

Great smites do a lot of damage, yes... a few times per day. On the other hand, your AB will be low 99% of the time. Concentration can be perfectly skipped on a paladin, unless you're casting in combat for some reason, instead of just buffing beforehand.

 

Paladins are, first and foremost, warriors. Warriors need to be good at fighting in the first place, and their primary attribute is strength. Once you have that covered, you can start thinking about less important stuff like saving throws and other extras. Don't be fooled by all those divine feats; you can take them for flavour if you want, but the most powerful level 20 paladin probably has 8 charisma.

[Luminus]

Not necessarily. For Epic Divine Might you need 21 STR too which means you need to use your epic feats for either Great Strength or Great Charisma.
Epic Feats you could use for Great Smite or something else. Unless you go RDD, which I hate as a cheesy and overused class.

Basically, if you want massive Great Smites, just raise Charisma. If you want more consistent divine damage that works on everything go with Epic Divine Might.

A 30 level Paladin with Extra Smiting can smite 9 times/day, though. They're not that few. And you still do less but still consistent damage with the simple Divine Might.

For example, if you take Great Smiting five times, you can do 30 x 5 = 150 damage on a single hit with just a simple Smite Evil.
Also a Paladin is a full BAB class. There are STR enhancing items and spells that make you an even better warrior with great saves plus a few tricks.

If you're going to make a Paladin with low or medium charisma, why bother making a Paladin at all? Crappier saves, crappy Smites, crappy Divine Might/Shield, crappy Turning, crappy party face.

Just make a Fighter/Divine Champion and you're set.

[dogeddie]

Alright then - we'll be jacking up the Charisma! It is a paladin trait anyway, right?

[I_Raps]

Your Paladin is going to want Tower Shield Proficiency.  Early.  I can't see any use for Practiced Spellcaster (even with the bug);  I think that Divine Might or Divine Shield* will do you much better;  Divine Resistance if you're a team player (be sure to take it early if you take it, because it tends to diminish in effectiveness later).  If you don't want to take Tumble, go with Spellcraft (+1 to saves vs. magic for every 5 ranks; "... but that's book larnin'" ... Know thy enemy, my son).
 

 
* Divine Shield is underrated.  I think it's more important in the grand scheme than Divine Might.  Think about it - if your 16+ level Paladin has to spend an extra round sucking down healing, that's four attacks that won't land, ca. 80 - 100 damage forfeited.  How much STR bonus or Divine Might damage would you need to make up for that?

 

 

p.s.  I do tend to favor the Luminus approach.  If you just want to be a fighter, be a Fighter.

 

p.p.s.  And if you do multi-class, one level of Fighter gets you Tower Shield plus another Feat and doesn't depress your AB.

[Arkalezth]

Well, it looks like ANOTHER of those paladin threads. Must be Monday. I won't go much into detail because it gets old after the 1000th time.

 

I can't see any use for Practiced Spellcaster (even with the bug)

The bug doesn't apply unless you take a PRC that advances spellcasting. I took it in my build because paladins have half caster level, so it increases it to 14 instead of 10.

As I said, you can take all those things for flavour, but if you're aiming for effectiveness, that's not the way to go. I'm not discussing what feels more paladin-ish, nor is that the point of the thread. I wish divine feats were better early on, and were instantly cast, and lasted longer, but I'm talking from a practical standpoint. They're perfectly viable, but just because you'll be fine without them as well. And yes, 9 attacks per day are few. Hell, you'll be attacking once per second by then, seven if hasted.

Paladins have spells too, by the way. A fighter/DC doesn't (and does less damage if the paladin uses the right spells), and a fighter/DC... well, that isn't a paladin, whereas a paladin without divine might is still a paladin. Following that logic, why bother with a fighter/DC when I can play a frenzied berserker/weapon master, and why play one of those when a cleric is a better fighter?

 

Me: "the most powerful LEVEL 20 paladin probably has 8 charisma."
Luminus: "Not necessarily. For EPIC Divine Might..."

 

I hope I don't need to explain what's wrong with that reply.

 

@dogeddie: If you want things like divine might, that's fine, but then I'd go with a bit more CHA than the build I linked, but don't neglect STR (I'd still focus on it primarily). The crappiest paladin ever will still be able to beat the OC, but while divine might and shield are viable pre-epic and good in epic, I really recommend against great smite. You'll still be able to use normal smite regardless, but you won't be gimping yourself in other areas.

[Luminus]

You're right, I didn't notice that you said 20 levels.

But not taking advantage of the Paladin's other abilities dependant on Charisma is basically making a Fighter with some spells.

It's like making a Ranger and making him STR based with a Greatsword and putting Full Plate on him (hi Minsc).
He can be effective but you're throwing many of his abilities down the drain (stealth, combat styles etc).

Sure, you get the spells with the Paladin... but that's the only advantage. Spell durations, variety and caster levels are still meh, though.

Also without Concentration, good luck recasting a spell after you're dispelled or it runs out.

[dogeddie]

Balls this gets confusing. Not a powergamer here.

[Arkalezth]

Sorry for that. Maybe something along these lines: http://nwn2db.com/build/?23180

 

That's a basic epic paladin, with divine shield and epic divine might, but not great smiting because great smiting is lame.

[Luminus]

Balls this gets confusing. Not a powergamer here.

Me neither, don't worry about it. Just raise Charisma and tank. Use spells and STR items but you want a starting STR of at least 16.

[I_Raps]

 

The bug doesn't apply unless you take a PRC that advances spellcasting. I took it [Practiced Spellcaster] in my build because paladins have half caster level, so it increases it to 14 instead of 10.
 

 

Yeah, Paladins have spells, but they should only be casting them before/after combat;  They're up front meleeing;  they're just not going to be casting in combat - wasting rounds, yes, casting spells, no - so they're not trying to beat anyone's Saving Throw.  And the spells they should bother with are buffs and restores, with Caster Level mattering only for duration - but even there, Paladin spell durations are almost all in minutes or hours;  an extra 4 aren't going to matter.  The only true benefit I can think of is Holy Sword - but are 4 extra rounds of Holy Sword worth a Feat?  I don't think so - ironically, ESPECIALLY for your build since he's going to be casting Extended Prayer or Extended Magic Circle/Prot instead.

[Arkalezth]

Yeah, paladins are buffers, I said that above myself. So what? I like longer durations, and some spells' power is dependent on caster level (though not many in this case, granted). You don't NEED practiced spellcaster, but it's a must for me on pretty much any caster, especially one with half caster levels. You don't need divine feats either. Also, you don't start at level 20, and 4 more minutes do matter by the time I take the feat.

 

What is kinda ironic is that you say that a bit more duration is not worth it and then assume that I'd be extending protection or circle against alignment. Why would I? Those are hour/level. I like long durations, but those spells last long enough without being extended. The main spell I'd be extending is Divine Favour. Extend also gives more room for maneouver with the spell book.

 

Also:

 

p.p.s.  And if you do multi-class, one level of Fighter gets you Tower Shield plus another Feat and doesn't depress your AB.

 

Tower shields do. I'm not saying they're not an option, but I'd stick to a heavy shield most of the time, especially if CHA-based.

 

Anyway, we're probably just confusing the OP even further. Let's just agree that we have different preferences when it comes to paladins. All these posts should give him enough material to worth with.

[Dann-J]

I've never played as a paladin, mostly because you're forced to be lawful good. Personally, I find Black Guards much more appealing.

[dogeddie]

This is the guide I,ve been using - credit ti DonJarlaxle on Gamefaqs
I changed the order of a couple things, but this is it.

IX. Single-class Paladin Example

Race: Aasimar

Starting Stats:

STR 16
DEX 10
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 14
CHA 18

Skills: Concentration, Diplomacy, Spellcraft (dip 4 ranks for Practiced
Spellcaster, cross-class skill)

Background: Devout

Level progression (all Paladin):

1) Luck of Heroes
2)
3) Blind-Fight
4) STR +1 (17)
5)
6) Power Attack
7)
8) STR +1 (18)
9) Practiced Spellcaster
10)
11)
12) Divine Might, STR +1 (19)
13)
14)
15) (Dealer's choice here. I'd recommend either Extend Spell, Divine Shield
    or Improved Critical: Longsword.)
16) STR +1 (20)
17)
18) (Dealer's choice here as well. Same recommendations as at 15.)
19)
20) STR +1 (21)
21) Great Charisma (CHA 19)
22) 
23) Great Charisma x2 (regular + bonus) (CHA 20, 21)
24) CHA +1 (22)
25) Epic Divine Might
26) Epic Prowess (bonus)
27) Toughness
28) STR +1 (22)
29) Epic Toughness, Epic Resilience (bonus)
30) 

Final stats (no gear/buffs):

STR 22
DEX 10
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 14
CHA 22

Saves (no gear/buffs): F 25, R 17, W 20

AB (w/ non-enchanted longsword, no buffs): 37/32/27/22/17/12

HP (no gear/buffs): 390

[Arkalezth]

It's decent for the OC/MOTB, except for the last three feats. Take more GSTRs or whatever, and extend and divine shield at 15 and 18.

[dogeddie]

What are GSTRs? What is wrong with the last 3 feats? Thanks for your help.

[Arkalezth]

Great Strength. They aren't exactly "wrong", but there are better things to take, as epic resilience is meh, and so are its requisites. Toughness is usually a filler feat: decent if you have room for it and nothing else to take, but not a priority. Besides, it's not an epic feat (as a rule of thumb, always try to take epic feats after level 20). Same goes for epic toughness. Steadfast determination achieves the same effect as epic resilience (only fort saves fail on a 1), it's cheaper and can be taken much earlier without wasting an epic feat slot. In this case I'd pass, though. Saves aren't even as good as the author seems to imply.

 

Check the level 30 build I linked on the previous page, if you haven't. It's very similar, but the epic feat selection is better IMO. Just adjust the race and attributes if you prefer an aasimar.

[dogeddie]

 

Check the level 30 build I linked on the previous page, if you haven't. It's very similar, but the epic feat selection is better IMO. Just adjust the race and attributes if you prefer an aasimar.

 

But aren't they almost all Great Charisma? Seems dull