859 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

It doesn't matter if the Asari knew what the artifact was or knew what it contained they failed to reveal it. When the galaxy is under attack with the threat of extinction, everyone needs to put aside their own wants and reveal any secret they have that might help. But the Asari, because their "special", feel they don't have to reveal anything. Its obvious they didn't care about the other species. They only cared about remaining top dog in the galaxy and only when the threat of the reapers on their doorstep do they cry wolf and reveal they have an artifact on their homeworld.

 

Wrong again. TIM got the information on the artifact from EVA CORE. Therefore EDI failed to reveal it. EDI held out on you. You cannot trust synthetics!

[themikefest]

Wrong again. TIM got the information on the artifact from EVA CORE. Therefore EDI failed to reveal it. EDI held out on you. You cannot trust synthetics!

Shepard: How did you find this place?

TIM: The Archives. Or did your Shadow Broker miss that one?

[CronoDragoon]

She grows up? Legitimate character development as opposed to "whatever the plot requires"?

She wanted to use the power for good, to help Shepard. Well Shepard may be gone, but there's still plenty more good to be done, even more than before.

 

If by "growing up" you mean abandoning her idealism, good luck with that. If the Reaper War won't do it then post-Reaper rebuilding sure won't.

 

But as I said, there's no reason to believe that the rest of the Shadow Broker's network will go along with do-gooding, especially since it's likely to cut into their business. They'll either try to kill her or a new network will form to fill the shady void. They only followed her orders during the Reaper war because it was in their best interest to do so.

[ZerebusPrime]

I liked Liara.  If anything, I thought she was underutilized in ME3.

 

....I also have similar thoughts about Kai Leng.

 

....I should go.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Right because they're supposed to leave themselves defenseless for Earth! F***ing brilliant, Massive!

 

I'm not asking them to go to Earth (unless that's where my objective lies). Don't ascribe a perspective to me unjustly. It's not true.

 

I consider it an investment. Retain military forces and use them effectively across the galaxy to further the goals and objectives trying to be accomplished. Harass and distract Reaper forces. Don't stay and fight. Hit and run. 

 

Certainly do not go to Earth because I'm whining or angsting about all the innocent people.

[Derpy]

I hate Liara because she is forced on you as you have to take her on some missions and she gets the most content while other, better characters get a lack of content due to favoritism.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I liked Liara.  If anything, I thought she was underutilized in ME3.

 

....I also have similar thoughts about Kai Leng.

 

....I should go.

 

I can respect this, but it depends on the aspects of how you look at it as well. I think Liara's appearance on the squad was grossly superfluous and unnecessary. She's the Shadow Broker. She needs to be focusing on intelligence and resource gathering for the war. She doesn't need to be on the ship in a squad mate or combat capability. She'd be better served working off-ship somewhere else helping with the war effort.

 

If you're saying that the story needed to focus more on her (which you're not saying explicitly), then I have to say, I disagree completely.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

If by "growing up" you mean abandoning her idealism, good luck with that. If the Reaper War won't do it then post-Reaper rebuilding sure won't.

 

But as I said, there's no reason to believe that the rest of the Shadow Broker's network will go along with do-gooding, especially since it's likely to cut into their business. They'll either try to kill her or a new network will form to fill the shady void. They only followed her orders during the Reaper war because it was in their best interest to do so.

 

I have her ceding her organization to Shepard and Miranda's control, and leaving to go back to a private, secluded life.

[DeinonSlayer]

Wrong again. TIM got the information on the artifact from EVA CORE. Therefore EDI failed to reveal it. EDI held out on you. You cannot trust synthetics!

You haven't addressed the point he was making. We're scouring the galaxy for the Prothean equivalent of potsherds. Asari supporters are seriously arguing that a completely intact beacon (and God-knows what else in that temple) wasn't worth looking at?

You might want to check out the post I made a few pages back. Barquiel evidently didn't want to address it.

[KaiserShep]

I like Liara, because BSN can't go on without her. Embrace eternity indeed.

[FlyingSquirrel]

If T'soni,Tali and Garrus are mandatory for their homeworlds, why isn't James mandatory for his, Earth? I know Shepard is human, but some play a colonist or spacer so some wouldn't  call Earth their home.

 

He does end up on Earth with everyone else even if he isn't in the same shuttle as Shepard or part of the squad that goes to the beam. Besides, at that point they aren't even fighting for Earth per se - it just happens to be the place where it makes sense to confront the Reapers because of the Citadel's presence.

[CrutchCricket]

Vendetta didn't know what the crucible does. The crucible plans aren't even stored on Thessia. The protheans stored the plans in three of their "old" main archives. One of these archives is on Mars, the other two were erased (explained in Liara's homeworld comic). So how exactly could Vendetta help building the crucible? Hackett described the Crucible plans as elegant, they are designed to be easy to understand. The problem is that the crucible is very big (the salarian councilor described it as a colossal undertaking) and it takes some time/ressources to build. What other information do we need? We didn't know what the catalyst is (despite having the Crucible plans with matching parts to the Citadel), that's all.

You know...there isn't a big "activate hidden VI with your prothean cypher" sign on the beacon. The asari simply didn't know that there is a hidden VI in their beacon...a VI Shepard, Javik or Shiala could activate. So why would they send Shepard or Shiala exactly? Shiala is on Feros and leads a militia of Zhu's Hope colonists. Shiala isn't a scientist. She isn't anywhere near the crucible or any prothean artifacts during the game. I mean, every citadel race has their prothean artifacts, archives or ruins. Did Shepard or Shiala study them all because maybe they could activate something with their cipher? There are vast prothean ruins on Kahje...who knows how many things Shep could activate there

And the information to jump your civilization forward a few centuries is also free on Mars. Humans studied the Mars archives for 30 years and they didn't find anything about the reapers (you need special encryption keys here). Nihlus says all galactic civilizations are based on Prothean technology. Every race has their prothean beacons/archives and they never found anything about the reapers or the crucible. You get technology, but not the crucible blueprints or the reaper warnings. It's stupid, but the game makes this crystal clear and doesn't really leave any room for speculation. I guess it is possible the asari (or the other races) have been deriving their technological head start simply from studying the operation of the beacon, rather than actually accessing the information it contained. That's still the most likely explanation imo.

 

Vendetta has information about a "catalyst" whatever that is but not information on what the Catalyst is supposed to run? Please. That's like saying "Here's a Windows disk. What's a computer, you ask? Fucked if I know!" It's ridiculous. And even if that were the case, this beacon is the thing that jumped asari civilization centuries. Now what could've done that? Bigger, better eezo cores? More efficient fuel intakes? Some other as yet unknown general application technological advancement? And you mean to tell me that none of these would help, either in the Crucible directly or with the war effort in general? Here we are on the Normandy wasting time and risking surprise buttsecks by the Reapers to scan random planets for things like advanced starship fuel and "interferometric arrays" while the asari are sitting on their little beacon going "yep, not a damn thing we can offer to help, nope, don't look at us"

 

Beacons are implied to be different from ruins or archives. By their very definition beacons are meant to attract attention and communicate. So yeah if you've got one and you know that in the past people with a certain cipher were able to get information from them about a threat that's now breathing down your neck, you want those people to take a look and see if there's anything there that can help. Even if you want to continue being a secretive tool and not go outside your species you get the one asari who does have the cipher to look into it or to share with with someone who will.

 

And wow, the Mars Archives are totally not the same thing. For one they're available publicly according to the law the now proven hypocritical asari have laid down. Secondly they're part of an observation center and not a direct uplift operation- which makes a huge difference in what data is on there and how it's accessible. And since it's clearly implied the technological superiority of the asari is directly linked to said uplift and to the study of that beacon, it's obvious that it contains more information than the other Prothean sites around the galaxy.

 

So no, there is no excuse. Whereas before I could understand the reasons for keeping it secret in order to gain an advantage (it's what anybody would've done) once the war started all that went out the window.

 

Right because they're supposed to leave themselves defenseless for Earth! F***ing brilliant, Massive!

 

Fat lot of good their defense did them. Zing!

 

 

But as I said, there's no reason to believe that the rest of the Shadow Broker's network will go along with do-gooding, especially since it's likely to cut into their business. They'll either try to kill her or a new network will form to fill the shady void. They only followed her orders during the Reaper war because it was in their best interest to do so.

 

The rest of the Shadow Broker network is isolated agents who will do what they're told. Don't be fooled by every named character and their mother suddenly knowing Liara is the Broker. Random agents on planet buttfuck nowhere are just as clueless as they were before.

 

I have her ceding her organization to Shepard and Miranda's control, and leaving to go back to a private, secluded life.

 

Why do that when she can have both?

[Barquiel]

You haven't addressed the point he was making. We're scouring the galaxy for the Prothean equivalent of potsherds. Asari supporters are seriously arguing that a completely intact beacon (and God-knows what else in that archive) wasn't worth looking at?

You might want to check out the post I made a few pages back. Barquiel evidently didn't want to address it.

 

I didn't adress your last post because you made things up, and it's contradicted by what we're told in-game. As much as I wanted to have Shiala playing a bigger role, she didn't share the cipher with any Crucible scientists. And Shepard never studies any prothean artifacts or even the archives on Mars because she could activate something with her cipher. After Shep activated vendetta, there's no dialogue that implies revealing the beacon (it's a beacon, not an archive btw) earlier would have changed a thing and there's no dialogue that implies that the asari councilor knew about the beacon. The game tells you (multiple times) that the asari couldn't properly activate the beacon, Vendetta was programmed to withold the relevant information and Tevos was just informed by the matriarchs. That why you can't blame her personally after Thessia, it's as simple as that.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Why do that when she can have both?

 

I think it's because Liara doesn't have the right mentality to maintain the Shadow Broker network, something which requires things like assassinations to keep the wheels spinning. It does seem to be a network that is driven by profit and self interest rather than furthering the needs of the galaxy, at least as far as the operatives seem to be concerned. If the Broker goes soft we can be reasonably sure that individual agents will split off as that will serve their own interests better.

 

Of course Paragons can't do no wrong and the organization will probably transform into some Robin Hood like group in which case Liara would be perfect. But I think the point of what Massively is saying is that if the organization remains the same Miranda who is much more Renegade (for lack of a better word) than Liara can better maintain and use it.

[eyezonlyii]

It really depends on which Liara we're talking about though. mE2 Liara could do it. me and ME3 Liara would have a hard time.

[ImaginaryMatter]

It really depends on which Liara we're talking about though. mE2 Liara could do it. me and ME3 Liara would have a hard time.

 

I don't even know. Liara's personality changes whenever she's brought up in a different story.

[eyezonlyii]

I get it now! Asari physiology makes them attractive to everyone, so maybe their personality bends to make them attractive to any plot!

[CrutchCricket]

I think it's because Liara doesn't have the right mentality to maintain the Shadow Broker network, something which requires things like assassinations to keep the wheels spinning. It does seem to be a network that is driven by profit and self interest rather than furthering the needs of the galaxy, at least as far as the operatives seem to be concerned. If the Broker goes soft we can be reasonably sure that individual agents will split off as that will serve their own interests better.

 

Of course Paragons can't do no wrong and the organization will probably transform into some Robin Hood like group in which case Liara would be perfect. But I think the point of what Massively is saying is that if the organization remains the same Miranda who is much more Renegade (for lack of a better word) than Liara can better maintain and use it.

 

The Shadow Broker operated by trading sensitive information to and from everyone in order to keep himself on top and keep everyone else fairly stable and even. I kind of doubt the random agents doing the grunt work could see (or really care) about this bigger picture. No reason to think they'll start now.

 

I don't see Liara running it in a vacuum but I don't see her stepping down either. She'll work with Miranda, EDI and others to create a new organization for a safe and secure society.

[eyezonlyii]

Let's not forget that the Shadow Broker isn't the only information broker in he galaxy...

 

In the words of Kasumi, "I'm the best. Not the most well known."

[CrutchCricket]

Let's not forget that the Shadow Broker isn't the only information broker in he galaxy...

 

In the words of Kasumi, "I'm the best. Not the most well known."

 

He is implied to be the biggest fish in town as far as information brokering goes. That's not to say that in the chaos there won't be rivals.

[eyezonlyii]

He is implied to be the biggest fish in town as far as information brokering goes. That's not to say that in the chaos there won't be rivals.

 

Apparently still number two to Cerberus who stole sensitive data about Thessia right from the Alliance/Council noses, who also knew about Eve on Tuchanka and was even able to instigate a Citadel wide coup with sleeper agents. I mean really, WTF was Liara doing the entire time on the Normandy?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

The Shadow Broker operated by trading sensitive information to and from everyone in order to keep himself on top and keep everyone else fairly stable and even. I kind of doubt the random agents doing the grunt work could see (or really care) about this bigger picture. No reason to think they'll start now.

 

I don't see Liara running it in a vacuum but I don't see her stepping down either. She'll work with Miranda, EDI and others to create a new organization for a safe and secure society.

 

Still, I think Liara might also be a bit disillusioned. Yeah, I'll be honest, I don't think she has the mentality for what it takes for the job. I'm not saying I agree that individual agents will be able to move on successfully. I'm saying that I think Liara will decide that the job isn't for her anymore. She'll go back to her life as a Prothean expert and archaeologist. That, and my Shepard won't let her continue. He needs the assets for his group, and he'll take it. Even if it means betraying and possible killing her for it. 

 

I don't see why she would stay on to be honest.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Apparently still number two to Cerberus who stole sensitive data about Thessia right from the Alliance/Council noses, who also knew about Eve on Tuchanka and was even able to instigate a Citadel wide coup with sleeper agents. I mean really, WTF was Liara doing the entire time on the Normandy?

 

Spying on Shepard.

[themikefest]

 That why you can't blame her personally after Thessia, it's as simple as that.

If anything she should say I apoligize for my government for not revealing this earlier.

 

It was wrong for Shepard to say I'm sorry when it wasn't her/his fault at all. Its as simple as that.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I get it now! Asari physiology makes them attractive to everyone, so maybe their personality bends to make them attractive to any plot!

 

I can imagine the plots of ME1, ME2, and ME3 sitting around a table with a stripper Liara on it.

 

ME1: "She's clearly a Paragon. See how blue she is, oh, so blue...

ME2: "1, stop idealizing her virgin naiveness."

ME1: "...oh, right. Sorry. Any way she's blue. Paragon's are blue. Asari are blue. The imagery is as clear as day, they're incapable of being wrong."

ME3: "I know what you mean. They are just so huggable, I love them so much. I am totally a white knight, blue knight for them."

ME2: "What? I wouldn't take that kind of crap. Liara should be bold, no palling around alien ruins. They should be threatening people with mind flays and singularities. Something covert like Jack Ryan or something. She is after all everyones' friend, it will totally be awesome!"

ME3: "That's a pretty cool idea, she should be all like callous when shooting people, but not be afraid to be sensitive. Look at the way she's walking, that is sexy, imagine her doing that after she shoots some guys."

ME1: "That does sound cool, but how does she change so much?"

Liara: "You boys having a bad day? Don't think so hard, I can be anything you want me to be."

Together: "Perfect."