859 réponses à ce sujet

[Barquiel]

By that logic Britain didn't win the Napoleonic Wars...or WW 2. I doubt many historians would agree with this.

[von uber]

Anyway, apart from the Thessia arc and LotSb, her character development isn't that expansive - I'm surprised by how easily she gets over her mother being dead in ME1 (or in my case, helping Shep kill her mother).

[Derpy]

Liara should have been the first to walk out the airlock.

This.

[DeinonSlayer]

Yes, if you ignore the Asari contribution. Like WW2 was won by the US.

The Allies won on the western front. The Soviets won on the eastern front. The latter was the larger conflict.

I never read anything about the Asari winning on any front in either war. They held ground and survived long enough to rope in someone else to fight and win for them (the Turians paid dearly for aligning with the Council when contacted - asteroid bombardment). It'd be like if the Quarians uplifted humanity during the 20th century to fight the Geth for them and then called it their own victory.

[CrutchCricket]

Hating the asari or Liara isn't the same as hating a real person or ethnc group. I hate Liara and the asari as characters and concepts. I want them gone from the verse for various reasons. And, yes, sometimes my fantasies of fictional genocide are a bit vivid. But, again, not real.

 

And I used to like Liara...

 

Justifying hate only on the basis of your target being fictional is not a very strong distinction.

[Mordokai]

Anyway, apart from the Thessia arc and LotSb, her character development isn't that expansive - I'm surprised by how easily she gets over her mother being dead in ME1 (or in my case, helping Shep kill her mother).

 

To her credit, she does reveal she still misses her in ME3, on her Citadel date. So one can assume she didn't get over it quite as quickly as the first game presents it.

[von uber]

To her credit, she does reveal she still misses her in ME3, on her Citadel date. So one can assume she didn't get over it quite as quickly as the first game presents it.

 

Bad choice of wording by me; I mean it's surprising how quickly the writers dropped that element. You only see flashes of it 'I'm not my mother' etc. Given that it is likely she helped kill her, you'd think it would be fairly defining.

[eyezonlyii]

She really is. Come to think of it, I'm surprised she doesn't get hit with Kaidan treatment. You know, "he's so bland and boring." Or maybe I'm just visiting the wrong threads.

 

 

I wasn't speaking of you personally, but the general atmosphere certainly seems to be leaning in that direction.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on personality, since I find her to be just great. But then, I'm that kind of a guy. And I like Kaidan and Jacob quite well enough and they seem to be widely perceived as two of the most bland characters in the trilogy.

 

 

I consider any kind of hate unhealty. Especially if it's on the virtual characters.

 

It's just such a... wasteful emotion.

 

The reason she doesn't get hit with the Kaidan treatment is because unfortunately for Kaidan (and Ashley), any potential character growth was halted by the lack of interaction in ME2. That and the "complexity" that Liara gains from being an information broker could have been the same for Kaidan/Ashley had two characters been deleted: Jack and possibly Jacob.

 

Jack had the angry biotic personality that Kaidan could have had and Jacob had a more nuanced view of the Alliance the could have tempered Ashley's attitude on the subject. That and Liara had a whole separate DLC in which to grow. Honestly, I would have loved for the "classified mission" the VS was on to have been Arrival. Then we could see that 1) the Alliance was actively doing something and 2) Why in the world the VS had a rank jump between games.

[Mordokai]

Bad choice of wording by me; I mean it's surprising how quickly the writers dropped that element. You only see flashes of it 'I'm not my mother' etc. Given that it is likely she helped kill her, you'd think it would be fairly defining.

 

What can I say, the writers dropped the ball on that one. Yeah, you'd imagine being involved in your mother's death would elicit stronger reaction. And it would be nice to see more emotional reaction.

 

That's what fanfiction is there for

 

 

The reason she doesn't get hit with the Kaidan treatment is because unfortunately for Kaidan (and Ashley), any potential character growth was halted by the lack of interaction in ME2. That and the "complexity" that Liara gains from being an information broker could have been the same for Kaidan/Ashley had two characters been deleted: Jack and possibly Jacob.

 

Jack had the angry biotic personality that Kaidan could have had and Jacob had a more nuanced view of the Alliance the could have tempered Ashley's attitude on the subject. That and Liara had a whole separate DLC in which to grow. Honestly, I would have loved for the "classified mission" the VS was on to have been Arrival. Then we could see that 1) the Alliance was actively doing something and 2) Why in the world the VS had a rank jump between games.

 

An interesting view Personally, I can't see the Kaidan as supplement for Jack, he's just too much of a nice guy, though he certainly toughens up in the third game. But I can see where you're coming from.

 

As for Ashley... some nuances would certainly do her good.

 

Thank you, for presenting me another point of view on this.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

The Allies won on the western front. The Soviets won on the eastern front. The latter was the larger conflict.
 

I never read anything about the Asari winning on any front in either war. They held ground and survived long enough to rope in someone else to fight and win for them (the Turians paid dearly for aligning with the Council when contacted - asteroid bombardment). It'd be like if the Quarians uplifted humanity during the 20th century to fight the Geth for them and then called it their own victory. 

Well, the US beat Japan more or less alone, while fighting on the western front. The Pacific theater is often ignored. And the Soviets won by just throwing people at the Germans. I'm not impressed by their sacrifice, and that 30 million Soviets died. They had superior numbers and that was about it. 

Anyway, the Asari commandos, along with the STG, practically eliminated the entirety of Krogan infrastructure in the beginning. They were just outmatched because Krogan are thousand pound warriors with regenerative abilities, redundant nervous and organ systems, and can give birth to a thousand new ones in a year. 

[von uber]

Well, the US beat Japan more or less alone, while fighting on the western front. 

 

Yes, they did.

 

If you ignore the millions of Chinese, British Far East Army, all the Aussies and Kiwis etc.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Yes, they did.

 

If you ignore the millions of Chinese, British Far East Army, all the Aussies and Kiwis etc.

Admittedly, the Chinese fought off the Japanese fairly well and the Brits fought in Burma, but it was still mainly US forces. 

[eyezonlyii]

What can I say, the writers dropped the ball on that one. Yeah, you'd imagine being involved in your mother's death would elicit stronger reaction. And it would be nice to see more emotional reaction.

 

That's what fanfiction is there for

 

 

 

An interesting view Personally, I can't see the Kaidan as supplement for Jack, he's just too much of a nice guy, though he certainly toughens up in the third game. But I can see where you're coming from.

 

As for Ashley... some nuances would certainly do her good.

 

Thank you, for presenting me another point of view on this.

No problem. I've always advocated for more Kaidan inclusion/interaction. Ideally (and I've said this multiple times) I would have had him required for the Grissom Academy mission, whether or not Jack is alive. It would have given him a clearer view on what leading a young biotic special forces squad would entail, and it would allow the students to see an older biotic with combat training. If Jack is alive, then there could have been a scene detailing the similarity/differences in how they were trained. Additionally, a scene with Miranda would work too. Even Jacob...maybe. (actually I've been kicking around a fanfic idea with some of this).

 

I've never saved Ashley, but I think having her mandatory on Jacob's mission (assuming you can get it without him alive) could have been a good move as well. She could have had a scene whee she realizes that not everyone is Cerberus is a bad person (Kaidan's "Their good people conversation). It would have shown some growth for her as well.

[Mordokai]

No problem. I've always advocated for more Kaidan inclusion/interaction. Ideally (and I've said this multiple times) I would have had him required for the Grissom Academy mission, whether or not Jack is alive. It would have given him a clearer view on what leading a young biotic special forces squad would entail, and it would allow the students to see an older biotic with combat training. If Jack is alive, then there could have been a scene detailing the similarity/differences in how they were trained. Additionally, a scene with Miranda would work too. Even Jacob...maybe. (actually I've been kicking around a fanfic idea with some of this).

 

I've never saved Ashley, but I think having her mandatory on Jacob's mission (assuming you can get it without him alive) could have been a good move as well. She could have had a scene whee she realizes that not everyone is Cerberus is a bad person (Kaidan's "Their good people conversation). It would have shown some growth for her as well.

 

Those are some interesting ideas. And some interaction between Jack and Kaidan would certainly be interesting. Add Liara in there and you have a veritable biotic artilery. Almost makes you feel sorry for Cerberus... almost.

 

Much like yourself, I'd love to see more stuff with Kaidan. He is actually one of my favourite characters. Of course, him being a veritable powerhouse in combat and the best tank in game doesn't help

 

As for Ash... I like the idea of having her mandatory for some Cerberus missions and one to help the scientists is certainly a good choice. Though personally, I'm not sure what good that would do. One of her main character traits is stuborness and I'm not really sure if anything could make her change her mind on Cerberus.

 

Did anybody had her on that mission? Does she say anything? She is never alive in any of my games as well, so I can't check it.

[von uber]

but it was still mainly US forces.

Well no, it wasn't. But this isn't the place.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Well no, it wasn't. But this isn't the place.

Agreed. 

[Han Shot First]

Won by the Krogan, and the Salarians/Turians, respectively.

 

Thats an over-simplification of what were large coalitions against a single opponent. If I can go Godwin for a moment, its like saying the Soviets won the Second World War. Or more accurately since Shepard questions whether the Asari have ever won a war, it would be the equivalent of someone questioning whether Britain won the Second World War.

 

Also in the little tidbits we do have on the Krogan Rebellions, in the war we see the Asari military defeating the Krogan. At Cyone the Asari defenders repulsed several assaults by the Krogan, and then finally drove them completely from the system after cutting their supply lines. At Lusia the initial Krogan invasion succeeded unlike at Cyone, but they were eventually forced to surrender when their supply lines were cut. (Again! Apparently the Krogan fail at logistics)

 

Shepard's comment is as idiotic as asking whether the Asari can reproduce with their own species, because the Asari were on the winning side in both conflicts, and because their military can and did hold its own against the Krogan. Shepard's comment also seems more ridiculous when you consider that it follows on the heels of the Asari doing a better job of defending their home system than the Alliance did.

 

The burn would have worked better if Shepard tried taunting her about hiding behind allies or something similar. It would still be juvenile, but at least wouldn't be entirely incorrect. Instead questioning whether they've ever won a war makes it sound as if history isn't one of Shepard's strongpoints.

[Mordokai]

Well, there is that burn of Tela Vasir in LotsB where Shepard suggests that asari should stick to dancing... "you know, play to your strenghts".

 

Pretty damn juvenile(seems like renegades are often like that), but at least moderately funny. Otherwise, I'm tempted to agree with Han(hope you don't mind me calling you that, if yes, let me know) there.

[DeinonSlayer]

Thats an over-simplification of what were large coalitions against a single opponent. If I can go Godwin for a moment, its like saying the Soviets won the Second World War. Or more accurately since Shepard questions whether the Asari have ever won a war, it would be the equivalent of someone questioning whether Britain won the Second World War.
 
Also in the little tidbits we do have on the Krogan Rebellions, in the war we see the Asari military defeating the Krogan. At Cyone the Asari defenders repulsed several assaults by the Krogan, and then finally drove them completely from the system after cutting their supply lines. At Lusia the initial Krogan invasion succeeded unlike at Cyone, but they were eventually forced to surrender when their supply lines were cut. (Again! Apparently the Krogan fail at logistics)
 
Shepard's comment is as idiotic as asking whether the Asari can reproduce with their own species, because the Asari were on the winning side in both conflicts, and because their military can and did hold its own against the Krogan. Shepard's comment also seems more ridiculous when you consider that it follows on the heels of the Asari doing a better job of defending their home system than the Alliance did.
 
The burn would have worked better if Shepard tried taunting her about hiding behind allies or something similar. It would still be juvenile, but at least wouldn't be entirely incorrect. Instead questioning whether they've ever won a war makes it sound as if history isn't one of Shepard's strongpoints.

Fair enough, I concede the point - I admit I wasn't aware of what happened at Cyone, but on Lusia, as I recall, the Krogan "annexed" the world (no word on whether violence was employed - seems to me, pre-war, the Krogan simply immigrated en mass to a new place and out-bred the natives) and the Council fired the first shots.

[themikefest]

 

 

Shepard's comment is as idiotic as asking whether the Asari can reproduce with their own species, because the Asari were on the winning side in both conflicts, and because their military can and did hold its own against the Krogan. Shepard's comment also seems more ridiculous when you consider that it follows on the heels of the Asari doing a better job of defending their home system than the Alliance did.

 

 

How well would've the asari been able to defend their home system if the reapers hit them first instead of going to Earth?

[Ribosome]

Did anybody had her on that mission? Does she say anything? She is never alive in any of my games as well, so I can't check it.

 

I've brought her along to Gellix, some time ago. Your squad members don't much, if any, meaningful dialogue throughout. She just asks if Shepard knows Jacob after safely getting inside the base (I didn't bring him to Horizon, so I don't know if she says anything differently in such a case), and a small comment about how grave things would have been if not for their assistance. I think that's it. Meh.

[DuskWanderer]

But as I said in another topic the ones who want Liara to be killable don't want it for any thematic or story reasons, they want it for the pleasure of watching her die. And that just seems petty as hell.

 

No, not even close. Sure, some people might want the pleasure of seeing her die: You get that with almost every character in the game. Those of us who don't care for Liara don't want her forced on us as the best friend. There is literally ZERO reason to believe it, particularly when you never even talk to her. At least with Garrus and Tali, you're recruiting them because of a mission, not to be your friends. You can say that, but you choose to say that.

 

We frame the narrative, we are the players. Every other character is either given a level of professionalism that's believable, or you boink them. You can do things to your squaddies that ****** them off (Sabotaging the genophage, for one)

 

Liara? If I go down to Javik, I have to be all nice while she's throwing a temper tantrum. She invites herself up TWICE to my room, whereas Traynor comes up once to introduce herself and give me the vid-screen tour, which it seems as though she can't do remotely. 

[von uber]

Invite. You choose to accept.

And we don't get a free hand at all in mass effect. You can't get rid of every character, shep does things automatically whether you want to or not, she has her own thoughts and dialogue independent of the player.

Get annoyed about that if you will, but 1 character out of the entire trilogy? That's just stupid.

[KaiserShep]

Invite. You choose to accept.

 

Technically, Liara shows up twice on her own, and a third time if you invite her up. A fourth if romanced.