946 réponses à ce sujet

[themikefest]

You could always have an Asari commando that you meet on the Citadel after talking with the council that wants to join Shepard in helping stop the reapers. Something similiar to letting Garrus/Wrex on the ship in ME1.

[KaiserShep]

Sure, they could do that, but it seems to me that the more sensible alternative would simply be to not have the VS be incapacitated by Eva Core in the prologue, so that no matter what, you have an extra companion available, and at least this one would be a familiar face that's existed since ME1.

[von uber]

Aria would be a great substitute; especially as a love interest for a renegade femshep.

[CrutchCricket]

A substitute for Liara could be Vasir. if we could've had her join us  instead of killing her or at least have that option. Samara or Jack. I know both could be dead in ME2. Shiala could join us, of cousre she could be dead as well.

 
**** no. Vasir belongs in hell having her face ventilated beyond recognition over and over again.
 
Possible adept replacements for Liara, filtered for no death conditions (even though that shouldn't and wouldn't matter):
-Aria
-Aethyta
-Kolyat (bonus drama with Thane)
-The cop from Samara's recruitment
-Javik (make him free again, he's on disk as it is)
-Rila/Falere (the one that survives)
-New character
 
 

In the end, a backup facility doesn't mean much if the Shadow Broker himself is dead. Let's say, in this scenario, that Liara did have Shepard simply have the ship on Hagalaz bombed from orbit, just to be sure. What then? I'm loath to use the phrase "because plot", but I think that would apply here. In this story, it would be more than likely that if there were backup facilities, we'd simply know the locations of the backups, because of Cerberus' intel, or the intel we gathered for Liara on Illium. We'd just pick off the Shadow Broker bases one at a time throughout the galaxy, but that's not as interesting as actually encountering the Broker himself. In this case, also, the Shadow Broker's resources would simply be inconsequential to the overarching plot of the trilogy, since it would be disposed of.

 

Well no. In the case of ship to ship attack the Broker would have an escape plan. If he's entirely selfish he will not just go "welp they found me, guess it's all over." He'd try to fight, but more importantly he'd have a way out. And afterwards he wouldn't count on having a friendly warship he can just dump some of his computers on and work at suboptimal capacity.

 

There must be other facilities. And there's no reason to assume we'd just know about them. Facilities specifically meant for backup would be dark and buried. The whole point is to not find them so the network survives.

[KaiserShep]

It's funny, because as little as I would approve of having Aria on the ship, she is the only viable alternative, and it would be surprisingly easy to leave her with no place else to go. Like, if the reapers simply bumrushed Omega and obliterated it, and she's reduced to refugee status.

 

 

Well no. In the case of ship to ship attack the Broker would have an escape plan. If he's entirely selfish he will not just go "welp they found me, guess it's all over." He'd try to fight, but more importantly he'd have a way out. And afterwards he wouldn't count on having a friendly warship he can just dump some of his computers on and work at suboptimal capacity.

 

There must be other facilities. And there's no reason to assume we'd just know about them. Facilities specifically meant for backup would be dark and buried. The whole point is to not find them so the network survives.

 

As I said, "because plot". The plot demands that we find the Shadow Broker and kill him. That's the entire point of the DLC. If we entered the base on Hagalaz, and a henchman says "Sorry, the Broker is in another castle", then that means we'll just have to track down these backup facilities somehow. It doesn't matter how many bases there are and how many escape routes he has; we're here to kill him, so that's what has to happen, unless you're suggesting that the DLC should simply end in failure, but then that defeats the purpose of playing this game in the first place.

 

In any case, it's hinted at that Liara already found other bases.

[SporkFu]

No there definitely should be a backup base, or several. An entire information empire playing every major power in the galaxy against each other for the benefit of one individual and he doesn't think to preserve it beyond "durr I hope no one scans this planet!" or worse the admittedly unlikely possibility of actually getting tracked down? What would've happened if Liara didn't care about Feron and just wanted revenge, and instead of an on-foot infiltration she just had Shepard Thanix the **** out of that ship? Bye-bye Shadow Broker? Without any sort of backup and recovery?

 

Please.

You realize I was referring to Liara's comments about infiltrating another of the broker's bases, and not whether he should have one, right?

[CrutchCricket]

You realize I was referring to Liara's comments about infiltrating another of the broker's bases, and not whether he should have one, right?

 

Wasn't responding to your comment specifically, yours was just a convenient one to latch onto the discussion.

 

In any case, I don't contest the broker has several bases. But they can be of many types, and not all of them would be suitable to run his network if Hagalaz goes down. I'm talking about specifically having such a backup.

[Mordokai]

They certainly write that its ok to take armor off dead bodies and have it displayed like its some kind of trophy in her apartment.

 

This again? Ok, lets take a look at this.

 

If we presume Liara found Shepard's body at Alchera we can also presume she "looted" the armor off of Shepard's corpse there. Now, when we visit Alchera and Normandy's remains, Shepard can find and pick her helmet. Now, first of all, if Shepard's ok with keeping her own helmet in her own cabin, I fail to see why it's so bad for Liara to keep another part of armor in her apartment. It obviously doesn't bother Shepard, I fail to see why it bothers you.

 

Second, I'm by no means expert in these things, but I would imagine that if helmet can be separated from the body, the chest plate can also do that and that would probably happen faster. For all we know, Liara could have simply found the chest piece while wandering around and deciding to keep it. There was no need to take anything off the body itself.

 

What's more important, if we take events of Redemption as canon(and I believe that was what was intended for it, somebody correct me if I'm wrong), we see Liara was never on Alchera. The trail led her to Omega, where the body was taken away to Shadow Broker's base and she and Feron got it there. Feron sacrificed himself to allow Liara to escape and take body to Miranda and Cerberus on Lazarus station. We see Liara never saw the body properly until arriving to Lazarus station. It's much more likely that it was Miranda who took the armor off the body... or, even more likely, CerberusMookNumber435. Maybe it was given to Liara as sentimental part-off... maybe Liara requested it herself. But the evidence point that no, Liara never laid her hands on Shepard's body and didn't took that armor off of her.

 

You can continue pretending that Liara is a deranged little ghoul, looking around with wicked smile, eyes darting this and that way, making sure she isn't caught in her nefarious undertaking. In fact... it's an amusing mental image, if for nothing else how much OOC it is.

 

Just realize how biased and unfounded in reality that image is.

 

As for displaying of the armor... it was displayed in a showcase, with no name tag, in an apartment which probably nobody ever visited. It was just about as tasteful as it could get. We don't know the asari culture in that many details... for all we know, that may be common occurrence in their culture. You're judging the alien on human standards and we're into some pretty weird stuff when it comes to honoring the dead. As Aethyta would have put it, anthropocentric bag of *blip*.

 

What would have been creepy would be coming to Liara's apartment and coming upon a dresser with which we could interact. When that would happen, it would open and reveal a set of asari robes... who would also be interectable. Interact with those and Shepard pulls them aside... only to find her armor behind them, with her picture taped above it and few burned out candles. That would have been creepy. But that never happened.

 

In short, you're applying biased view and human measures to an alien who can't be judged by those measures. Your conclusions are ultimately flawed because of this.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

 
**** no. Vasir belongs in hell having her face ventilated beyond recognition over and over again.
 
Possible adept replacements for Liara, filtered for no death conditions (even though that shouldn't and wouldn't matter):
-Aria
-Aethyta
-Kolyat (bonus drama with Thane)
-The cop from Samara's recruitment
-Javik (make him free again, he's on disk as it is)
-Rila/Falere (the one that survives)
-New character
 
 

 

Well no. In the case of ship to ship attack the Broker would have an escape plan. If he's entirely selfish he will not just go "welp they found me, guess it's all over." He'd try to fight, but more importantly he'd have a way out. And afterwards he wouldn't count on having a friendly warship he can just dump some of his computers on and work at suboptimal capacity.

 

There must be other facilities. And there's no reason to assume we'd just know about them. Facilities specifically meant for backup would be dark and buried. The whole point is to not find them so the network survives.

 

I gotta ask, what do you really have against Vasir that makes you hate her? She's a minor boss in a DLC, and she's your ally for 2/3rds of her her appearance.

 

Also, said facilities would be pretty useless since they aren't being used. Liara's not using them. Hell, it'd be a lot more secure than the Normandy to use them. I remember Liara said the Yahg broker had enough of an ego to not install any kind of security system in his operation regarding his own access. She makes it clear he never expected to be found out. He had no kind of back-up system or security system for his electronic organization. What makes you think he had a back-up base or facility? I'm not saying it doesn't make sense, I'm saying that the Yahg didn't predict anything would exist outside his desires, such as someone else getting into his system.

[KaiserShep]

Vasir was never an ally; she was merely pretending to be. Had Liara died in the explosion, Vasir would have simply said "Welp, so much for that chapter. Sorry about your dead colleague. Off to Spectre business now!" and left Shepard hanging. A former teammate is now murdered, and you have nothing to show for it.

[DeinonSlayer]

In short, you're applying biased view and human measures to an alien who can't be judged by those measures. Your conclusions are ultimately flawed because of this.

I've never understood this sentiment in general. Should the Council not judge the Yahg on account of their having slaughtered the first contact team? It's a point of Yahg culture that they should have submitted themselves to the stronger party on sheer principle; getting murdered for failure to do so was clearly their own fault. Wasn't it? Should we simply accept that slavery is a part of Batarian culture and not retaliate when they raid human colonies?

At the risk of setting the thread on fire, should the Spaniards not have judged the Aztec practice of human sacrifice as an appalling monstrosity (not that I'm defending what they did - we're talking pre-conquest here)? Should the British not have judged the Indian practice of burning women alive with their dead husbands (there was a great quote there - "You say it is your custom to burn widows. Very well, we also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; next to it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom, and then we will follow ours.")? This isn't to say we shouldn't reexamine our own moral principles from time to time - we absolutely should - but what standards should we be expected to apply to any given situation but our own?

[KaiserShep]

At the risk of setting the thread on fire..

 

You should know by now that it is our custom to set threads on fire.

 

[DeinonSlayer]

You should know by now that it is our custom to set threads on fire.

Guess all we need now is some marshmallows and a gallows.

[Mordokai]

I've never understood this sentiment in general. Should the Council not judge the Yahg on account of their having slaughtered the first contact team? It's a point of Yahg culture that they should have submitted themselves to the stronger party on sheer principle; getting murdered for failure to do so was clearly their own fault. Wasn't it? Should we simply accept that slavery is a part of Batarian culture and not retaliate when they raid human colonies?

At the risk of setting the thread on fire, should the Spaniards not have judged the Aztec practice of human sacrifice as an appalling monstrosity (not that I'm defending what they did - we're talking pre-conquest here)? Should the British not have judged the Indian practice of burning women alive with their dead husbands (there was a great quote there - "You say it is your custom to burn widows. Very well, we also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; next to it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom, and then we will follow ours.")? This isn't to say we shouldn't reexamine our own moral principles from time to time - we absolutely should - but what standards should we be expected to apply to any given situation but our own?

 

You're comparing heinous acts or murder, torture and in general appalling practices to harmless showing of respect for the dead? Am I the only one to see what's wrong here?

 

But, if it will make you feel better, I guess everything you counted could be stowed under "your rights end where the rights of another begin".

[MassivelyEffective0730]

This again? Ok, lets take a look at this.

 

1) If we presume Liara found Shepard's body at Alchera we can also presume she "looted" the armor off of Shepard's corpse there. Now, when we visit Alchera and Normandy's remains, Shepard can find and pick her helmet. Now, first of all, if Shepard's ok with keeping her own helmet in her own cabin, I fail to see why it's so bad for Liara to keep another part of armor in her apartment. It obviously doesn't bother Shepard, I fail to see why it bothers you.

 

2) Second, I'm by no means expert in these things, but I would imagine that if helmet can be separated from the body, the chest plate can also do that and that would probably happen faster. For all we know, Liara could have simply found the chest piece while wandering around and deciding to keep it. There was no need to take anything off the body itself.

 

3) What's more important, if we take events of Redemption as canon(and I believe that was what was intended for it, somebody correct me if I'm wrong), we see Liara was never on Alchera. The trail led her to Omega, where the body was taken away to Shadow Broker's base and she and Feron got it there. Feron sacrificed himself to allow Liara to escape and take body to Miranda and Cerberus on Lazarus station. We see Liara never saw the body properly until arriving to Lazarus station. It's much more likely that it was Miranda who took the armor off the body... or, even more likely, CerberusMookNumber435. Maybe it was given to Liara as sentimental part-off... maybe Liara requested it herself. But the evidence point that no, Liara never laid her hands on Shepard's body and didn't took that armor off of her.

 

4) You can continue pretending that Liara is a deranged little ghoul, looking around with wicked smile, eyes darting this and that way, making sure she isn't caught in her nefarious undertaking. In fact... it's an amusing mental image, if for nothing else how much OOC it is.

 

5) Just realize how biased and unfounded in reality that image is.

 

6) As for displaying of the armor... it was displayed in a showcase, with no name tag, in an apartment which probably nobody ever visited. It was just about as tasteful as it could get. We don't know the asari culture in that many details... for all we know, that may be common occurrence in their culture. You're judging the alien on human standards and we're into some pretty weird stuff when it comes to honoring the dead. As Aethyta would have put it, anthropocentric bag of *blip*.

 

7) What would have been creepy would be coming to Liara's apartment and coming upon a dresser with which we could interact. When that would happen, it would open and reveal a set of asari robes... who would also be interectable. Interact with those and Shepard pulls them aside... only to find her armor behind them, with her picture taped above it and few burned out candles. That would have been creepy. But that never happened.

 

8) In short, you're applying biased view and human measures to an alien who can't be judged by those measures. Your conclusions are ultimately flawed because of this.

 

1) Because it's Shepard's own helmet? There's a difference between Shepard keeping his or her own helmet and Liara keeping a piece of his or her armor displayed in her apartment. Especially if you're not in a relationship with her. She really comes across as rather obsessive about Shepard. And I'd like the chance to not be happy about Liara's feelings. I could talk to Legion about his piece of my armor, why can't I talk to Liara about it? I am very bothered by what Liara is doing. I'd be a bit disturbed if a female friend of mine kept a piece of my helmet that got destroyed when I was in Afghanistan.

 

2) Yeah, you're not an expert (no offense). I'm not either but these things tend to stay together. If Shepard's armor shattered and broke apart in different places on impact, then his body would have had to have fit into several trashbags instead of a body bag. Looking at what Legion did, she'd have had to have recovered the armor from his corpse, be it on Alchera, Omega, or given to her by Miranda.

 

3) This leads to a discrepancy on how Legion acquired his own piece of armor, and he states he gained it at Shepard's place of death.

 

4) I agree, it's out of character in that regard. However, Liara does have an abnormal connection to Shepard that borders on disturbing fixation, especially if her feelings aren't reciprocated. Tali does too, to an extent. Maybe it's because she's an alien, or maybe it's because she's an emotional virgin who never really got involved with people before (leaving her physical virginity if unromanced aside). That said, it's not human, and I find it to be a problem. I'd imagine my Shepard gives her a talk about how its unhealthy to have such a fixation on him, and to move on, since it's never going to be as Shepard doesn't feel that connection to Liara. To him (my Shepard), she's a friendly acquaintance who has a tendency to finagle her way into his affairs unnecessarily.

 

5) It's rather biased, yes, but so is your opinion that there's nothing wrong with her fixation on Shepard, to a level where she's hanging pieces of his armor - the armor that he died in - in her apartment. I don't know about you, but to me, that's kind of morbid. Reminds me of Miss Havisham and her wedding dress.

 

6) It may well be an alien thing. That said, I'm not seeing a lot of precedent for it with other Asari. I can see how it might make sense to a Shepard who romances Liara or is close to her as a friend, but for a Shepard who is vaguely aware that there's an irritating and naive (and just plain weird) Asari in the medical storage area of the ship in ME1, as my Shepard views her? It doesn't come across as very healthy or mentally balanced. It's sentimentality for a person who didn't like you. What would give her cause to hold Shepard in such a romanticized view as to hang a piece of his armor in her apartment?

 

7) Yes, it would be, but you're making the stakes a bit higher for that out of, I suspect, personal incredulity and bias to the existing. The simple fact that Liara even bothered to recover Shepard for more than a monetary profit or tangential benefit from Cerberus is disturbing, considering he personally (my Shepard) didn't hold her in high regard and wasn't a very kind or appreciative person to her.

 

8) Read 6.

[Barquiel]

Liara's entire apartment was full of mementos. It seems Liara (or maybe all asari) simply likes to keep mementos of all aspects of her life. But that has absolutely nothing to do with her squadmate status, of course. There was simply no reason to replace Liara in ME3. She's popular and always alive. That means Bioware could please a large fanbase by making her a squadmate...and Casey Hudson confirmed that they kept Liara from being a squad member in ME2 because they wanted her (and the VS) in ME3. Why exactly should they suddenly decide to replace her by some minor (killable) NPC or a new character nobody asked for?

[DeinonSlayer]

You're comparing heinous acts or murder, torture and in general appalling practices to harmless showing of respect for the dead? Am I the only one to see what's wrong here?
 
But, if it will make you feel better, I guess everything you counted could be stowed under "your rights end where the rights of another begin".

The whole point I'm making is that just because someone else's customs are different does not mean we should not be allowed to judge them one way or another. Those are extreme examples, yes, but what I'm ultimately saying is that being different does not, and should not, immunize one from scrutiny or criticism.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I've never understood this sentiment in general. Should the Council not judge the Yahg on account of their having slaughtered the first contact team? It's a point of Yahg culture that they should have submitted themselves to the stronger party on sheer principle; getting murdered for failure to do so was clearly their own fault. Wasn't it? Should we simply accept that slavery is a part of Batarian culture and not retaliate when they raid human colonies?

At the risk of setting the thread on fire, should the Spaniards not have judged the Aztec practice of human sacrifice as an appalling monstrosity (not that I'm defending what they did - we're talking pre-conquest here)? Should the British not have judged the Indian practice of burning women alive with their dead husbands (there was a great quote there - "You say it is your custom to burn widows. Very well, we also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; next to it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom, and then we will follow ours.")? This isn't to say we shouldn't reexamine our own moral principles from time to time - we absolutely should - but what standards should we be expected to apply to any given situation but our own?

 

Well you set the thread on fire... 

 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

You're comparing heinous acts or murder, torture and in general appalling practices to harmless showing of respect for the dead? Am I the only one to see what's wrong here?

 

But, if it will make you feel better, I guess everything you counted could be stowed under "your rights end where the rights of another begin".

 

That's not respect for the dead. That's morbid fixation and borderline obsession. I'm not calling it respect for the dead; I'm calling it desecration of the dead. Liara is a nobody to my Shepard. She's a convenient tool (that doesn't work right most of the time in ME1), and he can be pretty vocal about how he feels in that regard. Trust me, I tried; it is very possible to be a complete jerkass to her in ME1. Which would make her fascination with Shepard to a point where she can't accept or overcome his death in between ME1 and ME2 very disturbing indeed.

 

 If you're ever the only person that's seeing the writing on the wall over something, that typically means your either A.) Delusional B.) Lying C.) Wrong D.) Insane.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

1) Because it's Shepard's own helmet? There's a difference between Shepard keeping his or her own helmet and Liara keeping a piece of his or her armor displayed in her apartment. Especially if you're not in a relationship with her. She really comes across as rather obsessive about Shepard. And I'd like the chance to not be happy about Liara's feelings. I could talk to Legion about his piece of my armor, why can't I talk to Liara about it? I am very bothered by what Liara is doing. I'd be a bit disturbed if a female friend of mine kept a piece of my helmet that got destroyed when I was in Afghanistan.

 

 

 

You've been dead for two years. You have no say in the matter. It's like people who keep a loved one's ashes. They're not bad people. Get over yourself.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Vasir was never an ally; she was merely pretending to be. Had Liara died in the explosion, Vasir would have simply said "Welp, so much for that chapter. Sorry about your dead colleague. Off to Spectre business now!" and left Shepard hanging. A former teammate is now murdered, and you have nothing to show for it.

 

And to be honest, my Shepard really wouldn't have cared. I don't even know what my Shepard's beef with the SB is. I don't even know what the SB's beef with my Shepard is. I worked with him in ME1. I let Wrex kill Fist, and I gave him the data on Cerberus. Hell, I got a promise from an agent that he wouldn't forget what I did for the SB. Vasir wasn't an ally when she could have been one. Said former teammate was arguably my Shepard's most forgotten. In fact, I'm surprised I wasn't approached by the SB at some point, and I'd be surprised that I wasn't if Liara was killed.

[KaiserShep]

It could've been worse.

 

Shepard: "Liara, what the hell is in this jar?"

 

Liara: "Well, Project Lazarus involved quite a lot of extensive augmentation. Certain...parts were no longer needed, as implants serve their purpose now."

 

Shepard: "So...is this...?"

 

Liara: "Your kidneys, yes."

 

And to be honest, my Shepard really wouldn't have cared. I don't even know what my Shepard's beef with the SB is. I don't even know what the SB's beef with my Shepard is. I worked with him in ME1. I let Wrex kill Fist, and I gave him the data on Cerberus. Hell, I got a promise from an agent that he wouldn't forget what I did for the SB. Vasir wasn't an ally when she could have been one. Said former teammate was arguably my Shepard's most forgotten. In fact, I'm surprised I wasn't approached by the SB at some point, and I'd be surprised that I wasn't if Liara was killed.

 

I had already assumed that some people would not really care, and neither would I if it was a character I was very vocal about being either indifferent toward or outright hated. The point is that if you were in Liara's apartment, you obviously had an interest in helping her get to the Shadow Broker. You had committed to an objective to which Vasir was in opposition. If you were unsure as to why you have a beef with the Broker, why agree to help her in the first place? Basically, if your Shepard does this mission, your Shepard does care, just like how Shepard cares about any companion with which he/she goes on a loyalty mission with.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

It could've been worse.

 

Shepard: "Liara, what the hell is in this jar?"

 

Liara: "Well, Project Lazarus involved quite a lot of extensive augmentation. Certain...parts were no longer needed, as implants serve their purpose now."

 

Shepard: "So...is this...?"

 

Liara: "Your kidneys, yes."

 

But they're specially preserved. We could have them for dinner tonight if you'd like.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

You've been dead for two years. You have no say in the matter. It's like people who keep a loved one's ashes. They're not bad people. Get over yourself.

 

I'm back now. I do have a say in the matter now. It's not at all like people who keep a loved one's ashes. Liara wasn't a loved one, or even a liked one. I never treated her kindly. All I did was save her (and I threatened to take her back and leave her where I found her). I even told her in very intentionally insensitive terms to get over her mother's death. Why the hell is she treating me reverently now? Liara isn't 'bad' for this, but it's disturbing how her fixation with me has led to her hanging my body armor that I died in in her personal apartment, full of her most cherished possessions and mementos. And your last statement is very whiny towards me. You get over yourself. I'm going to be critical about a shitty implementation in this game, and disappointed with how I couldn't call out Liara for her issues regarding me.

[DeinonSlayer]

It could've been worse.
 
Shepard: "Liara, what the hell is in this jar?"
 
Liara: "Well, Project Lazarus involved quite a lot of extensive augmentation. Certain...parts were no longer needed, as implants serve their purpose now."
 
Shepard: "So...is this...?"
 
Liara: "Your kidneys, yes."

Miranda: "We pretty much replaced all the internal organs, and some of the more disgusting external ones. Except for Shepard's spleen, which will be inflated and used for general recreation, and esprit du corps."