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[Iakus]

Doesn't explain the moronic war to begin with.

 

I would shoot Gerrel just for starting it. Zal'Koris had it right, and I can even appreciate Xen's position (while I don't agree the geth should be enslaved by her, at least the quarians would then turn them loose on the Reapers). But Gerrel is just an idiot blowhard who's costing me far more time and resouces than he's worth, for no good reason.

 

Gerrel's reasoning for the war was actually far more reasonable in ME2.  You may not agree with him, but at least he seemed to have a brain.

 

ME3 turning him into a "Grr, Arg.  Kill all toasters!" idiot.  A caricature of his former self.

[DeinonSlayer]

Gerrel's reasoning for the war was actually far more reasonable in ME2. You may not agree with him, but at least he seemed to have a brain.

ME3 turning him into a "Grr, Arg. Kill all toasters!" idiot. A caricature of his former self.

Sort of like if ME2 Mordin ran around screaming "Kill the Krogan!" in his loyalty mission. The reasons for the genophage would still exist, there simply wouldn't be a character to intelligently articulate them in-game.

Hence ME3, where the only remaining advocate for the Genophage was a shrill racist who is insulted behind her back by her own subordinates (lest there be any mistake what we should think about her) and whom we're railroaded into fighting with in the summit.

Most of the job of articulating the Quarian position in ME3, sadly, fell on Renegade Shepard...

[CrutchCricket]

@Crutch

That's another essay, and again, this isn't the thread for it.

I really ought to keep links to old arguments, rather than write them out again every time...

 

That's why I have my Control: Explained link in my sig. Though to be honest I'm so tired of even seeing the same inane complaints over and over that I rarely bother pointing to it anymore.

 

Gerrel's reasoning for the war was actually far more reasonable in ME2.  You may not agree with him, but at least he seemed to have a brain.

 

ME3 turning him into a "Grr, Arg.  Kill all toasters!" idiot.  A caricature of his former self.

 

I would think the quarians of all people would be more appreciative of the fact that Sovereign wasn't geth tech, therefore there must be something to this Reaper talk Shepard and Tali keep going on about. In the face of the Reaper threat, no other consideration is reasonable.

 

Not that I found him very convincing anyway.

[CrutchCricket]

Sort of like if ME2 Mordin ran around screaming "Kill the Krogan!" In his loyalty mission. The reasons for the genophage would still exist, there simply wouldn't be a character to intelligently articulate them.

Hence ME3, where the only remaining advocate for the Genophage was a shrill racist who is insulted behind her back by her own subordinates (lest there be any mistake what we should think about her) and whom we're railroaded into fighting with in the summit.

 

And the reason for another quarian/geth war on the eve of a Reaper invasion is...?

 

As for the genophage, its time is over. Yes it was necessary at the time. But the conditions that made it necessary no longer exist. It's time to cease meddling and let nature take over. The krogan adapt or they die, just like everything else.

[Iakus]

Heck Mordin's about-face in ME3 is more believable than Gerrel's leap off the deep end.  Mordin, at least, admitted that the genophage was "ethically difficult"

[Iakus]

That's why I have my Control: Explained link in my sig. Though to be honest I'm so tired of even seeing the same inane complaints over and over that I rarely bother pointing to it anymore.

 

 

I would think the quarians of all people would be more appreciative of the fact that Sovereign wasn't geth tech, therefore there must be something to this Reaper talk Shepard and Tali keep going on about. In the face of the Reaper threat, no other consideration is reasonable.

 

Not that I found him very convincing anyway.

 

Actually, that was part of it, yeah:

 

http://www.youtube.c...hdcs8WoFc#t=215

[DeinonSlayer]

If you paid attention in ME2, Crutch, the Quarians were one of the few groups who acknowledged the Reaper threat before they kicked the galaxy's teeth in. The Reaper threat is precisely why they did what they did. They can't contribute to the war in any meaningful way with their entire civilian populace on board (dependence on daily shipments from the liveships prevents ships from separating from the fleet, and the cargo bays which could otherwise be toting war materiel are each home to hundreds of civilians living in tiny metal cubicles). A single Reaper showing up and taking potshots at the liveships would doom the entire species to extinction. They needed a planet to survive, and unless there's a Turian colony which is 1) not under Reaper attack, 2) not overwhelmed by Turian refugees, and 3) willing and able to take in somewhere around 16.5 million refugees with finicky diets, Rannoch is the only alternative - and the Geth aren't giving it back. Legion severed communication with Tali before the Quarians invaded (he is found trussed up in a Reaper device). The Quarians invaded after the Reapers invaded (the Spectre terminal item "Quarian Fleet intel" suggests their activity near the Perseus Veil is a reaction to the Reaper invasion, meaning they didn't start their attack until the Reapers had already arrived). That should tell you something right there.

...damn it, roped into this again? I need to get some sleep.

[CrutchCricket]

Actually, that was part of it, yeah:

 

http://www.youtube.c...hdcs8WoFc#t=215

 

Yeah because "a world to shelter the non-combatants" works so well for everyone else...

 

The quarians pre-Rannoch are actually in the most advantageous position of any organics, because they can't get pinned down defending one location. Anything gets too hot, they can just jump to FTL. Apart from the obvious technological disadvantage and needing supplies, the Migrant Fleet would be just as difficult to fight as the Reapers.

 

 

If you paid attention in ME2, Crutch, the Quarians were one of the few groups who acknowledged the Reaper threat before they kicked the galaxy's teeth in. The Reaper threat is precisely why they did what they did. They can't contribute to the war in any meaningful way with their entire civilian populace on board, and a single Reaper showing up and taking potshots at the liveships would doom the entire species to extinction. They needed a planet to survive, and unless there's a Turian colony which is A) not under Reaper attack, not overwhelmed by Turian refugees, and C) willing and able to take in somewhere around 16.5 million refugees with finicky diets, Rannoch is the only alternative - and the Geth aren't giving it back. Legion severed communication with Tali before the Quarians invaded (he is found trussed up in a Reaper device). The Quarians invaded after the Reapers invaded (the Spectre terminal item "Quarian Fleet intel" suggests their activity near the Perseus Veil is a reaction to the Reaper invasion, meaning they didn't start their attack until the Reapers had already arrived). That should tell you something right there.

 

Nope, that doesn't cut it. The geth reached out to the Reapers only because the quarians fucked up their Dyson sphere and too many resources were lost.

 

And again, we see how useful a planet really is to surviving the Reapers. You can't bunker down against the Reapers. Being mobile is actually your best bet.

[CronoDragoon]

Nope, that doesn't cut it. The geth reached out to the Reapers only because the quarians fucked up their Dyson sphere and too many resources were lost.

 

Quarians still needed Rannoch, and the geth for whatever unexplained reason weren't giving it up.

 

And again, we see how useful a planet really is to surviving the Reapers. You can't bunker down against the Reapers. Being mobile is actually your best bet.

 

You can be mobile on a planet, you know. Anderson utilizes exactly this strategy to maintain a guerrilla force on Earth. You won't win a battle against the Reapers, but the possibility of your entire race being wiped out in a battle disappears.

[DeinonSlayer]

Even before the war, the fleet's existence was hand-to-mouth, dependent on external infrastructure for basic survival. This infrastructure is being rapidly destroyed. If your cargo hold is literally packed to the rafters with civilians who depend on daily shipments of food from a liveship, your ship cannot split away from the fleet to haul cargo for the Crucible project, evacuate a colony, or move soldiers from A to B. They needed to offload their civilian populace to effectively contribute to the Reaper war. The only alternative courses of action I've seen anyone suggest to taking back Rannoch typically boil down to spontaneously pulling a habitable Dextro world ready for settlement out of their collective asses, or "You have reached the Citadel Council, please hold."

It takes days, according to the Codex, for the Migrant Fleet to traverse a single relay. It would take minutes for a Sovereign-class Reaper to catch them with their pants down, and the loss of a liveship, or a fuel miner/processor, or any of a dozen other things would break them. If they could manage to move one ship through a mass relay every second, it would take fourteen hours for the entire fleet of 50,000 to make the jump through one of them. Hence the idiocy of Shepard suggesting they try to escape Tikkun by relay.

Running isn't a plan. Running is what you do when a plan fails.

As for the "outreach," what I'm telling you is that the Reapers made their offer to the Geth before the Quarians invaded. Legion stopped responding to Tali before they invaded because his buddies were busy tying him up in the device on board the Dreadnought. The Geth simply didn't accept the code until their backs were against the wall (or the Reaper didn't give it to them until the Migrant Fleet was in a position to be corralled in the Tikkun system).

The alternative is that the Reaper managed to enter the system when the Quarians were already there, couple with the dreadnought and transfer that tech over, and embed itself at a pre-existing planetside facility conveniently adapted to house it, all without being noticed, and only then started the broadcast.

[CrutchCricket]

Quarians still needed Rannoch, and the geth for whatever unexplained reason weren't giving it up.

 

 

You can be mobile on a planet, you know. Anderson utilizes exactly this strategy to maintain a guerrilla force on Earth. You won't win a battle against the Reapers, but the possibility of your entire race being wiped out in a battle disappears.

 

For what? Getting their people put through their own versions of Reaper harvesting camps? As for the geth, it's clearly stated they have no use for Rannoch and are keeping it for eventual creator return. Diplomacy and peace could and should easily have been achieved without all this nonsense.

 

And why are you talking about guerrilla forces when the claim is that they need to protect civilians? And mobility over a finite dirtball is nothing compared to limitless space and FTL.

[CronoDragoon]

For what? Getting their people put through their own versions of Reaper harvesting camps? As for the geth, it's clearly stated they have no use for Rannoch and are keeping it for eventual creator return. Diplomacy and peace could and should easily have been achieved without all this nonsense.

 

Yes it should have. So who was holding it back? Certainly not the quarians as Tali was already in negotiations with Legion. So the geth are taking care of the planet until the quarians return. They themselves say they don't consider Rannoch their home and live on space stations around it. The quarians say they want to return. What was the holdup?

 

And why are you talking about guerrilla forces when the claim is that they need to protect civilians? And mobility over a finite dirtball is nothing compared to limitless space and FTL.

 

I'm talking about guerrilla forces because that is the purpose Anderson happened to utilize for his eventual strategy of avoiding major cities where it is stated the Reapers concentrate their forces. I'm not saying the quarians should have tried to fight.

 

And yeah maybe the quarians could have just high-tailed it and kept fleeing the Reapers. But I got the feeling they actually wanted to, you know, ally with the rest of the galaxy and fight against them. Hence Rannoch, hence quarian attack when Legion broke off peace negotiations.

[DeinonSlayer]

For what? Getting their people put through their own versions of Reaper harvesting camps? As for the geth, it's clearly stated they have no use for Rannoch and are keeping it for eventual creator return. Diplomacy and peace could and should easily have been achieved without all this nonsense.

And why are you talking about guerrilla forces when the claim is that they need to protect civilians? And mobility over a finite dirtball is nothing compared to limitless space and FTL.

Is that why they ignored all attempts to hail them and killed anyone to enter their space on sight for the last three centuries? Is that why they sat back and did nothing about the heretics for two years after Sovereign's attack on the Citadel? Is that why Legion severed communication?

Between that and the 99% extermination of the Quarian race which the writers went out of their way to never, ever directly mention again, there'd be a huge shadow hanging over any kind of peace negotiations.

Still, I'd have loved a chance to call up Gerrel and challenge him with these kinds of questions, establish the perspective. I imagine his response to the suggestion that they could have resolved things by negotiating would be to ask why Shepard hasn't tried flying back to Sol and asking the Reapers nicely to give Earth back.

Whether you think he's right or wrong is entirely up to you. That's what they're being asked to negotiate with: the three-hundred-year-old gestalt entity which nearly exterminated them.

[CrutchCricket]

It takes days, according to the Codex, for the Migrant Fleet to traverse a single relay. It would take minutes for a Sovereign-class Reaper to catch them with their oants down, and the loss of a liveship, or a fuel miner, or any of a dozen other things would break them. If they could manage to move one ship through a mass relay every second, it would take fourteen hours for the entire fleet of 50,000 to make the jump through one of them.

Running isn't a plan. Running is what you do when a plan fails.

 
They have no need to go through a relay until the Crucible is ready to be deployed. We're gathering fleets but we're not mobilizing them until the final battle (otherwise there's no point). In the meantime they can jump to local FTL at the first sign of trouble and do hit-and runs against local forces when possible.
 

As for the "outreach," what I'm telling you is that the Reapers made their offer to the Geth before the Quarians invaded. Legion stopped responding to Tali before they invaded because his buddies were busy tying him up in the device on board the Dreadnought. The Geth simply didn't accept the code until their backs were against the wall (or the Reaper didn't give it to them until the Migrant Fleet was in a position to be corralled in the Tikkun system).

 
Source?
 

The alternative is that the Reaper managed to enter the system when the Quarians were already there, couple with the dreadnought and transfer that tech over, and embed itself at a pre-existing planetside facility conveniently adapted to house it, all without being noticed, and only then started the broadcast.

Transfer tech? There was no hardware transfer. The Reaper code was just a signal. Timeline appears to be as such:

 

-Quarians attack. Dyson sphere destroyed.

-Geth make deal with Reapers. Legion/VI used as temp signal booster (because reasons) while Reaper destroyer sets itself up on Rannoch.

 

And what are you calling "conveniently adapted" in that base? A circular hanger the Reaper was hiding in?

[DeinonSlayer]

They have no need to go through a relay until the Crucible is ready to be deployed. We're gathering fleets but we're not mobilizing them until the final battle (otherwise there's no point). In the meantime they can jump to local FTL at the first sign of trouble and do hit-and runs against local forces when possible.

To get anywhere, you need to go through a relay. The Quarian fleet isn't just sitting around in Tikkun until called upon for the Banzai charge on Earth. Hackett needs them to split up galaxy-wide and take over logistics, which means they need to empty the civilians out of their cargo holds before they can serve that purpose. They're not meant to serve primarily as a fighting force; they're there to get everything and everyone where they need to go to build the Crucible.
 

Source?

Tali, on why Legion stopped communicating before they invaded: "Perhaps he was trying to fight the Reaper takeover, or perhaps he didn't want to share information with an enemy."

Legion stopped responding to Tali, simply saying "consensus could not be reached." I admit my timeline is partially inferred, but it makes sense to me that the Reaper was already there before the Quarians invaded, and only gave them the code when they were at their most desperate.
 

Transfer tech? There was no hardware transfer. The Reaper code was just a signal. Timeline appears to be as such:
 
-Quarians attack. Dyson sphere destroyed.
-Geth make deal with Reapers. Legion/VI used as temp signal booster (because reasons) while Reaper destroyer sets itself up on Rannoch.
 
And what are you calling "conveniently adapted" in that base? A circular hanger the Reaper was hiding in?

"That's definitely Reaper tech. But what's-?"
*Reaper device opens*
"Shepard-Commander, help us!"

Even the timeline you give above requires that the Reaper arrive in-system when the Quarians are already there in strength, without being detected.

[CrutchCricket]

Yes it should have. So who was holding it back? Certainly not the quarians as Tali was already in negotiations with Legion. So the geth are taking care of the planet until the quarians return. They themselves say they don't consider Rannoch their home and live on space stations around it. The quarians say they want to return. What was the holdup?

 

 

I'm talking about guerrilla forces because that is the purpose Anderson happened to utilize for his eventual strategy of avoiding major cities where it is stated the Reapers concentrate their forces. I'm not saying the quarians should have tried to fight.

 

And yeah maybe the quarians could have just high-tailed it and kept fleeing the Reapers. But I got the feeling they actually wanted to, you know, ally with the rest of the galaxy and fight against them. Hence Rannoch, hence quarian attack when Legion broke off peace negotiations.

 

Well we'd both like to know that.

 

You're using Anderson's guerila force as an example but Anderson has no choice. People are already on Earth. No sane commander would drop the people he's supposed to protect in that situation simply because by using guerilla tactics they won't be immediately wiped out.

 

They didn't need Rannoch to ally with the rest of the galaxy. All they needed to do was stay alive, harass the Reapers as much as possible, maybe contribute some tech and scientists to the Crucible and wait for the call to deploy the party. Like everyone else, only minus the billions in death tolls and concentration camps

 

Is that why they ignored all attempts to hail them and killed anyone to enter their space on sight for the last three centuries? Is that why Legion severed communication?

Between that and the 99% extermination of the Quarian race which the writers went out of their way to never, ever directly mention again, there'd be a huge shadow hanging over any kind of peace negotiations.

Still, I'd have loved a chance to call up Gerrel and challenge him with these kinds of questions, establish the perspective. I imagine his response to the suggestion that they could have resolved things by negotiating would be to ask why Shepard hasn't tried flying back to Sol and asking the Reapers nicely to give Earth back.

 

Legion flat out tells you in ME2 that the geth would be open to peace, except that the quarians have attacked every single time they thought they could win. It would take some doing. But something could've been worked out.

 

I'm reminded of a quote from the Matrix Reloaded: "A sentinel for every man, woman and child. Sounds exactly like the thinking of a machine to me." The geth were threatened, they responded. It wasn't malicious, they were just being systematic. And they stopped because as Legions says, they weren't prepared to deal with the consequences of eliminating an entire species.

 

Are you kidding me? You're honestly comparing the geth to the Reapers?

[CrutchCricket]

To get anywhere, you need to go through a relay. The Quarian fleet isn't just sitting around in Tikkun until called upon for the Banzai charge on Earth. Hackett needs them to split up galaxy-wide and take over logistics, which means they need to empty the civilians out of their cargo holds before they can serve that purpose. They're not meant to serve primarily as a fighting force; they're there to get everything and everyone where they need to go to build the Crucible.

 

If they split up, your "days to cross a relay" theory no longer holds. And is there any particular reason quarian ships must serve as transports, as opposed to merely relieving other ships that don't have their capacity problem?

 

The bottom line is this: when faced with a galactic extinction event that will take every resource you have to just maybe not have everyone die horrible deaths, you don't start up pointless wars with each other.
 

Tali, on why Legion stopped communicating before they invaded: "Perhaps he was trying to fight the Reaper takeover, or perhaps he didn't want to share information with an enemy."

Legion stopped responding to Tali, simply saying "consensus could not be reached." I admit my timeline is partially inferred, but it makes sense to me that the Reaper was already there before the Quarians invaded, and only gave them the code when they were at their most desperate.

 

We're not really told what Tali was asking for on those communications either, right? And with Gerrel the Destroyer and Xen the Controller on the Admiralty board, Tali being token and Koris being outvoted at every turn, I kind of doubt the negotiations were in much good faith.

 

I can admit it would be difficult to see them come to an understanding on their own. I think mediation by an outside source they both trust would be needed. Shepard obviously fills that role. But I guess the sequences we got are more exciting to play through than "Shepard sits a table with Legion and the quarians and works out a peace treaty." Of course if Shepard hadn't been a tool and turned himself in, we might've still gotten something better. But that's a whole other can of worms.

 

"That's definitely Reaper tech. But what's-?"
*Reaper device opens*
"Shepard-Commander, help us!"

Even the timeline you give above requires that the Reaper arrive in-system when the Quarians are already there in strength, without being detected.

 

I'm sorry, is that too advanced for a Reaper to do?

[DeinonSlayer]

Legion flat out tells you in ME2 that the geth would be open to peace, except that the quarians have attacked every single time they thought they could win. It would take some doing. But something could've been worked out.

I'm reminded of a quote from the Matrix Reloaded: "A sentinel for every man, woman and child. Sounds exactly like the thinking of a machine to me." The geth were threatened, they responded. It wasn't malicious, they were just being systematic. And they stopped because as Legions says, they weren't prepared to deal with the consequences of eliminating an entire species.

Are you kidding me? You're honestly comparing the geth to the Reapers?

For two years, they didn't care to make any distinction between themselves and the heretics. For three centuries before that, they killed every organic they encountered on sight and shunned all attempts made to open channels with them. They hunted the Quarians to extinction on their own homeworld. Coming from the perspective of someone who never interacted with Legion (Gerrel, in this case), the comparison with the reapers seems reasonable. That was the whole point of what I was saying: present his perspective. Show the situation from multiple points of view. We get beaten over the head with a Geth sympathy stick for half an hour, but all we can get out of Raan is fleet composition? If ME3 is the best place to start the trilogy, then new players are only hearing one side.

Why so many people would expect the Quarians to forget all of that (and why some believe the Geth should be lauded because they couldn't make up their minds on whether to exterminate the last of the tattered, fleeing survivors fast enough to actually do so) is beyond me.

[DeinonSlayer]

If they split up, your "days to cross a relay" theory no longer holds. And is there any particular reason quarian ships must serve as transports, as opposed to merely relieving other ships that don't have their capacity problem?

The bottom line is this: when faced with a galactic extinction event that will take every resource you have to just maybe not have everyone die horrible deaths, you don't start up pointless wars with each other.

If they split up while their entire civilian populace remains on board, they are no longer within range for daily delivery of food from a liveship. Those hundreds of people filling your cargo hold still need to eat. Hence you either have to dump them off on a planet capable of supporting them (at least enough to supplement the liveships), or you have to remain together as a single massed fleet with the liveships at their core. Not sure what good a cargo transport can do for the war when its hold is already, physically, full.

We're not really told what Tali was asking for on those communications either, right? And with Gerrel the Destroyer and Xen the Controller on the Admiralty board, Tali being token and Koris being outvoted at every turn, I kind of doubt the negotiations were in much good faith.

I can admit it would be difficult to see them come to an understanding on their own. I think mediation by an outside source they both trust would be needed. Shepard obviously fills that role. But I guess the sequences we got are more exciting to play through than "Shepard sits a table with Legion and the quarians and works out a peace treaty." Of course if Shepard hadn't been a tool and turned himself in, we might've still gotten something better. But that's a whole other can of worms.

I had actually written an alternate Priority: Rannoch which was more along those lines - intercept the Quarians before they go to war with the Geth, but the Tuchanka bomb goes off in the meantime. The biggest problem with it was that, despite a big fleet battle taking place, the only dakka I could put in there was a confrontation with Xen's personal security detail if you failed to convince Kal'Reegar that a peaceful solution was possible (contingent on imported events).

I'm sorry, is that too advanced for a Reaper to do?

I've outlined the two scenarios which could explain how we got there. I adhere to interpretation A, you adhere to interpretation B despite what I see as glaring plot holes. It was an area the writers left deliberately vague - I'd have to dig for the post, but the only time I saw a writer on here, she said they left things just vague enough in hopes of spurring friendly discussion like this.

If you'll pardon me, I really do need to get some sleep.

[Invisible Man]

didn't we have this discussion already deinonslayer? and neither of us really changed our minds. most of what we seem to be arguing about, has to be conjecture, as we can't really prove, either positively or negatively... what was actually going on at the time. there just isn't enough information supplied in game or on other media, I guess that's by design, so we have to rely on what were told, and accept it on face value. I don't really like it either, but I work with what I have, not what I wish or think.

[CrutchCricket]

For two years, they didn't care to make any distinction between themselves and the heretics. For three centuries before that, they killed every organic they encountered on sight and shunned all attempts made to open channels with them. They hunted the Quarians to extinction on their own homeworld. Coming from the perspective of someone who never interacted with Legion (Gerrel, in this case), the comparison with the reapers seems reasonable. That was the whole point of what I was saying: present his perspective. Show the situation from multiple points of view. We get beaten over the head with a Geth sympathy stick for half an hour, but all we can get out of Raan is fleet composition? If ME3 is the best place to start the trilogy, then new players are only hearing one side.

Why so many people would expect the Quarians to forget all of that (and why some believe the Geth should be lauded because they couldn't make up their minds on whether to exterminate the last of the tattered, fleeing survivors fast enough to actually do so) is beyond me.

 

Who would they make that distinction to? Who, in this whole "AIs are evil and creating them is illegal" galaxy would stop and listen to a geth instead of just shooting it? And still the geth do reach out, to one person, on the basis of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". The reason it takes two years is because Shepard died. Of course you have to question the logic of sending a single unit to find a single man in an entire galaxy, but hey, that's the way it's written.

 

I can appreciate that someone who's never interacted with Legion would have no reason to re-evaluate the geth. But in those cases where Legion is activated (and especially if it survives the SM) I don't think Gerrel can claim ignorance anymore. Depending on what you do, you can have Tali, Shepard, and Koris be able to tell him what the deal with the geth is. He can also talk to Legion himself if you bring it at the trial though I don't think he does.

 

And I don't think ME3 was biased with geth sympathy any more than ME1 was anti-geth. Granted the signature Bioware lack of subtlety is undeniable. But they do have to combat 1.5 games of geth being Acceptable Targets, as well as their being considered less than alive anyway. So while heavy-handedness was still heavy, some of it was necessary.

 

If they split up while their entire civilian populace remains on board, they are no longer within range for daily deliver of food from a liveship. Those hundreds of people filling your cargo hold still need to eat. Hence you either have to dump them off on a planet capable of supporting them (at least enough to supplement the liveships), or you have to remain together as a single massed fleet with the liveships at their core.

I had actually written an alternate Priority: Rannoch which was more along those lines - intercept the Quarians before they go to war with the Geth, but the Tuchanka bomb goes off in the meantime. The biggest problem with it was that, despite a big fleet battle taking place, the only dakka I could put in there was a confrontation with Xen's personal security detail if you failed to convince Kal'Reegar that a peaceful solution was possible (contingent on imported events).

I've outlined the two scenarios which could explain how we got there. I adhere to interpretation A, you adhere to interpretation B despite what I see as glaring plot holes. It was an area the writers left deliberately vague - I'd have to dig for the post, but the only time I saw a writer on here, she said they left things just vague enough in hopes of spurring friendly discussion like this.

If you'll pardon me, I really do need to get some sleep.

 

Additional non-combat vessels with supplies from turian colonies (or from the liveships themselves) should alleviate some of that. Sure it's not going to be a banquet. But you're not going to convince me that going a little hungry is worse than harvesting camps.

 

I don't see what the Tuchanka bomb has to do with any of this, unless you just threw it in there for arbitrary consequences- the worst kind of consequences. In any case I can see the difficulty of making it rewarding in terms of player experience. Perhaps the Reaper manages to hack some geth around Rannoch anyway, and so the Rannoch specific missions could still remain?

 

I'm getting pretty tired myself so I'm fine with leaving it here. Chances are we're just not gonna see eye to eye on this anyway.

[ImaginaryMatter]

ME3 sure would have been a great time for one of those DA:O landmeet style scenes. That would have been pretty great.

 

Not going to hop on board the Rannoch Express Pain Train. Unfortunately, I don't think the writer's put in as much thought into the events surrounding Rannoch as much as we BSNers do, besides Geth = good, Quarian leadership = bad. Vital information like Relay traversing, the 300 years of Geth isolation, the specifics of the Geth/Reaper deal and code upgrades, a Quarian perspective, etc. are never brought up or given any significant consideration.

 

Ultimately, I save them both. If it came down to it I would probably choose the Geth because I think they're cooler looking and sometimes that feels like the same amount of depth the developers put into the Geth/Quarian conflict in ME3. I won't deny that the Geth bias had an effect on me.

[Bob from Accounting]

Unfortunately, I don't think the writer's put in as much thought into the events surrounding Rannoch as much as we BSNers do.

 

Rarely has the phrase 'Quality vs. Quantity' been more apt.

[ImaginaryMatter]

didn't we have this discussion already deinonslayer? and neither of us really changed our minds. most of what we seem to be arguing about, has to be conjecture, as we can't really prove, either positively or negatively... what was actually going on at the time. there just isn't enough information supplied in game or on other media, I guess that's by design, so we have to rely on what were told, and accept it on face value. I don't really like it either, but I work with what I have, not what I wish or think.

 

I think that's where the problem lies, what we're told doesn't make sense.

 

Granted it probably only effects people who read things like the secondary Codex entry on the Quarian Migrant Fleet.

[Invisible Man]

I think that's where the problem lies, what we're told doesn't make sense.
 
Granted it probably only effects people who read things like the secondary Codex entry on the Quarian Migrant Fleet.

I guess guys like me are just screwed then, because I actually read the codex entries and pay attention... I must be a pest because I actually like to know what's going on around me.