946 réponses à ce sujet

[ImaginaryMatter]

Well this isn't going to end well.

[themikefest]

Much like you can come up with circumstantial evidence why Liara sucks, so can I pull excuses why Traynor sucks as a character from my ass.

 

See how funny that is?

Your going to have to do a better job than that to hurt my feelings.

[von uber]

Who said anything about how the asari were uplifted?

You mention her not being an expert in relation to thessia, which is where we learnt the protheans uplifted them.
How this suddenly doesn't make her an expert is an interesting question. Unless not knowing one thing in a massive field of study suddenly prevents you from being an expert.

[CrutchCricket]

I see her more as a quest giver than a squadmate. This actually means more "intrusion."  But she's still a potential LI. Now the Miranda crowd is about to scream, but read on.
 
The quests for Grissom, the scientists (Jacob), and Sanctuary (Kai Leng & Oriana - if Miranda is recruited) should have come from Liara. 
 
I still see Liara mandatory on two missions: "From Ashes" because she's the Prothean expert, and Thessia because of the Temple having Prothean stuff. Not on Palaven. Bioware should have had a marine engineer for that mission along with James. The engineer can pull a Jenkins when you get Garrus. But this leaves you without a biotic. That's why they had Liara as a squadmate. They should have allowed you to recruit either Miranda or Jack. If you recruit Jack the students go with Sanders, and you don't get to recruit Miranda. If you recruit Miranda you don't get to recruit Jack. Better than recruiting Allers. If you have Miranda as a squadmate she's mandatory for Sanctuary.
 
Have you settled down yet? I thought so.

 
How would that mean more intrusion? Does Hackett intrude? Even if she's still on the Normandy as a questgiver, intrusion is an entirely separate issue. There is no mission as currently written that requires Liara barging in going "Shepard, get off the can we've gotta go to [insert planet here]!"
 
You could give her those missions, but in the case of the last two she can say she got them from Miranda. While there might conceivably be clues to them in her feeds, her data streams are supposed to be massive. Nothing wrong with other people tipping her off. Especially when she's just looking for anything that might be useful, while someone like Miranda is focused on searching for just one specific thing.
 
And speaking as a Miranda fan, I'm not sure what you thought was so inflammatory. I don't know why Miranda should be at Grissom but I'm not gonna say no to any scenario where she's on the squad.
 

I'm with you on this. It really made no sense for Traynor to be ultra competent... to be better Shadow Broker than Shadow Broker herself. It would be really great if Bioware came up with a middle road... make one acquire the data and have the other analyze it and pull some deductions out of it. Two flies with one strike.
 
However, some people are quick to point out that Liara didn't know any of the "important" stuff... Udina planning a coup, krogan females on Sur'Kesh, Leviathan, TIM's base, beacon on Thessia... most of the time, they forget that she's operating on Lite mode, seeing her network is limited, the number of her agents are dwindling by the day and most of her time is invested into finding help for Crucible, which is the single biggest investment in this cycle and where she actually does a lot of work, even if much less of it is tangible in the way player can see it.
 
Those are the same people who will happily complain how "forced" Liara has been on us. Who would rip Bioware a new one if they gave Liara any bigger role. It's quite amusing actually... and a little sad at the same time.

 
The thing is Liara's network being diminished and her working for the Crucible may be stated once or twice but it's not emphasized a whole lot. And as I much as I deride Bioware's lack of subtlety, maybe the sledgehammer approach really is the way to go with some people. But as it is, the argument becomes "Liara's forced on us, and all her supposed benefits aren't even there". Missing the point, but there it is.
 
ME3 is a study in quantity vs quality and proof that the former does not equal the latter. Even if a character has "sufficient" screentime (assuming we could agree on what that quantity is) the quality almost never matches. Their role is unfocused. Liara is an example. Miranda is one as well. People always say Miranda got the most screentime of any ME2 squadmates. But what did they do with it? Absolutely nothing. Zero character development, zero significance to the plot (apart from a very coincidental one). We went ballistic. Liara, for all her vaunted screentime and "forced" significance gets a bit of the same brush. Yes, she has relevance to the plot, yes she has some character arc. But it too feels unfocused and kind of just floating in the breeze. She finds the Crucible plans. But how? Crawling through a goddamn vent, being chased by the lowliest mooks. What's her character development? I'm having trouble even coming up with something- maybe her reaction and eventual acceptance of what she learns on Thessia? I don't know. And this is despite her omgforced status. Which let's be honest is never going to go away. But that's shouldn't be an excuse to not tighten her role. And as we've discussed, that does not mean simply giving her more.
 

I'm not asking for her to be infallible. In fact, I think the game does a pretty good job at showing that she is fallible. And I'm actually pleased with that, since it makes sense. She's been at the whole Shadow Brokering business for all together half a year. She has been one of the most successful info brokers back on Illium, but compared to leading a Shadow Broker network, that's strictly small league. And she is what, twenty years old human equivalent? In short, I imagine the work is overwhelming for her and she actually alludes to it thorough the game. So I actually think that what so many take for a badly written character is in fact a good written character. She is fallible and the war and her own network are taking a toll on her. And it makes her more humane... you know, insofar that the term can be applied to asari.
 
But as Julia mentioned, she has been shafted in one part where she wasn't supposed to be. I wouldn't mind seeing her being just a tad more competent, even if she was working with Traynor for that effect. As it is, we have a Shadow Broker that looks more incompetent than she really is and a regular Alliance comm officer that's vastly more competent than she has any right to be, given the circumstances. It's bad character development for two characters and it's just sad to see.
 
And TIM did have something on her. If you read Homeworlds, Liara's issues, you'll notice TIM actually has bugs in Shadow Broker's ship. He has been spying on her since the day she took the mantle of SB, or at least one would assume as much. It doesn't make any sense, but there you go.
 
And you're right, a full-blown Shadow Broker would be more of a war asset than a squadmate. Her network would be worth somewhere between 300 and 500 points of war assets.
 
Cue complaining how Liara is forced on us... again.

I don't find Traynor magically better than she should be. The explanations for for how she got what she got are very plausible. And as I mentioned above the data feeds are still supposed to be huge. It's not unlikely that Liara simply missed the relevant communication bits needed to piece together the intel that led to a mission. I agree the two of them working together would probably be enough cover complaints from both sides.

[CrutchCricket]

T'soni is not a prothean expert as we learn on Thessia and I guess you add Therum to that as well. After Hackett tells us that the Crucible isn't of Prothean design it made T'soni useless even before ME3. She is not needed for the from ashes dlc since Shepard is the one with the cipher and T'soni adds nothing to the dlc. She would've served a better purpose being with Hackett instead of being in Miranda's office. And if your complaining that she should've had what Sam has, then lets put in the T'soni-VS decision.

 

With Samantha. That is her job communications and she does it very well. That's what she was trained for. She doesn't have to pretend to be something she's not. 

 

Hundreds of years ago experts walked the Earth thinking it was round. Around 60 years ago experts were sure you couldn't split the atom. And up until, what was it, five or six years ago experts considered Pluto a planet.

 

Whoops.

 

As always you can attack the problem from two ends. "Liara isn't needed on x, she doesn't add anything" or "Liara should have something on x, why doesn't she?" The difference is perspective, which is influenced by bias. And Liara does have something in From Ashes she tells you about the pod and what info you need to get it open. Sure Shepard could've stumbled on it on his own and used the cipher to figure out what it means. But surely you see how an expert telling you what to look for is more efficient.

 

Even if you think that's not enough, she is touted as the Prothean expert and we have something Prothean here. I for one expect her to have something. Hence the second way of looking at it.

[themikefest]

 

 

. And Liara does have something in From Ashes she tells you about the pod and what info you need to get it open. .

 

 

Couldn't edi do the same. Have her mention something. about the pod and what's needed for it to open. She wasn't needed as a squadmate in ME2 and was able to do things and tell us about stuff

[Zazzerka]

EDI could've done the same. EDI didn't. Liara did. Suck it up.

[CrutchCricket]

I don't see how EDI could. She's an AI but is she programmed with Prothean data? Can she directly interface with their tech?

 

I guess she'd be the best substitute if we needed one (i.e. if Liara could die).

 

On a more humorous note I could see her looking it up on the extranet. Cue wikipedia jokes.

[Zazzerka]

Opening a prothean stasis pod is a difficult undertaking. [1] First, raise your wrist. [2] Second, activate the orange lights. [3] Third, fiddle around with the lights and try to look like you know what you're doing. [citation needed]

[SporkFu]

The trouble with being labeled a prothean expert is that we learn from the ME1 onwards that relatively speaking, the protheans never left much of anything about themselves behind, not for a galaxy spanning empire. How much could anyone be a prothean expert?

[DeinonSlayer]

The trouble with being labeled a prothean expert is that we learn from the ME1 onwards that relatively speaking, the protheans never left much of anything about themselves behind, not for a galaxy spanning empire. How much could anyone be a prothean expert?

Need to make a picture of Liara posed like this guy:

...simply subtitled "Protheans..."

[Mordokai]

Your going to have to do a better job than that to hurt my feelings.

 

Who said anything about hurting your feelings?

 

The thing is Liara's network being diminished and her working for the Crucible may be stated once or twice but it's not emphasized a whole lot. And as I much as I deride Bioware's lack of subtlety, maybe the sledgehammer approach really is the way to go with some people. But as it is, the argument becomes "Liara's forced on us, and all her supposed benefits aren't even there". Missing the point, but there it is.
 
ME3 is a study in quantity vs quality and proof that the former does not equal the latter. Even if a character has "sufficient" screentime (assuming we could agree on what that quantity is) the quality almost never matches. Their role is unfocused. Liara is an example. Miranda is one as well. People always say Miranda got the most screentime of any ME2 squadmates. But what did they do with it? Absolutely nothing. Zero character development, zero significance to the plot (apart from a very coincidental one). We went ballistic. Liara, for all her vaunted screentime and "forced" significance gets a bit of the same brush. Yes, she has relevance to the plot, yes she has some character arc. But it too feels unfocused and kind of just floating in the breeze. She finds the Crucible plans. But how? Crawling through a goddamn vent, being chased by the lowliest mooks. What's her character development? I'm having trouble even coming up with something- maybe her reaction and eventual acceptance of what she learns on Thessia? I don't know. And this is despite her omgforced status. Which let's be honest is never going to go away. But that's shouldn't be an excuse to not tighten her role. And as we've discussed, that does not mean simply giving her more.

 

I'll admit, I have some difficulties discerning whether you agree or disagree with me. I think it's the former, but let me know if I'm wrong.

 

Yes, I agree with you, they could have done a lot more with her and it's a shame they didn't. That's why I have fanfiction to fill in the blanks... my own and that of other very talented writers. But, as you pointed out yourself, a lot of characters suffered from that, Liara and Miranda not being the only ones. I still like characters plenty. Well, most of them. But yeah, they could have made them so much more real and fleshed out.

 

I don't find Traynor magically better than she should be. The explanations for for how she got what she got are very plausible. And as I mentioned above the data feeds are still supposed to be huge. It's not unlikely that Liara simply missed the relevant communication bits needed to piece together the intel that led to a mission. I agree the two of them working together would probably be enough cover complaints from both sides.

 

I disagree with you, but won't go into details, since it would likely look I'm flame baiting and I don't want this topic to be locked because of it. But, if you'd like to, I'd very much welcome further discussion. Perhaps via PM?

 

Need to make a picture of Liara posed like this guy:

...simply subtitled "Protheans..."

 

 

There you go!

[DeinonSlayer]

There you go!

Excellent.

Another variant:

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

@ CrutchCricket - who said anything about Miranda being at Grissom. You meet her on the Citadel and you can recruit her there. If you've got Jack already recruited it's in your dialogue and you can't recruit her until she's been let go. You can contact Miranda again in the Spectre Armory. Regarding Jack, if you already got Miranda recruited and you want to recruit Jack she'll meet you in Purgatory after you've dismissed Miranda. This doesn't cause either one of them to die. Dismissing Jack will cause her to go back to work with Sanders, and dismissing Miranda will just make her work on finding her sister. I just thought it would be a nice to have thing for people. Of the two I wanted Jack on my squad just because I like Jack.

 

@ themikefest - the writers took the dumb road on Thessia. Anyone with half a f***ing brain could have figured out that the Temple was Prothean. Even Ashley figured it out. It outranks "You mean Asari can reproduce with their own species" in stupid writing. I give Liara's writer a "F" on that scene and I give Mac Walters a big "F" on that scene. It is the epitome of the "Good is Dumb" trope.

 

Shall we also not forget that she goes stupid about recognizing Protheans even with a Prothean standing there? This is part of the entire scheme of reducing the intelligence of the cast below that of Commander Shepard whose IQ is pretty damned low to begin with. They made the Council dumber than a bunch of chimpanzees and the admirals dumber than a screen door on a submarine. But wait, Shepard is in the Temple. The thoats of the scientists have been slit. Who could have done that? Who have we seen use blades? Who could have gotten past military grade encryption and locked it from the inside just to make sure no one knows he's in there waiting for Commander Shepard to show up? Someone has been there before them.

 

But Shepard just says, "I guess these are the scientists." There is no concern about anyone else even possibly being inside the temple. How did those scientists get their throats slit? Did Athame do it? Did they slit their own throats? Well the last part is obviously no, because there aren't two blades near the bodies. So this would indicate to anyone with a lick of sense that someone else is in the temple, but not Commander Shepard, because Shepard is a dumb ass. And apparently neither Liara nor whoever else was with them caught that someone else was in the temple either includiing our genius AI EDI, because they have to be dumber than our Commander. Damn this is hilariously bad writing. It doesn't make a lick of common sense.

 

The conclusion of this is that everyone of your squadmates and the rest of the cast members is so dumb because they have to make Commander Shepard look like a bloody genius. God help us all. 

 

My guess is that they write at 5th grade level for these things because this is 'Murica. I wish they'd up the ante a bit and maybe write at least at 9th grade level, because having characters go incredibly stupid doesn't cut it.

[KaiserShep]

Speaking of protheans, am I the only one that's kind of disappointed that the actual species name of Javik isn't something other than prothean? The word always struck me as a term to denote a past civilization that left little but their paleotechnology.

[DeinonSlayer]

Speaking of protheans, am I the only one that's kind of disappointed that the actual species name of Javik isn't something other than prothean? The word always struck me as a term to denote a past civilization that left little but their paleotechnology.

I liked what they originally had planned: Shepard could understand Javik perfectly because of the Cipher, but nobody else could, and Liara could speak Prothean on an "I... You... Friend" level.

Don't get me wrong, Javik's squad banter is hilarious... maybe the squad could have one-by-one received the Cipher to facilitate communication.

[CrutchCricket]

I'll admit, I have some difficulties discerning whether you agree or disagree with me. I think it's the former, but let me know if I'm wrong.

 

Yes, I agree with you, they could have done a lot more with her and it's a shame they didn't. That's why I have fanfiction to fill in the blanks... my own and that of other very talented writers. But, as you pointed out yourself, a lot of characters suffered from that, Liara and Miranda not being the only ones. I still like characters plenty. Well, most of them. But yeah, they could have made them so much more real and fleshed out.

 

 

I disagree with you, but won't go into details, since it would likely look I'm flame baiting and I don't want this topic to be locked because of it. But, if you'd like to, I'd very much welcome further discussion. Perhaps via PM?

 

The only thing I was disagreeing with was letting the omgforced hate prevent the honing of Liara's character development or of letting it cloud the issue that her role could be improved still.

 

And yeah if you want to take something to PMs by all means.

 

@ CrutchCricket - who said anything about Miranda being at Grissom. You meet her on the Citadel and you can recruit her there.

 

I understood that wrong then. I have no issues with your scenario.

 

Speaking of protheans, am I the only one that's kind of disappointed that the actual species name of Javik isn't something other than prothean? The word always struck me as a term to denote a past civilization that left little but their paleotechnology.

 

Yeah... although we could interpret it as Javik just speaking our language and using the word we know. We pretty much have to do that for the rest of them anyway, what with the universal translators and all.

[CrutchCricket]

I liked what they originally had planned: Shepard could understand Javik perfectly because of the Cipher, but nobody else could, and Liara could speak Prothean on an "I... You... Friend" level.

Don't get me wrong, Javik's squad banter is hilarious... maybe the squad could have one-by-one received the Cipher to facilitate communication.

 

That would've been interesting. I like what we got as well though. An interesting technicality though- Javik learns language from Shepard but that would only make him understand humans. Other races understand each other through translator chips. So did he pick up the rest from Shepard's chip? Or should he have touched Liara, Garrus and any other species to learn their languages as well?

[DeinonSlayer]

That would've been interesting. I like what we got as well though. An interesting technicality though- Javik learns language from Shepard but that would only make him understand humans. Other races understand each other through translator chips. So did he pick up the rest from Shepard's chip? Or should he have touched Liara, Garrus and any other species to learn their languages as well?

A codex entry in BDtS says there's a simplified Trade tongue used by just about every species capable of verbal communication. Automatic translators are used when a topic is too complex to discuss in Trade (or when you're talking to a Hanar - I guess Shepard's omnitool turns into a light show). So if Javik was speaking English at any point (assuming most of what he says is in Trade), it would be translated from English to whatever language anyone else needed to hear it in. We never hear him speak Greieieieie'p again after he first wakes up.

I guess that means Shepard isn't actually speaking English whenever he's talking to an alien squadmate.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

That would've been interesting. I like what we got as well though. An interesting technicality though- Javik learns language from Shepard but that would only make him understand humans. Other races understand each other through translator chips. So did he pick up the rest from Shepard's chip? Or should he have touched Liara, Garrus and any other species to learn their languages as well?

 

No. I wouldn't go that way. Shepard would know Prothean, but I'm not going to go all Matrixy with Javik being able to learn a language by touch. Javik would have to get an implant. Dr. Chakwas can take care of that. Shepard could communicate that to him in Prothean. Javik still should not be able to speak English and we should not be able to understand Javik except via subtitles until he gets the chip which would be the first thing to happen after he agrees to help us fight the reapers.

[CrutchCricket]

I don't mind the Prothean learn by touch ability. I think it's a little much to go full-on technobabble and attempt to explain it in pseudoscience. Just let them be psychic and be done with it.

 

If you're gonna have it though, use it more. Javik should've become the most valuable squadmate based on that alone. Swing by the Council office with him in tow:

 

"Commander, I sense duplicity from this Udina primitive! He's working with Cerberus!"

 

*headshot!*

 

I realize it'd break gameplay and the story. But, ah the fun we could have...

[DeinonSlayer]

I don't mind the Prothean learn by touch ability. I think it's a little much to go full-on technobabble and attempt to explain it in pseudoscience. Just let them be psychic and be done with it.

 

If you're gonna have it though, use it more. Javik should've become the most valuable squadmate based on that alone. Swing by the Council office with him in tow:

 

"Commander, I sense duplicity from this Udina primitive! He's working with Cerberus!"

 

*headshot!*

 

I realize it'd break gameplay and the story. But, ah the fun we could have...

The Rachni are telepaths. There's a pretty popular fanfic (Razor's Edge: Requiem) written by a fellow BSN'er where they were the ones who derailed the Cerberus coup and outed Udina as the traitor.

[DeinonSlayer]

"Commanda, I sense that this Maya primitive is a traitor! She's one of the people behind your identity theft!"

 

This is one of the only two things I hated about the Citadel DLC.

Well, in the beginning at the restaurant, we see her get shot and she's immediately talking to us again, without having been taken into custody by the mercs surrounding her. Ignoring all tropes, that alone would have been evidence enough of her complicity.

 

What was the other thing?