34723 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

...yeah, okay, this isn't going to get anywhere. I don't want to go down the quote war rabbit hole any more than you do, and judging by your last post we were both inferring things from the other's posts that weren't meant to be inferred. How about we go back to what I was originally talking about - Ishten's opinion. Just sticking to the basics, this is what I have to say on the topic:
 

I know what you were talking about, but saying that Sera is hot has little to do with the way her hair is kept, he's most likely talking about her face, which without question is feminine.  

1. It's perfectly fine for Ishten to have a personal definition of "attractive" that Cassandra doesn't live up to.

Sure, that's true.

 

2. Plenty of people have opinions that differ from his about Cassandra's attractiveness. Unf.

Also true. 

 

3. Ishten's more general complaints about "stereotypical" attractiveness among Inquisition's love interests are unwarranted, and the insinuation of unfair treatment for heterosexual men is silly.

Not true at all, because Cassandra is literally the only love interest outside the norm, which is his complaint. I personally don't care and find Cassandra attractive enough, but he can complain all her wants when the literally the only love interest to be outside the norm and usually requested is Cassandra. Using only stereotypes, I can pick out the sexualities of everyone in the party, but for Cassandra, I'd be wrong, simply because she doesn't follow said stereotype, his point: Why must the only option that singularly heterosexual for males also the only options that falls outside of the social norm for what is feminine?  

You want to object to anything in that?

What gives you the right to say which complaints aren't warranted; the whole point of a forum is to voice your opinion. Sure it's a stupid one, no offense, but he has all the power to him to do just that. 

[Zu Long]

Where the way someone keeps their hair somehow compared to the way their face naturally formed. The way Sera keeps her hair is a personality choice. The way Cassandra's jawline grows is something her genealogy chose. 

 

Now I'm the one confused. Why would someone's level of control over their a

 

 

I know what you were talking about, but saying that Sera is hot has little to do with the way her hair is kept, he's most likely talking about her face, which without question is feminine.  

Sure, that's true.

Also true. 

Not true at all, because Cassandra is literally the only love interest outside the norm, which is his complaint. I personally don't care and find Cassandra attractive enough, but he can complain all her wants when the literally the only love interest to be outside the norm and usually requested is Cassandra. Using only stereotypes, I can pick out the sexualities of everyone in the party, but for Cassandra, I'd be wrong, simply because she doesn't follow said stereotype, his point: Why must the only option that singularly heterosexual for males also the only options that falls outside of the social norm for what is feminine?  

What gives you the right to say what he can complain about, the whole point of a forum is to voice your opinion. Sure it's a stupid one, no offense, but he has all the power to him to do just that. 

 

 

Which Bisexual stereotype is Josephine fitting into?

[Br3admax]

Now I'm the one confused. Why would someone's level of control over their a

They're saying Cassandra doesn't have the look, even physically, of what a woman looks like, on the norm. Men and woman look different, a fact of life. Sera looks pretty feminine to me. Whereas Cassandra looks like she busts skulls in her sleep.

 

 

Which Bisexual stereotype is Josephine fitting into?

Being from Antiva. 

[Zu Long]

Is that a fact? I find myself between middling to disappointed in regards to Cassandra's aesthetic. I don't spam posts about it. I suspect there are a lot more of me than there are of you. But I can't prove that either. So let's stop talking in empirical terms. 

 

In point of fact, you've posted quite a bit about it, both here and in the romance topic, as well as occasionally in the twitter thread if I recall correctly. Again, it doesn't make you wrong, but that it's a minority is pretty clear from my perspective. As for verifiable, all you have to do is read through this thread and count heads. An informal poll perhaps, but for a silly internet debate, good enough.

[Br3admax]

You do realise that pretty much anyone who comments at all is the actual minority? 

[Zu Long]

They're saying Cassandra doesn't have the look, even physically, of what a woman looks like, on the norm. Men and woman look different, a fact of life. Sera looks pretty feminine to me. Whereas Cassandra looks like she busts skulls in her sleep.

Being from Antiva. 

 

But all the women who can bust skulls in their sleep (Avaline) have been straight...

 

Also, you can tell she's from Antiva just by looking at her?

[Zu Long]

You do realise that pretty much anyone who comments at all is the actual minority? 

 

If minority samples didn't represent majority macrocosms, polling would be pretty useless. We can only base evidence on what we've observed.

[Master Warder Z_]

Hardly an accurate survey that constitutes the thoughts of the 'majority'. LOL But keep patting yourself on the back if you like.

 

I personally would mind if Bioware touched her up a bit.

[Zu Long]

Hardly an accurate survey that constitutes the thoughts of the 'majority'. LOL But keep patting yourself on the back if you like.

 

I shall. It feels quite good, and I enjoy the benefit of knowing that my own preference is the one Bioware has already decided on. It's a good feeling to know you've already won.

[Br3admax]

But all the women who can bust skulls in their sleep (Avaline) have been straight...

All two of them. Such a wide group to pick from. Aveline doesn't look masculine, however. She only behaves that way. 

 

 

Also, you can tell she's from Antiva just by looking at her?

Yeah, it's kind of obvious. 

 

If minority samples didn't represent majority macrocosms, polling would be pretty useless. We can only base evidence on what we've observed.

Polls are actually kind of pointless. That's basic statistics. They can be used when explaining design to people, mostly because most people don't question any actual numbers given to them. Take multiple races, for example, a good percent of the playerbase, and by that I mean a very overwhelming majority, ignores them. Completely. They will never touch it. But BioWare will go on about how such-and-such in this poll wanted it back so they returned them. 

[Master Warder Z_]

LOL. That's not what I gathered from the twitter thread.

 

Apparently Bioware decided they themselves think Cass could do better

[Br3admax]

I personally would mind if Bioware touched her up a bit.

Honestly, that jaw is the only thing that stands out really. Does a woman need a narrow jaw to be beautiful, no. However, there's a reason most woman today aren't sporting them so pronouncedly.  

[Master Warder Z_]

Honestly, that jaw is the only thing that stands out really. Does a woman need a narrow jaw to be beautiful, no. However, there's a reason most woman today aren't sporting them so pronouncedly.  

 

She reminds me of Panik from Yugioh ._.

 

They could be siblings!

 

Spoiler

[Zu Long]

All two of them. Such a wide group to pick from.

 

Yeah, it's kind of obvious. 

 

Polls are actually kind of pointless. That's basic statistics. They can be used when explaining design to people, mostly because most people don't question any actual numbers given to them. Take multiple races, for example, a good percent of the playerbase, and by that I mean a very overwhelming majority, ignores them. Completely. They will never touch it. But BioWare will go on about how such-and-such in this poll wanted it back so they returned them. 

 

As opposed to the three Antivans you base your Josephine is bisexual on?

 

Man, how foolish all of us in the Josephine topic must feel. Here we were when only had her picture speculating whether she would be Antivan or not, an you knew it the whole time.

 

Polls provide a basis for making decisions. Around 50% of the people who buy your game won't finish it, but that doesn't mean you skimp on the ending, as they found out in ME3. While those who desire more options might make up a minority of the people who buy the game generally, they make up a bigger chunk of the people who care deeply about it enough to buy DLC and other merchandise. Thus, through the magic of polling, Bioware can determine that appealing to that group will increase revenue. I'll let Professor Unikitty explain the fine details:

 

[Aimi]

Not true at all, because Cassandra is literally the only love interest outside the norm, which is his complaint. I personally don't care and find Cassandra attractive enough, but he can complain all her wants when the literally the only love interest to be outside the norm and usually requested is Cassandra. Using only stereotypes, I can pick out the sexualities of everyone in the party, but for Cassandra, I'd be wrong, simply because she doesn't follow said stereotype, his point: Why must the only option that singularly heterosexual for males also the only options that falls outside of the social norm for what is feminine?

Right, so that's where we disagree. You have a different understanding of "the norm" than I do.

I still think that your understanding of "the norm" is not, in fact, normal, because it relies on undefined ostensible stereotypes. I don't think that the things you think are "stereotypical" are, in fact, "stereotypical", because there are plenty of people on this forum who, unlike Br3admax, prognosticator of prognosticators, did not successfully determine the various companions' sexual orientations prior to their reveals. There was an avalanche of complaints from disappointed men when Sera turned out to be lesbian (I say "was" even though the rockslide hasn't really stopped yet); there were also groups that thought Dorian would be interested in women and Blackwall interested in men. If these stereotypes were broadcasting their sexualities so clearly, then surely such things wouldn't have happened. And there were people who correctly guessed Cassandra would be straight, too: how did they do that, if the Signs pointed somewhere other than her being straight?

In my field of study, there are a lot of academics with crappy reasoning who make sweeping generalizations about norms and stereotypes and Cultural Traits and suchlike things. They then use these generalizations to build bad arguments about the way stuff works. I don't disagree that norms and stereotypes exist; I do disagree with using them for the basis of an argument without adequately demonstrating that they exist. Otherwise, they become logic clay, able to buttress any wild claim. And there are a lot of such wild claims out there. I don't expect anybody in this thread, least of all myself, to adhere to academic standards of proof. But it would have been nice to have seen some demonstration of why these things are supposedly stereotypical in a meaningful way and therefore why Cassandra is the only non-bisexual love interest that does not adhere to these stereotypes. I haven't seen anything like that. I've seen a bunch of personal opinions and sweeping generalizations, and that's it.
 

What gives you the right to say what he can complain about, the whole point of a forum is to voice your opinion. Sure it's a stupid one, no offense, but he has all the power to him to do just that.

I can say whether I think a complaint is reasonable or not, can't I? It's an opinion that isn't actionable. I'm not going around censoring or deleting his posts or anything, not that I have the capability to do so in the first place. I'm not talking about "right". "Unwarranted" means "there is no warrant for it", i.e. there is no logical reason supporting it. I'm not a native speaker of English, so I may have to defer to you on this, but that is what that word means, right? And if so, that's a pretty accurate description of the way I've been talking so far, no? Have I said anything like "stfu"?

You're not going to change my opinion on how hot Cassandra is, obviously. I neither expect nor desire to change anybody else's opinion about that, either. The only thing that's really at issue is this thing about unfairness, something none of us in this thread have the power to change. And either way, I'm still not going to think it's unfair - it's just the difference between me expressing he personal opinion "okay, I don't think it's unfair but I understand why you think so" and expressing the personal opinion "okay, I don't think it's unfair and you're being silly". I elect to stick with the latter.

And that's all I have to say about that.

[Zu Long]

LOL. That's not what I gathered from the twitter thread.

 

*gasp* You've found me out! Yes, I'm sure that what the devs referred to as 'slightly hotter" will instantly cause everyone to do a one-eighty on their opinion. I stand terrified that minor graphical alterations will somehow ruin her for me.

[Master Warder Z_]

*gasp* You've found me out! Yes, I'm sure that what the devs referred to as 'slightly hotter" will instantly cause everyone to do a one-eighty on their opinion. I stand terrified that minor graphical alterations will somehow ruin her for me.

 

I do believe his point was that regardless of what the "majority" believes Bioware can change something if they wish to change it.

 

Their product and all.

[Giant ambush beetle]

Changes? Hope for the best, expect the worst is all I can suggest in this situation.

[HiroVoid]

So are we actually just going to keep going like this until a mod comes in warning everyone to stop, lock the thread and clean it up, and then hands out warnings/bans to everyone involved for not following the first rule?

[Zu Long]

what is this? a game? you have somehow "won"?

give me a break man let's not go there thats just childish
 

 

Yes. It is a game. Called DAI. For which I am excited, and look forward to the prospect of romancing a given character. From the point of view of having my hopes fulfilled, I have won the universe and everything in it. For those of you who are disappointed and apparently lacking in fulfillment (thus why you spend a great deal of time complaining about it on internet forums), I am sympathetic, but unremorseful.