859 réponses à ce sujet

[Invisible Man]

it's a good thing a like discussing stuff.

[dgcatanisiri]

Liara has become a convenient scapegoat for a lot of problems in the series, mostly because of the railroading with her character - you literally cannot complete any of the games without her involvement (in 1, she's the only one who can tell you about Ilos, in 2, while Thane and Samara are not necessary, you cannot get them without speaking to Liara, and in 3, she's a required squadmate on three Primary missions, four including From Ashes), her friendship is played up consistently with Shepard in large part because she is a guaranteed variable, not able to be killed at any point other than the end run of 3 where it has no effect on the story (and you pretty much have to screw over the galaxy to do so), and that she is effectively the most important non-Shepard character in the series.

 

Ultimately, it's a symptom of the writing team writing three separate games and calling them a trilogy, rather than writing a three act trilogy, with each act being a single game. The Virmire decision was a great emotional gutpunch to the player, but now there are two mutually exclusive characters filling the same role while being different individuals, which means that, even if it's not necessarily in-character, they HAVE to cover similar ground, are effectively forced to become interchangeable. The 'dirty dozen' aspect of ME2 allowed for more world-building, but the overarching plot was ignored for the sake of building up these characters. These characters are also all potentially dead at the end of 2, courtesy of the Suicide Mission, which means that all twelve of them have to be written around in 3, despite any potential involvement they could have, because the plot has to continue to function. Liara bears the brunt of the hate come 3 because she's written more as an emotional stand-in for these potentially dead characters, so the moment someone plays a game where they AREN'T dead, she's suddenly standing in for characters who could stand for themselves.

 

It doesn't help that it is a character trait that she effectively becomes obsessed with Shepard, in love with them regardless of what the player says or does. She enshrines Shepard on a pedestal from pretty much the moment she meets them, and refuses to let them be knocked from that place. In her first conversation, she effectively says 'I'm not that interesting, let's talk more about how amazing you are.' All the other romance options in the series ask for Shepard to work at building a relationship with them. Liara throws her interest at Shepard, and repeatedly so. If you're doing a full trilogy run, and you turn her down in 1, she's still holding a torch for Shepard by the time of 3. While we can turn her down, we can do nothing to have Shepard dislodged from that pedestal in her eyes. This is despite the fact that she will argue and butt heads with Javik all through 3, while Shepard can be played as believing and agreeing with Javik every step of the way, and get nothing in response from her.

 

Like I said at the start, she's ultimately a symptom of the overall problem, but she's also one of the most visible symptoms. Since the other symptoms are more along the lines of auto-dialogue or railroaded actions, as opposed to her existence as a character in the series who is perceived as benefiting from the attention, Liara is a convenient scapegoat for the problems at the writing level with how they (didn't) plan things out going in to the series.

[Farangbaa]

Liara is awesome.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Liara has become a convenient scapegoat for a lot of problems in the series, mostly because of the railroading with her character - you literally cannot complete any of the games without her involvement (in 1, she's the only one who can tell you about Ilos, in 2, while Thane and Samara are not necessary, you cannot get them without speaking to Liara, and in 3, she's a required squadmate on three Primary missions, four including From Ashes), her friendship is played up consistently with Shepard in large part because she is a guaranteed variable, not able to be killed at any point other than the end run of 3 where it has no effect on the story (and you pretty much have to screw over the galaxy to do so), and that she is effectively the most important non-Shepard character in the series.

 

Ultimately, it's a symptom of the writing team writing three separate games and calling them a trilogy, rather than writing a three act trilogy, with each act being a single game. The Virmire decision was a great emotional gutpunch to the player, but now there are two mutually exclusive characters filling the same role while being different individuals, which means that, even if it's not necessarily in-character, they HAVE to cover similar ground, are effectively forced to become interchangeable. The 'dirty dozen' aspect of ME2 allowed for more world-building, but the overarching plot was ignored for the sake of building up these characters. These characters are also all potentially dead at the end of 2, courtesy of the Suicide Mission, which means that all twelve of them have to be written around in 3, despite any potential involvement they could have, because the plot has to continue to function. Liara bears the brunt of the hate come 3 because she's written more as an emotional stand-in for these potentially dead characters, so the moment someone plays a game where they AREN'T dead, she's suddenly standing in for characters who could stand for themselves.

 

It doesn't help that it is a character trait that she effectively becomes obsessed with Shepard, in love with them regardless of what the player says or does. She enshrines Shepard on a pedestal from pretty much the moment she meets them, and refuses to let them be knocked from that place. In her first conversation, she effectively says 'I'm not that interesting, let's talk more about how amazing you are.' All the other romance options in the series ask for Shepard to work at building a relationship with them. Liara throws her interest at Shepard, and repeatedly so. If you're doing a full trilogy run, and you turn her down in 1, she's still holding a torch for Shepard by the time of 3. While we can turn her down, we can do nothing to have Shepard dislodged from that pedestal in her eyes. This is despite the fact that she will argue and butt heads with Javik all through 3, while Shepard can be played as believing and agreeing with Javik every step of the way, and get nothing in response from her.

 

Like I said at the start, she's ultimately a symptom of the overall problem, but she's also one of the most visible symptoms. Since the other symptoms are more along the lines of auto-dialogue or railroaded actions, as opposed to her existence as a character in the series who is perceived as benefiting from the attention, Liara is a convenient scapegoat for the problems at the writing level with how they (didn't) plan things out going in to the series.

 

This has been stated innumerable times, but I think you've said it with the best amount of frankness yet. You got the point across well, and effectively.

 

Now, the only thing left to be seen is David inevitably coming on here and horribly misinterpreting your argument (intentionally I should mention), and making a grossly inaccurate strawman. Because you just know he's going to do it.

[KaiserShep]

Liara has become a convenient scapegoat for a lot of problems in the series, mostly because of the railroading with her character - you literally cannot complete any of the games without her involvement (in 1, she's the only one who can tell you about Ilos, in 2, while Thane and Samara are not necessary, you cannot get them without speaking to Liara, and in 3, she's a required squadmate on three Primary missions, four including From Ashes), her friendship is played up consistently with Shepard in large part because she is a guaranteed variable, not able to be killed at any point other than the end run of 3 where it has no effect on the story (and you pretty much have to screw over the galaxy to do so), and that she is effectively the most important non-Shepard character in the series.

 

Ultimately, it's a symptom of the writing team writing three separate games and calling them a trilogy, rather than writing a three act trilogy, with each act being a single game. The Virmire decision was a great emotional gutpunch to the player, but now there are two mutually exclusive characters filling the same role while being different individuals, which means that, even if it's not necessarily in-character, they HAVE to cover similar ground, are effectively forced to become interchangeable. The 'dirty dozen' aspect of ME2 allowed for more world-building, but the overarching plot was ignored for the sake of building up these characters. These characters are also all potentially dead at the end of 2, courtesy of the Suicide Mission, which means that all twelve of them have to be written around in 3, despite any potential involvement they could have, because the plot has to continue to function. Liara bears the brunt of the hate come 3 because she's written more as an emotional stand-in for these potentially dead characters, so the moment someone plays a game where they AREN'T dead, she's suddenly standing in for characters who could stand for themselves.

 

It doesn't help that it is a character trait that she effectively becomes obsessed with Shepard, in love with them regardless of what the player says or does. She enshrines Shepard on a pedestal from pretty much the moment she meets them, and refuses to let them be knocked from that place. In her first conversation, she effectively says 'I'm not that interesting, let's talk more about how amazing you are.' All the other romance options in the series ask for Shepard to work at building a relationship with them. Liara throws her interest at Shepard, and repeatedly so. If you're doing a full trilogy run, and you turn her down in 1, she's still holding a torch for Shepard by the time of 3. While we can turn her down, we can do nothing to have Shepard dislodged from that pedestal in her eyes. This is despite the fact that she will argue and butt heads with Javik all through 3, while Shepard can be played as believing and agreeing with Javik every step of the way, and get nothing in response from her.

 

Like I said at the start, she's ultimately a symptom of the overall problem, but she's also one of the most visible symptoms. Since the other symptoms are more along the lines of auto-dialogue or railroaded actions, as opposed to her existence as a character in the series who is perceived as benefiting from the attention, Liara is a convenient scapegoat for the problems at the writing level with how they (didn't) plan things out going in to the series.

 

Looking at this, I can see how Mass Effect would really benefit from something akin to an approval system, where characters might interact with you differently based on how you treated them prior, or how they reacted to certain choices you made in their presence. Without it, the writers can't effectively create different ways for the character to react to your presence outside of whether or nor you romanced him/her. With Liara, such a system would allow her to be somewhat curt if you were hostile, friendly if you weren't, or more amorous if pursued as an LI prior.

[wiccame]

Every time she opens her mouth I, to quote Javik, 'want to throw her out the air lock'. Her voice really grates on my nerves.

It doesn't help that to me, she seems to fulfil the gentle soul, needs protecting from everything bad role. She's 103-106, how much protecting does she need?!

 

The Asari in general are my most hated race. They're too arrogant and self important.  They sit out out the war in me3 until precious Thessia is vulnerable for the first time in history, and we all need to rally round and protect this great civilisation from falling, because they are more important than everyone else. 

 

Thessia falls and the entire crew have to pussyfoot round Liara's feelings, but earth was devastated and its business as usual. 

I still get angry at the 'next time we go to war maybe the Alliance can provide air support'. yeah like where were the Asari when Earth got hit?

[Xilizhra]

I really don't think anything needs to be said, apart from "Haters gonna hate." Which they clearly will. It's not like we need to care.

 

The Asari in general are my most hated race. They're too arrogant and self important.  They sit out out the war in me3 until precious Thessia is vulnerable for the first time in history, and we all need to rally round and protect this great civilisation from falling, because they are more important than everyone else.

Factually wrong. They join after the Citadel coup, along with the salarians if you cured the genophage, which is immediately after the krogan and turians and before the geth and quarians.

[KaiserShep]

The Asari in general are my most hated race. They're too arrogant and self important.  They sit out out the war in me3 until precious Thessia is vulnerable for the first time in history, and we all need to rally round and protect this great civilisation from falling, because they are more important than everyone else.

 

Ironically, they contribute to the war effort sooner than the salarians do, who hold out on you a bit longer if you cure the genophage. It also helps that they are also a more substantial force than the salarians as well.

 

EDIT: If I remember correctly, how soon the salarians throw in support depends on whether or not Kirrahe or Thane are around to help save the salarian councilor.

 

 

I still get angry at the 'next time we go to war maybe the Alliance can provide air support'. yeah like where were the Asari when Earth got hit?

 

Thinking about it, the Normandy is equipped with two UT-47A Kodiaks, and they can potentially serve as air support, since they do have weapons. James, Cortez and presumaly Kaidan are all qualified to pilot one. And two of these guys are always alive in every playthrough. Hell, one of them is already on the planet anyway! Though this is clearly a much hotter landing zone than, say, Rannoch, but it would be pretty much like how Shepard calls in Cortez to knock out the jamming tower. Shepard could have called in Cortez to knock that gunship out of the sky.

[Animositisomina]

Oh good. I get on the first page of a long 30 page thread hating Liara. So let me do the pre-emptive picture:

 

 

 

Personally, I like Liara... she makes an excellent shield.

 

[Slayer299]

Liara has become a convenient scapegoat for a lot of problems in the series, mostly because of the railroading with her character - you literally cannot complete any of the games without her involvement (in 1, she's the only one who can tell you about Ilos, in 2, while Thane and Samara are not necessary, you cannot get them without speaking to Liara, and in 3, she's a required squadmate on three Primary missions, four including From Ashes), her friendship is played up consistently with Shepard in large part because she is a guaranteed variable, not able to be killed at any point other than the end run of 3 where it has no effect on the story (and you pretty much have to screw over the galaxy to do so), and that she is effectively the most important non-Shepard character in the series.

 

Ultimately, it's a symptom of the writing team writing three separate games and calling them a trilogy, rather than writing a three act trilogy, with each act being a single game. The Virmire decision was a great emotional gutpunch to the player, but now there are two mutually exclusive characters filling the same role while being different individuals, which means that, even if it's not necessarily in-character, they HAVE to cover similar ground, are effectively forced to become interchangeable. The 'dirty dozen' aspect of ME2 allowed for more world-building, but the overarching plot was ignored for the sake of building up these characters. These characters are also all potentially dead at the end of 2, courtesy of the Suicide Mission, which means that all twelve of them have to be written around in 3, despite any potential involvement they could have, because the plot has to continue to function. Liara bears the brunt of the hate come 3 because she's written more as an emotional stand-in for these potentially dead characters, so the moment someone plays a game where they AREN'T dead, she's suddenly standing in for characters who could stand for themselves.

 

It doesn't help that it is a character trait that she effectively becomes obsessed with Shepard, in love with them regardless of what the player says or does. She enshrines Shepard on a pedestal from pretty much the moment she meets them, and refuses to let them be knocked from that place. In her first conversation, she effectively says 'I'm not that interesting, let's talk more about how amazing you are.' All the other romance options in the series ask for Shepard to work at building a relationship with them. Liara throws her interest at Shepard, and repeatedly so. If you're doing a full trilogy run, and you turn her down in 1, she's still holding a torch for Shepard by the time of 3. While we can turn her down, we can do nothing to have Shepard dislodged from that pedestal in her eyes. This is despite the fact that she will argue and butt heads with Javik all through 3, while Shepard can be played as believing and agreeing with Javik every step of the way, and get nothing in response from her.

 

Like I said at the start, she's ultimately a symptom of the overall problem, but she's also one of the most visible symptoms. Since the other symptoms are more along the lines of auto-dialogue or railroaded actions, as opposed to her existence as a character in the series who is perceived as benefiting from the attention, Liara is a convenient scapegoat for the problems at the writing level with how they (didn't) plan things out going in to the series.

 

I think that's a pretty accurate description of the problem. 

[wiccame]

Ironically, they contribute to the war effort sooner than the salarians do, who hold out on you a bit longer if you cure the genophage. It also helps that they are also a more substantial force than the salarians as well.

 

EDIT: If I remember correctly, how soon the salarians throw in support depends on whether or not Kirrahe or Thane are around to help save the salarian councilor.

 

 

Thinking about it, the Normandy is equipped with two UT-47A Kodiaks, and they can potentially serve as air support, since they do have weapons. James, Cortez and presumaly Kaidan are all qualified to pilot one. And two of these guys are always alive in every playthrough. Hell, one of them is already on the planet anyway! Though this is clearly a much hotter landing zone than, say, Rannoch, but it would be pretty much like how Shepard calls in Cortez to knock out the jamming tower. Shepard could have called in Cortez to knock that gunship out of the sky.

Ok fair enough maybe I should have said, they keep vital information that could help the war until their own precious world is threatened. 

 

And regardless of whether the Kodiak could provide air support or not.  At least they were getting Alliance help in some form, when they refused to help Earth in the first place.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Thinking about it, the Normandy is equipped with two UT-47A Kodiaks, and they can potentially serve as air support, since they do have weapons. James, Cortez and presumaly Kaidan are all qualified to pilot one. And two of these guys are always alive in every playthrough. Hell, one of them is already on the planet anyway! Though this is clearly a much hotter landing zone than, say, Rannoch, but it would be pretty much like how Shepard calls in Cortez to knock out the jamming tower. Shepard could have called in Cortez to knock that gunship out of the sky.

 

That's still the equivalent of sending a UH-60 Blackhawk into a combat zone with no air support. It really wouldn't be a huge amount of help in a heavy contact situation. 

 

There's a difference between the Mantiss gunship and the Kodiak shuttle. It's the same as the difference between a Blackhawk, or even more appropriately, a Chinook, and an Apache:

 

You have this (Chinook):

 

 

versus this:

 

[Xilizhra]

Question: is it possible to destroy a Kodiak with hand weapons? Because you can definitely do that with a Mantis.

[KaiserShep]

That's still the equivalent of sending a UH-60 Blackhawk into a combat zone with no air support. It really wouldn't be a huge amount of help in a heavy contact situation. 

 

There's a difference between the Mantiss gunship and the Kodiak shuttle. It's the same as the difference between a Blackhawk, or even more appropriately, a Chinook, and an Apache:

 

You have this (Chinook):

 

 

versus this:

 

 

 

Keep in mind that neither of those vehicles are stealth capable. The kodiak uses the same technology as the Normandy itself, so it can still evade sensors. The gunship Cerberus was using, however, cannot. Oddly enough though, using the kodiak with the turret seemed to work well enough to support Koris on the ground while geth were firing rockets up at the shuttle.

 

I mean, Shepard and the rest of the team had to get off the planet somehow, so the shuttle did come to pick them up at the temple's location anyway.

[KaiserShep]

Question: is it possible to destroy a Kodiak with hand weapons? Because you can definitely do that with a Mantis.

 

It seems to change as the plot dictates for the gameplay. Hell, without Kasumi's overload capability, Donovan Hock's gunship is immune to gunfire from hand weapons because of its kinetic barriers. Good thing the one on Omega didn't have that.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Keep in mind that neither of those vehicles are stealth capable. The kodiak uses the same technology as the Normandy itself, so it can still evade sensors. The gunship Cerberus was using, however, cannot. Oddly enough though, using the kodiak with the turret seemed to work well enough to support Koris on the ground while geth were firing rockets up at the shuttle.

 

I mean, Shepard and the rest of the team had to get off the planet somehow, so the shuttle did come to pick them up at the temple's location anyway.

 

Actually, both have modified variants that are stealth capable. 

 

Regardless, your point has no purpose. You're trying to say that a shuttle with two forward facing guns and a turret for a crew chief is equal to a dedicated attack-gunship in this aspect. 

[KaiserShep]

I still see no reason why it can't be used for this purpose, as it has been before. At the very least, the thing could have been used to shoot down/shoot at the gunship at the temple.

[Mcfly616]

Is Liara hate only pertain to online folks? There are a lot of Liara hate everywhere I read, but when I look up the stats release by Bioware, Liara is the most popular squadmate. Maybe those who have a strong opinion of her scream that loudest, so it seems like she gets more hate than she supposedly had.

didn't you know, the BSN is for hipsters.

Most people like Liara....here at the BSN we hate her. Most people choose Synthesis.....we here at the BSN take it for what it really is: the rape of the natural world.

You get the point....

[von uber]

Ok fair enough maybe I should have said, they keep vital information that could help the war until their own precious world is threatened. 

 

And regardless of whether the Kodiak could provide air support or not.  At least they were getting Alliance help in some form, when they refused to help Earth in the first place.

 

1) The Asari had no idea what the beacon was or how helpful it would be; also Vendetta could not help until the Crucible was finished anyway. They are also fighting on their various colony worlds before Thessia is attacked.

2) 'Help for Earth' is a ridiculous notion that is mainly driven by marketing for the game as noted on numerous threads. The help the Alliance gives Shep (apart from the Normandy) is minimal at best, apart from funding - which is probably the best given that Shep's misison is not frontline combat where they need a lot of ships etc.

What makes me laugh is that the Turians get a free pass because they were the first 'mission' world in progress. If Thessia had been first, would people be moaning about the Turians not helping? And the superiority thing.. well they are the most advanced species; what's the problem?

 

I think the air support quip is taken out of context and is more of an in-joke for the game anyway.

 

Meh. The other thread is far more fun and interesting.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I still see no reason why it can't be used for this purpose, as it has been before. At the very least, the thing could have been used to shoot down/shoot at the gunship at the temple.

 

Because you're putting your shuttle (your escape/egress vehicle) in danger against a vehicle that has greater air-to-air capability and greater firepower, or at ground targets (that can shoot back at it). Ever hear of Operation: Gothic Serpent (Black Hawk Down)? You don't send your transport on an air/ground strike mission. It doesn't have the specialty or capability in that field. It's a useless risk of your transport.

[themikefest]

There's a lot assumption about why T'soni is hated.

 

For me it started when you first see her on Therum. If you save her early in the game she never shuts up between missions. The other is I had no choice in her being a squadmate. After you she mentions Ilos, she is telling you to let the Council know and get them to assemble their fleets. Who the **** does she think she is telling Shepard what to do? Again where's Javik when you need him to throw the thing out the airlock. On your way to Ilos, why is T'soni, Tali and Ashley/Kaidan in the cockpit. There now giving advice to Joker. What a pile of crap. Why don't we have Joker go on a mission advising the squadmates on what to do.

 

I hate all ME1 characters because none of them went to the crash site of the SR1 to pay their respects to ones who were killed. It tells you they didn't give a flying **** about them especially dumb and dumber(Anderson and Hackett). What did they do, they scattered like cockroaches to different parts of the galaxy like nothing ever happened.

 

With T'soni, I can't challenge her on anything she says. The reason she gave me to Cerberus. The armor in her apartment. The pathetic story about my dogtags. I have a what-the-crap hug if I want to recruit Thane and Samara on Illium. The same can be said about all the ME1 characters. You can't challenge them on why nothing was done in the last 2 years. Or at least why no effort was made.

 

ME3 I have to put up having to deal with ME1 characters. T'soni having scenes that don't mean crap to me. The Thessia crap(the worst mission in the trilogy) and then to hear smurfette saying if only we could have Alliance air support. Where was the renegade interrupt to either tell her off or to smash her upside the head. Then I have to say sorry to the peice of crap councillor. But its all the Asari where they can do no wrong and why we have to be so nicey-nice with T'soni.

Yes you can ignore her throughout the game, but you still get the cutscenes, 3 in paticular that don't mean crap, with her that is unavoidable.

[Xilizhra]

I hate all ME1 characters because none of them went to the crash site of the SR1 to pay their respects to ones who were killed. It tells you they didn't give a flying **** about them especially dumb and dumber(Anderson and Hackett). What did they do, they scattered like cockroaches to different parts of the galaxy like nothing ever happened.

That's... enormously presumptuous. Not everyone will have your apparently exacting standards of mourning.

[themikefest]

That's... enormously presumptuous. Not everyone will have your apparently exacting standards of mourning.

 Its obvious you have no respect for the dead.

[Xilizhra]

 Its obvious you have no respect for the dead.

The dead are dead. Mourning is for the living, because grief shared is grief ultimately diminished.

 

The notion that dead people somehow deserve more respect than living people--inherently, not just as a means of not offending anyone grieving over their loss--is utterly bizarre to me.

[CronoDragoon]

Is Liara hate only pertain to online folks? There are a lot of Liara hate everywhere I read, but when I look up the stats release by Bioware, Liara is the most popular squadmate. Maybe those who have a strong opinion of her scream that loudest, so it seems like she gets more hate than she supposedly had.

 

I doubt it pertains only to online folks, but then again the online population actually likes Liara in general. The perception that they don't is explained by your last sentence.