859 réponses à ce sujet

[von uber]

Spying on Shepard.

 

That was Miranda, using the Cerberus installed suverillance.

Or Zaeed.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

That was Miranda, using the Cerberus installed suverillance.

Or Zaeed.

 

Miranda at least had a goal in mind with watching Shepard. Liara meanwhile was doing 'stuff', while missing many of the key issues and red flags that it was her business to see.

[Barquiel]

I think it's because Liara doesn't have the right mentality to maintain the Shadow Broker network, something which requires things like assassinations to keep the wheels spinning. It does seem to be a network that is driven by profit and self interest rather than furthering the needs of the galaxy, at least as far as the operatives seem to be concerned. If the Broker goes soft we can be reasonably sure that individual agents will split off as that will serve their own interests better.

 

I think she could give Feron the reins over the network. But Liara describes it as a 'dream job'. She obviously enjoys being the Shadow Broker ("although the location could be better..."), but I guess it's not something she necessarily would want to do for 800+ years. She might not start killing innocents to protect the exclusivity of her information, but we saw how Liara dealt with customers who did not want to pay for example. And the old SB was not inherently evil either. His operation has run smoothly for decades. For example it's implied by Feron in ME Redemption that the SB's deal with the Collectors was atypical of him (Feron was shocked when he found out about it).

[CrutchCricket]

Apparently still number two to Cerberus who stole sensitive data about Thessia right from the Alliance/Council noses, who also knew about Eve on Tuchanka and was even able to instigate a Citadel wide coup with sleeper agents. I mean really, WTF was Liara doing the entire time on the Normandy?

 

Yes well... Cerberus gets as powerful or as dumb as the plot requires even more than Liara's personality.

 

Still, I think Liara might also be a bit disillusioned. Yeah, I'll be honest, I don't think she has the mentality for what it takes for the job. I'm not saying I agree that individual agents will be able to move on successfully. I'm saying that I think Liara will decide that the job isn't for her anymore. She'll go back to her life as a Prothean expert and archaeologist. That, and my Shepard won't let her continue. He needs the assets for his group, and he'll take it. Even if it means betraying and possible killing her for it. 

 

I don't see why she would stay on to be honest.

 

Suffice to say I disagree. I don't see why she'd be disillusioned. The improbable jump from innocent and naive archeologist to ruthless information broker has already been made. There's no going back regardless of how inconsistently her demeanor is portrayed. Personally I'm going way bigger with it.

 

And why would you kill her if she freely offers to help you?

 

I think she could give Feron the reins over the network. But Liara describes it as a 'dream job'. She obviously enjoys being the Shadow Broker ("although the location could be better..."), but I guess it's not something she necessarily would want to do for 800+ years. She might not start killing innocents to protect the exclusivity of her information, but we saw how Liara dealt with customers who did not want to pay for example. And the old SB was not inherently evil either. His operation has run smoothly for decades. For example it's implied by Feron in ME Redemption that the SB's deal with the Collectors was atypical of him (Feron was shocked when he found out about it).

 

Err. I'd rather see Feron in Space Alaska, i.e. a ****** assignment in the middle of nowhere. But I agree with the rest

[CronoDragoon]

She might not start killing innocents to protect the exclusivity of her information, but we saw how Liara dealt with customers who did not want to pay for example.

 

She threatened them and did nothing about it, later telling Shepard that was just an act to keep up a tough appearance. She just doesn't have the stomach to do what the Shadow Broker's role in the galaxy dictates she does.

[CrutchCricket]

She threatened them and did nothing about it, later telling Shepard that was just an act to keep up a tough appearance. She just doesn't have the stomach to do what the Shadow Broker's role in the galaxy dictates she does.

 

If she's smart that's all she'll need.

 

Well that and maybe someone to do the dirty work for her when it does become necessary.

[CronoDragoon]

Well that and maybe someone to do the dirty work for her when it does become necessary.

 

She doesn't have it in her to give that order.

 

I think David's right in this case. She breaks down at the end of Shadow Broker after Feron is rescued and the Broker dead. Her tough-guy act dissipated immediately and was never seen again. It's not who she really is.

[CrutchCricket]

She doesn't have it in her to give that order.

 

I think David's right in this case. She breaks down at the end of Shadow Broker after Feron is rescued and the Broker dead. Her tough-guy act dissipated immediately and was never seen again. It's not who she really is.

 

See: Mars.

 

Once you kill in cold-blood like that it ceases to be an act. And by that I'm referring to Nyxeris, not just the mooks on Mars (though they could count as well). You may break down. Not everyone goes from innocent to stone-cold killer instantly with no in-between. But what's done is done. You're changed. Forever.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Because they're willing to act when the Asari won't. 

 

Depends on the system of ethics and morality you subscribe to. I'm a consequentialist and pragmatist. So naturally, I'm not going to  care about methods as long as they produce results.

What the hell does Cerberus do that in any way benefits anyone? The only single beneficial act they ever did was somehow bring Shepard back to life. EVERY single thing else they did was horrible for everyone. Injecting thresher maw venom into Alliance marines, trying to create Rachni shock troopers, killing an Alliance admiral, trying and failing to control the Geth and almost releasing a rogue AI on the galaxy, torturing and experimenting on young children, taking crucible data away from the Allied war efforts(maybe the info about the catalyst was in the Mars, but Cerberus took it), attacking a school in order to experiment on the biotics there, trying to stop the Krogan-Turian alliance by destroying half of Tuchanka, attempting a coup on the Citadel in order for the fleets to be sent to Earth, ensuring defeat, and slaughtering and experimenting on millions of refugees do not count as "beneficial to the war effort." 

Who cares if they act? They acted WRONG. The Reapers act. Does that make them better than the Asari?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Suffice to say I disagree. I don't see why she'd be disillusioned. The improbable jump from innocent and naive archeologist to ruthless information broker has already been made. There's no going back regardless of how inconsistently her demeanor is portrayed. Personally I'm going way bigger with it.

 

And why would you kill her if she freely offers to help you?

 

And I'm not going way bigger with it. I honestly think she'd be best not associated with the actions of the group, considering that it will, to be frank, doing the cold, dark, 'evil' experiments and work that she's not psychologically suited to performing.

 

I never said I would kill her. I only said that if she decided not to be helpful with the transition. In which case, she wouldn't be freely helping me. That said, I do want control of her resources. Complete control.

[von uber]

 

I never said I would kill her. I only said that if she decided not to be helpful with the transition. In which case, she wouldn't be freely helping me. That said, I do want control of her assets. Complete control.

 

So it comes out at last.

 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

What the hell does Cerberus do that in any way benefits anyone? The only single beneficial act they ever did was somehow bring Shepard back to life. EVERY single thing else they did was horrible for everyone. Injecting thresher maw venom into Alliance marines, trying to create Rachni shock troopers, killing an Alliance admiral, trying and failing to control the Geth and almost releasing a rogue AI on the galaxy, torturing and experimenting on young children, taking crucible data away from the Allied war efforts(maybe the info about the catalyst was in the Mars, but Cerberus took it), attacking a school in order to experiment on the biotics there, trying to stop the Krogan-Turian alliance by destroying half of Tuchanka, attempting a coup on the Citadel in order for the fleets to be sent to Earth, ensuring defeat, and slaughtering and experimenting on millions of refugees do not count as "beneficial to the war effort." 

Who cares if they act? They acted WRONG. The Reapers act. Does that make them better than the Asari?

 

Hmm, I thought they came up with a powerful weaponized venom?

 

Controllable Rachni shock troops are a good idea. They're a damn great idea. If they could be controlled, they'd be an enormous asset on the battlefield. 

 

Said alliance Admiral was a threat to their organization. I'd want to shut him too if he found out my dirty laundry. That said, since I'm a Spectre, I'd just do it publicly to send a message.

 

Actually, they did manage to control the Geth. The source of their ability was simply too unstable. I'll chalk that one up to an executional failure, even though it was proved to be a sound concept.

 

And said torture and experimenting on children created the uber-powerful biotic. Again, an executional failure, with not enough control in place over the test subjects. Otherwise, they're definitely on to something.

 

Yeah, I'll admit, taking away Crucible data (especially given their current state in the game) was pretty bad. However, if they were not indoctrinated, I'd probably be handing them the plans to the Crucible myself.

 

Sounds good to me. Good source of biotics that are young, impressionable, and most importantly, powerful. Assert some kind of control, and you'd have a small but devastatingly powerful army of biotic supersoldiers. What's not to like about that?

 

I disagree with their actions in the context of the situation. However, if there was no war, I'd let them go ahead and blow the bomb. The Turians did right by putting it there. Insurance is pretty useful against the savages.

 

That was Udina, not Cerberus. Cerberus plans for the Citadel were never stipulated, so I can't comment on them. 

 

And lastly, yes, the refugees were nothing, nothing, but a complete drain on valuable resources. I'm outraged that they wouldn't be fighting. I'd probably let the Reapers kill them if there wasn't a danger of them becoming a husk, indoctrinated, or harvested into another Reaper. However, I can make use of them in death, more use than they ever could be in life. There is no room for innocents and civilians in this war. You either contribute to the war, or you get cast aside to die. I will not waste the resources, precious resources, on people who will do nothing to contribute. The experiments done there could have been useful. Had TIM not been indoctrinated, I'd have inspected the place, watched it, and left telling the people running it to keep up the good work. And the Asari aren't contributing. They deserve every bit of death that comes to them.

 

Devil's Advocate? Perhaps, but I hate moralistic 'right/wrong' arguments. They're bullshit. I don't care what's right or wrong. I only care about stopping the Reapers. I'll do what I have to do in that regard. Necessity knows no law. I don't even hate them. They're following their nature, I'm following mine. Our existences are incompatible. It's a legitimate conflict of interest. 

 

Deontological advocacy for objective morality is childish in my opinion.

[KaiserShep]

Controllable rachni. Haven't these goons watched Alien?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Controllable rachni. Haven't these goons watched Alien?

 

Why is it impossible? 

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Yeah, Cerberus is an incompetent organization, who never actually helped the war effort. 
 

You say results are what matter. They didn't produce any good results. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Yeah, Cerberus is an incompetent organization, who never actually helped the war effort. 
 

You say results are what matter. They didn't produce any good results. 

 

I just listed what their results were. What's not good about them?

 

And of course. They were indoctrinated. Kind of hard to contribute when you've been brainwashed by the Reapers. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I'm not asking them to go to Earth (unless that's where my objective lies). Don't ascribe a perspective to me unjustly. It's not true.

 

I consider it an investment. Retain military forces and use them effectively across the galaxy to further the goals and objectives trying to be accomplished. Harass and distract Reaper forces. Don't stay and fight. Hit and run. 

 

Certainly do not go to Earth because I'm whining or angsting about all the innocent people.

 

Which is exactly what they were doing with their fleets, and according to the Wikia and Codex they were having success with those tactics. That's the way Asari fight: hit hard and run. The Reapers were having trouble with them. Then the Reapers decided to simply bypass the fleets and land. There simply weren't enough ships to do enough damage.

 

Unfortunately the game didn't make enough of a deal out of this. 

[KaiserShep]

Why is it impossible?

Not that it's impossible, but being possible and being a good idea don't always go hand in hand. Cerberus already failed in its attempt to control them. Heck even the far more advanced protheans didn't do so well in that endeavor. The rachni are far too volatile to make a viable bioweapon.

Cerberus excels at thinking outside the box and do have great breakthroughs, but they sure like to fly a little too close to the sun. In the end, it destroyed them. To their credit, they did make one great contribution, which did save everyone in the end, but they almost undid it all too.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

I just listed what their results were. What's not good about them?

 

And of course. They were indoctrinated. Kind of hard to contribute when you've been brainwashed by the Reapers. 

They failed to make Rachni shock troops. 

Killing Kahoku only hurt humanity. 

They failed to control the Geth. The people who did try got massacred, by their own project. 

Their "uber-powerful" biotic went on to kill all the people who helped create her, and became a mass-murdering psycopath. That's a failure. 

They failed to get those weak biotics children. 

They failed to detonate the bomb. 

They failed. 

[von uber]

They also failed to destroy whatever gravitational device was implanted in Miranda's arse that made the camera fixate on it.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Shepard: How did you find this place?

TIM: The Archives. Or did your Shadow Broker miss that one?

 

Again, so Liara may have missed it. Eva Core, an AI, did not. EDI an AI who interfaced with Eva Core and got all of the data that Eva Core had, did.

 

It was a plot thing. TIM showed up at Mars to distract Shepard and Liara so that his robot could download all that information and "erase" the beacon. Why EDI didn't get access is another matter.

 

But people want to blame Liara for everything. Go ahead.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

They failed to make Rachni shock troops. 

Killing Kahoku only hurt humanity. 

They failed to control the Geth. The people who did try got massacred, by their own project. 

Their "uber-powerful" biotic went on to kill all the people who helped create her, and became a mass-murdering psycopath. That's a failure. 

They failed to get those weak biotics children. 

They failed to detonate the bomb. 

They failed. 

 

Sure, they failed there. That said, it's still a bold initiative. They found more success with controllable Thorian Creepers and Husks.

 

And Kahoku shouldn't have been poking his nose were it didn't belong. I don't see how it hurt humanity with his death though.

 

They still proved it was possible in principle. Had it not been such a tramautic implementation method for David Archer, it probably would be a success.

 

Hmm, I though she was an important and valuable member of the team that took down the Collectors...

 

And they certainly got a hold of the biotic students. Screw Grissom Academy, I have bigger fish to fry.

 

Also, the bomb totally blew up. And I ended up destroying the genophage anyway. The Krogan are a menace. The galaxy will be a better place with them gone.

 

Seems pretty successful to me.

[rekn2]

I'm not asking them to go to Earth (unless that's where my objective lies). Don't ascribe a perspective to me unjustly. It's not true.

 

I consider it an investment. Retain military forces and use them effectively across the galaxy to further the goals and objectives trying to be accomplished. Harass and distract Reaper forces. Don't stay and fight. Hit and run. 

 

Certainly do not go to Earth because I'm whining or angsting about all the innocent people.

of course thats not how you as massively feels. everyone on this board knows this...however, thats exactly what every shep is scripted with saying. drop what your doing (palaven, thessia, everyone) and come help earth. rediculous, contrived, poorly written, who in their right mind would do such a thing?

 

blah blah blah this has been discussed into the ground.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Sure, they failed there. That said, it's still a bold initiative. They found more success with controllable Thorian Creepers and Husks.

 

And Kahoku shouldn't have been poking his nose were it didn't belong. I don't see how it hurt humanity with his death though.

 

They still proved it was possible in principle. Had it not been such a tramautic implementation method for David Archer, it probably would be a success.

 

Hmm, I though she was an important and valuable member of the team that took down the Collectors...

 

And they certainly got a hold of the biotic students. Screw Grissom Academy, I have bigger fish to fry.

 

Also, the bomb totally blew up. And I ended up destroying the genophage anyway. The Krogan are a menace. The galaxy will be a better place with them gone.

 

Seems pretty successful to me.

It wasn't a success. If the only way to control the Geth is to torture the man who would control them to the point where he wants you dead, then it's not possible. 

They didn't intend that. That wasn't part of the project. 

Well, most people did. 

The Krogan clans came with 300 war assets. They hindered the war effort. 

Remember this, no matter what Cerberus did, the Salarians won the Reaper War. Earth is still more or lessed destroyed after being occupied for a couple months, the human colonies are practically all burned, and Humanity no longer has any infrastructure to rebuild. If Cerberus' end goal was to help humanity above the other races, they failed. If they hadn't taken away the catalyst's location both times, the Alliance would still have a fleet and Earth would've been saved a lot sooner. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

of course thats not how you as massively feels. everyone on this board knows this...however, thats exactly what every shep is scripted with saying. drop what your doing (palaven, thessia, everyone) and come help earth. rediculous, contrived, poorly written, who in their right mind would do such a thing?

 

blah blah blah this has been discussed into the ground.

 

I know this. However, I think her intent with her statement was directed at me personally.