34723 réponses à ce sujet

[o Ventus]

I'm not judging the religion, I'm judging the tenets of the religion and its holy texts. I find pretty severe flaws with being expected to follow a deity who doesn't follow his own rules. I get that he is the one who makes the rules, but it just seems a bit hypocritical to me when I'm told "thou shalt not kill", and then later told "go and murder those Egyptians, and rape their wives and take their children as slaves, but not before burning their homes and slaughtering their cows".

 

.... Which I guess is kind of the same thing, but I have no problem with Christians. A number of people in my family and a few of my close friends are Christians, I just prefer not to adhere to the faith myself. All that said, I find Christian mythology and lore fascinating, as I do with most other religions (though nothing beats the sheer metal of Buddhist myth, they have an infinite number of hells where sinners are punished by fat, red demons by throwing the damned into pits of fire and lava for eternity, and straight up cutting their ****s off and feeding them to the damned). Dante's version of Christianity, Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell from the Divine Comedy are all some of the most vivid and descriptive pieces I've ever read.

[Colonelkillabee]

My GF had me watch the video game movie version of Dante's Inferno not too long ago. It's pretty dang good to be honest. You should watch it if you haven't already.

 

Anyway, I have my issues with the text too, which is why I take everything in it, like most things, with a very large grain of salt.

[o Ventus]

My GF had me watch the video game movie version of Dante's Inferno not too long ago. It's pretty dang good to be honest. You should watch it if you haven't already.

 

Anyway, I have my issues with the text too, which is why I take everything in it, like most things, with a very large grain of salt.

 

I've played the game and have seen the movie version of Inferno. They're both really good (though the movie changes a number of things from the game, which I dislike). I've read excerpts from the Divine Comedy, and I want to get the whole collection, but that's more written text than the entire Lord of the Rings series put together.

 

edit: Okay, maybe not the entire LotR series, but pretty close.

[HK-90210]

That's actually my problem with it, the whole idea of "don't question it or challenge it, God's the one in control". It's basically saying "ahh, don't bother trying to fight against it, you have no real power".

 

@bold: That's my other big issue with it. Job and God both know that Job has done nothing wrong, yet God punishes him. And he doesn't just punish him, he makes his life a living hell, killing his family and friends, his livestock, and hideously deforming him with pus-filled boils. You say in that speech that suffering is also a release from affliction, when the one causing the affliction is the one also causing his suffering. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy that only serves to victimize Job for no good reason. Job wasn't afflicted by anything prior. Job was living a good and pious life before God intervened and took it all away from him.

 

I don't know, serving as a story that provides comfort for those who suffer seems like good reason. 'Big Picture' and all that. Part of the reason I find Job compelling is that it doesn't try to whitewash life. It doesn't try to say "Oh, if you live a righteous life, God will bless you! Please give us money.". Too many churches try to shove that lie down our throats. The Book of Job shows that living a righteous existence is no guarantee of a trouble-free life, something that most of us learn pretty early in life. Job tries to tackle that issue.

 

Not going to deny that it doesn't do a very good job of it if the reader doesn't believe in God. Again, I thought it was rubbish when I was an atheist. Didn't make any sense to me. Now, it's just another piece of the puzzle that is the Bible. It doesn't provide the whole portrait of God. But it does provide a piece.

[Colonelkillabee]

What I took from the story of Job is that regardless of what one thinks of God, whether he's perfectly benevolent or not, life is a test and no one will escape its hardships, no matter how good you are, and you should be prepared to lose everything in the blink of an eye. That's a harsh but important lesson anyone should learn, religious or not.

 

As it applies to God, only thing I can think of is that one can't expect a being that lives forever to see short term punishments as substantial when he's promising immortality and eternal salvation to those that prove worthy. Problem is, the Bible makes it seem like he would understand just why that is so fucked, and you can't have it both ways. If you believe the story.

[o Ventus]

I don't know, serving as a story that provides comfort for those who suffer seems like good reason.

 

I could buy this, if the one who provides the comfort wasn't also the one providing the suffering like God did to Job.

 

And yeah, living righteously doesn't mean one's life will be free of struggle, but having the struggle come naturally through life is one thing, it's entirely another to be happy and content and devout, when all of a sudden God says to Satan "hey, watch this, I'll **** with him and he'll still love me, just you watch" and then goes well out of his way to ruin Job's life. I don't remember the end of the book, but IIRC, Job doesn't get anything out of it. I think he gets new cattle and a new family, but everything he once had was taken away from him in the blink of an eye, just so God could prove a point to Satan. His old cows are still dead, and his wife and daughters are still murdered. 

 

It's almost as if God is saying "hey, Job, I'm going to ruin you so thoroughly and absolutely, but it's cool, I'll get you a NEW family when I'm done completely s****ing on the life you've made for yourself. I mean, you're old family will still be dead and all of your friends from your village will still be dead, but it was worth it, right?"

 

And yeah, it does provide a "piece" of God, but I would say that it's not a very good piece. Certainly not a piece that I want any part of. Having read the Old Testament, God comes across as... For lack of a better way to put it, a whiny and hypocritical *****. He tells all of his subjects to do one thing, and then goes and breaks his own rules, while shielding himself with the "suck it, I'm God" clause to absolve himself of any and all fault. I'm not going to give my time and money to a deity who doesn't seem to care about his subjects. The New Testament version of God is... Better? that's not saying much though, he didn't really leave a high bar to hit with the Old.

 

Now, if the Bible were more like this:

 

 

I could dig it.

[Colonelkillabee]

You're looking at it too literally. Or maybe not broad enough. Technically, God created all the suffering we go through today if you believe he put us here. Sure, Adam and Eve were blamed, but at the end of the day, he punished all of humanity because of their sins. So, none of the suffering is "naturally" occurring, truly. All of it is a test, whether it's done the way it was in Job's story, or you're just randomly hit by a truck.

[Hunter111]

My favorite part of the Old Testament is when some kids are mocking Elisha for being bald, and Elisha prays to God to teach them a lesson. So God sends some bears that maul all the kids.

No, I'm not making this up.

Moral of the story: don't mock bald men. I guess.

[Master Warder Z_]

Attempting to apply human morality to a being that, if He exists, is as above us as we are above plancton is pointless.
What you think of Andrastians is up to you.

Of course He is beyond us.

We are mere grains of sand on a beach, he exists above all petty mortal notions.

His words, thoughts, deeds are the will of heaven

That is what it is to be a God

[AWTEW]

Nvm Conan said it better.

[Master Warder Z_]

Poor Sensei you are merely a man...while I mired in endless pain have become much more than a man...yes I have grown from a man...into a God...

And because I'm a God; all my thoughts and words are absolute.

...Poor Sensei you are merely a man...it isn't your fault if you don't understand what I'm talking about.

Nagato sums up Divinity aptly

[Master Warder Z_]

If you are God the people beneath you are wrong, not you.

They misunderstand, misinterpret, distort

[AWTEW]

If you are God the people beneath you are wrong, not you.

They misunderstand, misinterpret, distort

Zeig zeon!

[Master Warder Z_]

o...o

And with my point on Divinity made I am slinking back to Fanfiction.net

Toodles

[Aren]

 

At any rate, in the simplest terms possibles, the Darkspawn are evil and it's our fault they exist. We pissed off the Maker and He applied a just punishment on humanity. Why is it just? 

Well the messanger does not seem to be so evil.

What is evil is the magic that is the very constitution of the taint,it doesn't belong to the darkspawn per se,but it is the heritage of the Black city,that was already corrupted,before the men came to the land Thedas.

Ancient elves  have the responsability to have corrupted that city(codex Andruil,she was obsessed by the power of  the void,what is this void is unknown),

later 7 magisters brought the corruption to the world,they have tried to reach something that doesn't even exist at the time,they were leaded by The Conductor who was unaware that the golden city if existed and created by the Maker for the elves was already gone.

I strongly believe that the Darkspawns were created on purpose by DUmat,he was aware of the existance of the black city,he never offered godhood to that godman fools of the magisters,he betrayed them and even the others Old gods.

 (the old gods maybe predate each other)

Proof is that he is not even dead

Zazikale=Corin

Toth=Loris

Andhoral=Gharael

Urthemiel=HoF

 (bioware default world state is what count the most) even if survived this dragon is irrilevant and even Banished from the world.

Is mandatory in every world state the fact that the Sentinel Warden (DAA) never killed him,who was this warden (probably a tevinterian) and why his armor was into the fade instead of Weisshaupt is unknown.

GW do not posses the tomb of DUmat slayer,but they keep this as a secret. (as usual ,wardens secrets,secrets,secrets i swear they seems to be the FBI of Thedas)

[HK-90210]

I could buy this, if the one who provides the comfort wasn't also the one providing the suffering like God did to Job.

 

Technically, God isn't the one providing the suffering. Satan is. God simply gave Satan permission to do as he pleased with all that belonged to Job, so long as he did not harm Job himself

 

Actual text in spoilers:

Spoiler

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan[b] also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” 8 And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” 9 Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? 10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” 12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

 

Not saying that it makes God look that much better than before, but it does make his complicity a little less direct. It can also be argued that the only reason that Job has so much in the first place was because of God. In fact, that was Satan's had a point, and it is a valid one. Since God had provided protection over Job and all he owned, did Job's devotion to God mean all that much? So God allows Satan to test that theory.

 

and his wife and daughters are still murdered.

 

Sons and daughters, yes. But Satan actually leaves Job's wife alive, curiously enough. It's kind of an obscure fact in the story, but Job's wife has a couple of lines in the book, just to prove she's still alive while Job is railing against God. So it can also be argued that not EVERYTHING was taken from Job.

 

I've never found the God of the Old Testament to be all that hypocritical. Harsh, unrelenting, cold-heartedly ruthless at times, most certainly. Still, I wouldn't go so far as to call him a hypocrite.

 

I do agree wholeheartedly, however, that a rap battle between Adam and Eve would totally improve the Book of Genesis. Frankly, I want to see Moses vs. Pharoah. And maybe David vs. Goliath. I'd post some made up lyrics, but I suck at writing music. Especially rap.

 

By the way, I'm thoroughly enjoying this semi-productive, totally civil conversation on religious matters. If you are not, feel free to drop the subject, and I will do likewise. It's tough to find a respective conversation about religion on the net. Gonna savor it while it lasts.

[AWTEW]

So.... do u think there will be a Cass statue?

[Merela]

So.... do u think there will be a Cass statue?

 

I sure hope so!

 

 

Source: http://phoenixforce8...lay-3-537584355

[Aren]

Poor Sensei you are merely a man...while I mired in endless pain have become much more than a man...yes I have grown from a man...into a God...

And because I'm a God; all my thoughts and words are absolute.

...Poor Sensei you are merely a man...it isn't your fault if you don't understand what I'm talking about.

Nagato sums up Divinity aptly

Poor sensei and poor Gai have trained day and night to defeat the god,but it was not enough,well at least the god will never forget the night guy,super kick.

[AWTEW]

I sure hope so!

 

 

It would take pride of place on my table. Although, it would also have to match my high standards..when it comes to statues. I saw one of the M.E ones, in person and I was not impressed..

 

Not to mention the ridicules cost of shipping from the bioware store, if ur not in NA..

[Merela]

It would take pride of place on my table. Although, it would also have to match my high standards..when it comes to statues. I saw one of the M.E ones, in person and I was not impressed..

 

Not to mention the ridicules cost of shipping from the bioware store, if ur not in NA..

 

I do not know about the ME statues, but Morrigan's one looks good. It all depends of the artist's style in the end, but I would pay for a Cass' one without baiting an eye. Though I agree the shipping costs are high. Whatever little money I gain from the dollar/euro translation is usually swallowed by the shipping.

[Andres Hendrix]

Attempting to apply human morality to a being that, if He exists, is as above us as we are above plancton is pointless.

What you think of Andrastians is up to you.
 

 

 

 

May I assume you apply the same standard to Ciri who ruins her relationship with Geralt in order to pursue the greater good?

In the first quote, you fail to grasp the contradiciton in what you say, which is disturbing (I've already explained it). I've already answered the second part. Moreover, I've already said that I will no longer re-explain myself.

[Merela]

 

Source: http://xnamasse.devi...other-538187941

[o Ventus]

Technically, God isn't the one providing the suffering. Satan is. God simply gave Satan permission to do as he pleased with all that belonged to Job, so long as he did not harm Job himself

 

That doesn't really make it any better. 

 

Not saying that it makes God look that much better than before, but it does make his complicity a little less direct. It can also be argued that the only reason that Job has so much in the first place was because of God. In fact, that was Satan's had a point, and it is a valid one. Since God had provided protection over Job and all he owned, did Job's devotion to God mean all that much? So God allows Satan to test that theory.

 

The thing though, is that God could just say "yes" and leave it at that, and there would be nothing to test. Both God and Satan knew full well that Job was a righteous and devout man. That would be like walking up to Louis Hamilton (a champion Formula 1 racing driver) and saying "yes, but we need to see how well you can drive a car."

 

Sons and daughters, yes. But Satan actually leaves Job's wife alive, curiously enough. It's kind of an obscure fact in the story, but Job's wife has a couple of lines in the book, just to prove she's still alive while Job is railing against God. So it can also be argued that not EVERYTHING was taken from Job.

 

Okay, so not *everything*, just *mostly everything*. 90% as opposed to the whole 100.

 

I've never found the God of the Old Testament to be all that hypocritical.

 

*To Moses* "Okay, look, I'm gonna help you and your buddies escape slavery from these Egyptians"

 

*After Moses and the Israelites leave Egypt* "Okay Moses, I want you to take some of your buddies and wrangle up some Egyptians to enslave. It's cool if you do it to them, since they did it to you."

 

I do agree wholeheartedly, however, that a rap battle between Adam and Eve would totally improve the Book of Genesis. Frankly, I want to see Moses vs. Pharoah. And maybe David vs. Goliath. I'd post some made up lyrics, but I suck at writing music. Especially rap.

 

There IS one for Moses vs. Santa Claus (and Moses is played by Snoop Dogg):

 

[warblewobble]

I know I'm probably late to the party on this but I love Cassandra's groans at the bear puns in Jaws of Hakkon.