946 réponses à ce sujet

[Mordokai]

I think that's more than a theory.

 

Some people won't believe it, so I'm happy to come across anything that reinforces it.

[Steelcan]

Some people won't believe it, so I'm happy to come across anything that reinforces it.

 

It's bull**** is what it is, you shouldn't be forced to be canon friends with anyone

[themikefest]

you can call  them canon friends , but femshep I play calls this T'soni's canon death

Spoiler

     

[General TSAR]

you can call  them canon friends , but femshep I play calls this T'soni's canon death

Spoiler

     

 

The dark blue goes well with the rubble. 

[Mordokai]

It's lovely to see the insecurity

[von uber]

you can call  them canon friends , but femshep I play calls this T'soni's canon death

Spoiler

     

 

Surely Traynor has the biggest plot armour of all those you can interact with? She is unkillable..

[KaiserShep]

Surely Traynor has the biggest plot armour of all those you can interact with? She is unkillable..

 

An organic in the Normandy SR2 is the safest being in the universe.

[Mordokai]

Surely Traynor has the biggest plot armour of all those you can interact with? She is unkillable..

 

Lets not forget Joker. I mean, we'll kill the protagonist sooner than the cripple!

[ImaginaryMatter]

Lets not forget Joker. I mean, we'll kill the protagonist sooner than the cripple!

 

I'm surprised he was able to walk out of the Normandy after that crash.

[themikefest]

Surely Traynor has the biggest plot armour of all those you can interact with? She is unkillable..

You can say that about Hackett, Joker, Adams and all the other organics in the galaxy that survive. And if your ems is low enough the door to the Normandy doesn't open leading to believe that all onboard died.

[KaiserShep]

You know Traynor's still standing there, typing on that holo-keyboard. She never exits the ship in any playthrough anyway.

[themikefest]

You know Traynor's still standing there, typing on that holo-keyboard. She never exits the ship in any playthrough anyway.

She does in mine except when my ems is too low

[DuskWanderer]

Last time, I promise.

Just talk to him on Sur'Kesh without Liara in the squad (she speaks for herself if present as Wolf transcribed). Ask if the Krogan are ready to fight. Paragon, renegade, romanced or not, doesn't matter - Shepard is offended on her behalf in her absence.

 

Wow. Just wow. Even if I completely ignore her, I still have to pretend that blue waifu is my friend.

 

In regards to the "Women have good ideas", I disliked the implication too. It should have been "Women CAN have good ideas". Good ideas and bad ideas are not gender-dependent.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

This is a thing about computer RPGs. There is a story, and your player character has a role in it. You get to play within the confines of the story. The more diverging points there are in the story, the more diverging results there are later on that have to be accounted for, and the more diverging choices that have to be made. 

 

With Liara they made her the canon friend. And she was the canon friend because she was one of two who couldn't die in ME2. The other being the Virmire Survivor. That's it. So who otherwise it the canon friend? Would you rather have the VS forced on you? Well, they had a confrontation where the VS could die if you wanted to be the real ass, so that left Liara. Unfortunately for the VS all the good armor was Cerberus. Weird huh?

 

Then to not make Traynor the Kelly v. 2.0, they took Liara's lines and gave them to her. This was a compromise which goes to show that in trying to pleasing everyone you end up pleasing no one. They should have left Liara with all of the lines, made her the competent Shadow Broker she should have been and had Traynor have another purpose. Like maybe had the galaxy map fritz out and have her crawling around underneath fixing it. That would have given her as much purpose as Cortez.

[Mordokai]

Then to not make Traynor the Kelly v. 2.0, they took Liara's lines and gave them to her. This was a compromise which goes to show that in trying to pleasing everyone you end up pleasing no one. They should have left Liara with all of the lines, made her the competent Shadow Broker she should have been and had Traynor have another purpose. Like maybe had the galaxy map fritz out and have her crawling around underneath fixing it. That would have given her as much purpose as Cortez.

 

The thing is, Normandy can't afford to have a competent Shadow Broker, since that equals "I win" button that can be pressed infinitely. And that would break the game at seams. No Cerberus coup, knowing about Eve from the beginning... the list goes on. We would also be seeing much more of Liara and people are already complaining about those two visits to Shepard's cabin. Imagine what would happen if she had bigger role? BSN would implode from all the hate.

 

So, they butchered her character growth because they couldn't afford her to be competent, because it would show how incompetent they were. Sadly, some people can't seem to figure out that for themselves and get angry at you when you point it at them.

 

Just goes to show you how badly underdeveloped this game was.

 

By the way, congratulations for being able to think with your own head. Something rarely seen these days.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The thing is, Normandy can't afford to have a competent Shadow Broker, since that equals "I win" button that can be pressed infinitely. And that would break the game at seams. No Cerberus coup, knowing about Eve from the beginning... the list goes on. We would also be seeing much more of Liara and people are already complaining about those two visits to Shepard's cabin. Imagine what would happen if she had bigger role? BSN would implode from all the hate.

 

So, they butchered her character growth because they couldn't afford her to be competent, because it would show how incompetent they were. Sadly, some people can't seem to figure out that for themselves and get angry at you when you point it at them.

 

Just goes to show you how badly underdeveloped this game was.

 

By the way, congratulations for being able to think with your own head. Something rarely seen these days.

 

I look at the story from the viewpoint of a writer these days. I wasn't talking about an infinite "I win" button. What I was talking about was the lines regarding the Cerberus scientists, Grissom, the location of Kai Leng, that were taken from Liara and given to Traynor. In ME2 Liara had made the transition from nerdy scientist to the pragmatic anti-hero sidekick in LotSB. She became the Shadow Broker. Then she decided to use the Shadow Brokers resources to help Shepard fight the Reapers. She started out ME3 that way as well. Then it all went to hell. An anti-hero isn't necessarily evil. They just aren't as sparkly clean as the knight in shining armor. Raylan Givens of Justified is an anti-hero of sorts, not as much as some of the others, but he's morally grey enough to be one.

 

Cerberus had infiltrated C-sec. That was obvious. They got agents planted after the Battle of the Citadel when C-sec recruited a lot of humans. The coup was an inside job. Had to be. Udina was defacto Prime Minister of the Systems Alliance... err rather dictator. He wanted to seize power of the Citadel for Earth for some crazy reason. The problem with it was that they never showed a foreshadowing or motive for that drastic an action. How would doing that have helped the war effort? What was the grand plan? Without the information dump from the villain (Udina) we have no clue -- they didn't give one and it would have been very bad writing if they had.

 

Now contrary to the views of other parties on this site I think you can have an intelligent protagonist, and a more competent side for the protagonist. The Reapers were overpowered enough. So much so it wouldn't have mattered. Someone here would say doing that would be bad writing, because a few victories giving hope would be a terrible idea. Hopelessness and sacrifice are the only way that leads to heroism, according to some. 

 

The writing in the story going back through ME1 was pretty bad. The plot was full of holes. And in ME3 we pay for it with even worse writing. What we liked about the story was the characters, not the plot.

[Jukaga]

It's bull**** is what it is, you shouldn't be forced to be canon friends with anyone

*cough* Garrus

 

super-bro no matter what

[Iakus]

It's bull**** is what it is, you shouldn't be forced to be canon friends with anyone

 

I think it's pretty clear that while this may have been "Shepard's Story"  it certainly isn't our Shepard's Story.

 

However it was marketed.

[CrutchCricket]

The thing is, Normandy can't afford to have a competent Shadow Broker, since that equals "I win" button that can be pressed infinitely. And that would break the game at seams. No Cerberus coup, knowing about Eve from the beginning... the list goes on. We would also be seeing much more of Liara and people are already complaining about those two visits to Shepard's cabin. Imagine what would happen if she had bigger role? BSN would implode from all the hate.

 

So, they butchered her character growth because they couldn't afford her to be competent, because it would show how incompetent they were. Sadly, some people can't seem to figure out that for themselves and get angry at you when you point it at them.

 

Just goes to show you how badly underdeveloped this game was.

 

By the way, congratulations for being able to think with your own head. Something rarely seen these days.

 

Not at all. First off, Liara as the full-on Shadow Broker wouldn't be a squadmate. She'd be a questgiver like Hackett.

 

Secondly that doesn't necessarily imply a bigger role.

 

And finally, even the Shadow Broker is not infallible. It's not inconceivable that the salarians or TIM could keep some things from her.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Not at all. First off, Liara as the full-on Shadow Broker wouldn't be a squadmate. She'd be a questgiver like Hackett.

 

Secondly that doesn't necessarily imply a bigger role.

 

And finally, even the Shadow Broker is not infallible. It's not inconceivable that the salarians or TIM could keep some things from her.

 

I see her more as a quest giver than a squadmate. This actually means more "intrusion."  But she's still a potential LI. Now the Miranda crowd is about to scream, but read on.

 

The quests for Grissom, the scientists (Jacob), and Sanctuary (Kai Leng & Oriana - if Miranda is recruited) should have come from Liara. 

 

I still see Liara mandatory on two missions: "From Ashes" because she's the Prothean expert, and Thessia because of the Temple having Prothean stuff. Not on Palaven. Bioware should have had a marine engineer for that mission along with James. The engineer can pull a Jenkins when you get Garrus. But this leaves you without a biotic. That's why they had Liara as a squadmate. They should have allowed you to recruit either Miranda or Jack. If you recruit Jack the students go with Sanders, and you don't get to recruit Miranda. If you recruit Miranda you don't get to recruit Jack. Better than recruiting Allers. If you have Miranda as a squadmate she's mandatory for Sanctuary.

 

Have you settled down yet? I thought so.

[Mordokai]

I look at the story from the viewpoint of a writer these days. I wasn't talking about an infinite "I win" button. What I was talking about was the lines regarding the Cerberus scientists, Grissom, the location of Kai Leng, that were taken from Liara and given to Traynor. In ME2 Liara had made the transition from nerdy scientist to the pragmatic anti-hero sidekick in LotSB. She became the Shadow Broker. Then she decided to use the Shadow Brokers resources to help Shepard fight the Reapers. She started out ME3 that way as well. Then it all went to hell. An anti-hero isn't necessarily evil. They just aren't as sparkly clean as the knight in shining armor. Raylan Givens of Justified is an anti-hero of sorts, not as much as some of the others, but he's morally grey enough to be one.

 

Cerberus had infiltrated C-sec. That was obvious. They got agents planted after the Battle of the Citadel when C-sec recruited a lot of humans. The coup was an inside job. Had to be. Udina was defacto Prime Minister of the Systems Alliance... err rather dictator. He wanted to seize power of the Citadel for Earth for some crazy reason. The problem with it was that they never showed a foreshadowing or motive for that drastic an action. How would doing that have helped the war effort? What was the grand plan? Without the information dump from the villain (Udina) we have no clue -- they didn't give one and it would have been very bad writing if they had.

 

Now contrary to the views of other parties on this site I think you can have an intelligent protagonist, and a more competent side for the protagonist. The Reapers were overpowered enough. So much so it wouldn't have mattered. Someone here would say doing that would be bad writing, because a few victories giving hope would be a terrible idea. Hopelessness and sacrifice are the only way that leads to heroism, according to some. 

 

The writing in the story going back through ME1 was pretty bad. The plot was full of holes. And in ME3 we pay for it with even worse writing. What we liked about the story was the characters, not the plot.

 

I'm with you on this. It really made no sense for Traynor to be ultra competent... to be better Shadow Broker than Shadow Broker herself. It would be really great if Bioware came up with a middle road... make one acquire the data and have the other analyze it and pull some deductions out of it. Two flies with one strike.

 

However, some people are quick to point out that Liara didn't know any of the "important" stuff... Udina planning a coup, krogan females on Sur'Kesh, Leviathan, TIM's base, beacon on Thessia... most of the time, they forget that she's operating on Lite mode, seeing her network is limited, the number of her agents are dwindling by the day and most of her time is invested into finding help for Crucible, which is the single biggest investment in this cycle and where she actually does a lot of work, even if much less of it is tangible in the way player can see it.

 

Those are the same people who will happily complain how "forced" Liara has been on us. Who would rip Bioware a new one if they gave Liara any bigger role. It's quite amusing actually... and a little sad at the same time.

 

Not at all. First off, Liara as the full-on Shadow Broker wouldn't be a squadmate. She'd be a questgiver like Hackett.

 

Secondly that doesn't necessarily imply a bigger role.

 

And finally, even the Shadow Broker is not infallible. It's not inconceivable that the salarians or TIM could keep some things from her.

 

I'm not asking for her to be infallible. In fact, I think the game does a pretty good job at showing that she is fallible. And I'm actually pleased with that, since it makes sense. She's been at the whole Shadow Brokering business for all together half a year. She has been one of the most successful info brokers back on Illium, but compared to leading a Shadow Broker network, that's strictly small league. And she is what, twenty years old human equivalent? In short, I imagine the work is overwhelming for her and she actually alludes to it thorough the game. So I actually think that what so many take for a badly written character is in fact a good written character. She is fallible and the war and her own network are taking a toll on her. And it makes her more humane... you know, insofar that the term can be applied to asari.

 

But as Julia mentioned, she has been shafted in one part where she wasn't supposed to be. I wouldn't mind seeing her being just a tad more competent, even if she was working with Traynor for that effect. As it is, we have a Shadow Broker that looks more incompetent than she really is and a regular Alliance comm officer that's vastly more competent than she has any right to be, given the circumstances. It's bad character development for two characters and it's just sad to see.

 

And TIM did have something on her. If you read Homeworlds, Liara's issues, you'll notice TIM actually has bugs in Shadow Broker's ship. He has been spying on her since the day she took the mantle of SB, or at least one would assume as much. It doesn't make any sense, but there you go.

 

And you're right, a full-blown Shadow Broker would be more of a war asset than a squadmate. Her network would be worth somewhere between 300 and 500 points of war assets.

 

Cue complaining how Liara is forced on us... again.

[themikefest]

T'soni is not a prothean expert as we learn on Thessia and I guess you add Therum to that as well. After Hackett tells us that the Crucible isn't of Prothean design it made T'soni useless even before ME3. She is not needed for the from ashes dlc since Shepard is the one with the cipher and T'soni adds nothing to the dlc. She would've served a better purpose being with Hackett instead of being in Miranda's office. And if your complaining that she should've had what Sam has, then lets put in the T'soni-VS decision.

 

With Samantha. That is her job communications and she does it very well. That's what she was trained for. She doesn't have to pretend to be something she's not. 

[von uber]

T'Soni is a Prothean expert up until Thessia, and she is recognised by the Galaxy as being so (logs on Mars for example), based on the current knowledge of the time. To say she isn't because she was wrong about how the Asari were uplifted is just plain stupid.

[themikefest]

Who said anything about how the asari were uplifted?

[Mordokai]

T'soni is not a prothean expert as we learn on Thessia and I guess you add Therum to that as well. After Hackett tells us that the Crucible isn't of Prothean design it made T'soni useless even before ME3. She is not needed for the from ashes dlc since Shepard is the one with the cipher and T'soni adds nothing to the dlc. She would've served a better purpose being with Hackett instead of being in Miranda's office. And if your complaining that she should've had what Sam has, then lets put in the T'soni-VS decision.

 

With Samantha. That is her job communications and she does it very well. That's what she was trained for. She doesn't have to pretend to be something she's not. 

 

Much like you can come up with circumstantial evidence why Liara sucks, so can I pull excuses why Traynor sucks as a character from my ass.

 

See how funny that is?