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[Johun]

I find all the religions in the setting intriguing. From the Jesus-Joan of Arc switcheroo in the Chant to the alien philosophy of the Qun, the ancestor worship of the dwarves and the desperately cobbled together polytheism of the Dalish. Even minor ones like the Avvar Pantheon are really cool. From what little snippets we get to hear, both the Chant and the Qun have some really compelling language in them. I'm also fond of the symbols of the Chantry, the Eternal Flame in place of the cross, The Sword of Mercy, even the practice of cremation is cool(and practical in a world where corpses routinely rise from their graves).

 

As for my characters, as a rule, my human characters are Andrastian. It's a huge part of human society in Thedas, I feel religion helps tie my characters to their culture. People close to the PC also tend to be believers. Aeducan and Mahariel I also play as practitioners of their people's faiths. As for the the other origins, they wouldn't have much exposure to religion, nor incentive to follow it.

 

In Inquisition, I'll have to see a little more of the character backgrounds before deciding. However, I will most likely play a human on my first playthrough so I can believably support the Chantry and the Templars, as it is my personal preference.

[Enshaid]

All ideals can lead to violence and extremism.

Ya know..like a "mage freedom" ideal.
 

I love how on bsn magic is a more contentious issue than real world religion.

[CybAnt1]

Well, I'm basing this on the fact that the Imperial Chantry doesn't accept Andrastre as being divine and do not worship her. She's basically fantasy Jesus in this context. 

 

Actually, I think the (non-Imperial) Chantry does not believe Andraste is "divine". She was the bride of the Maker (figuratively) and maybe empowered by him to do miracles (kind of like Moses supposedly did in Egypt), but unlike real-world theologies (e.g. the Trinity) she is not considered in any way part of the Maker Itself or a divine figure ("daughter of the Big G"), just a human agent and representative. 

 

I think the Imperials take the position she was a mage, and not doing divine miracles on behalf of the Maker. 

 

That, and of course, an all-female Clergy is a big difference between the Chantry and the real-world Church. Well, that, and as well, the Chantry is also quasi-deistic  in that it says the Maker no longer intervenes in the world because of what people did to offend It. The purpose of the Chant of Light is to get It back into the groove of caring about and care taking the world, again. 

 

As for the Qun ... you know, I've often complained that many Western cultures are too individualistic, and I am really glad at least somebody cares about the fact that Thedas' non-nobility & casteless are suffering from poverty, oppression, and inequality, but what bothers me about the system (whether it was what Koslun intended to be, or represents ... 'modifications') is it strikes me as a classic example of the solution/cure being worse than the disease. I can't fathom living in a culture that denies people so many individual choices, even basically refuses to give individuals unique names. Yeah, it gives me a visceral distaste. We've never had to play a Qun-following character ... probably won't even have to this time .. for me it would present a real RP challenge. 

[wcholcombe]

Andraste plays a similar role to Mary. In the Catholic faith she is extremely important and holds an important position. In protestant faiths she is honored in a way, but more fore the role she played, not as a being of worship. Catholic/Protestant. Andrastian/Imperial.

Though in the Imperial Chantry the Archon who converted to Andrastianism is almost the same position as Andraste in the Andrastian Chantry.

I find all the religions interesting. The dwarves and Chantry being my favorites. There are holes/doubts in all their religions.

I like the chantry best for a variety of reasons.

[Xilizhra]

Actually, I think the (non-Imperial) Chantry does not believe Andraste is "divine". She was the bride of the Maker (figuratively) and maybe empowered by him to do miracles (kind of like Moses supposedly did in Egypt), but unlike real-world theologies (e.g. the Trinity) she is not considered in any way part of the Maker Itself or a divine figure ("daughter of the Big G"), just a human agent and representative.

So basically she's Muhammad.

 

Andraste is really a lot more like Muhammad than either Jesus or Joan; she had a position akin to him both as a general and as a messenger of the divine. She just had a Jesus-esque martyrdom at the end.

[Zered]

Parshaara!

 

The Qun is the only way to exist!

[CybAnt1]

So basically she's Muhammad.

 

Andraste is really a lot more like Muhammad than either Jesus or Joan; she had a position akin to him both as a general and as a messenger of the divine. She just had a Jesus-esque martyrdom at the end.

 

Yes, in her story, it is her own husband (Maferath) who is her Judas, and betrays her to be killed.

 

Of course, one other huge un-Christ like difference is no (claimed) resurrection ... after all, we are (supposedly) looking at her cremated ashes in the Sacred Urn in DAO. 

[Johun]

Yes, in her story, it is her own husband (Maferath) who is her Judas, and betrays her to be killed.

 

Of course, one other huge un-Christ like difference is no (claimed) resurrection ... after all, we are (supposedly) looking at her cremated ashes in the Sacred Urn in DAO. 

Not a physical resurrection anyway. Her ashes don't disappear from a cave or anything.

 

However, she is believed to have ascended to the Maker's side and does appear to the faithful(Havard for example) post-mortem like Christ.

 

From the World of Thedas.

[CybAnt1]

Hmmm. So while the Maker has turned his back on the world, his Bride will still (it is claimed) appear to the faithful. (*)

 

Maybe It said to her, "well, keep an eye on them while my back is to them." 

 

Interesting. 

 

(*) Does remind me of (supposed) real-world apparitions of the Virgin Mary. 

[Ieldra]

How do *I* feel about the religions of Thedas? They're an interesting mix inspired by certain real-world religions and ideologies. I appreciate that they exist and they contribute a lot to the impression of Thedas as a believable fictional world.

 

How do my characters feel about them? Mostly, pretty much as I do about real-world religions: social movements which shroud history in a mantle of their own ideology, revering things that don't exist and promoting value systems I have serious issues with, so far without exception. Also, like I do, most of my characters don't believe in faith as something that tells you anything meaningful about the universe, and they're usually completely unwilling to grant any external entitiy authority over their ethics. I may play the occasional believer here and there, but the characters I identify with most are always philosophically self-contained.  

 

For that reason, it is immensely important that my DAI characters won't have to subscribe to any religion.

[Dean_the_Young]

I feel they are largely misunderstood. How people on these forums see the religions often has far more to do with their own biases and baggage than anything about the religion in question itself: a failure to distinguish from real world religions due to superficial similarities, a failure to distinguish religious doctrine from secular policies and motivations, a failure to distinguish members of a faith from the faith itself.

 

In general, I get the impression from these forums that many people feel that if X religion were destroyed and barred from practice, the evil's of mankind would greatly diminish and more people would become properly enlightened thinkers who agree with them.

 

Personally, I feel that's a confusion of correlation and causation that says more about the opponent of organized religion than the religion itself.

 

 

Past that, they're interesting enough I suppose. Andrastianism is probably one of the most ultimately beneficial social movements in Thedas despite its mixed history, and stands well in regards to many real-world religious and secular movements of similar scale. It's also the political movement I see as most likely to lead to something resembling western liberalism in the DA setting, capable of a pan-Thedasian liberalism rather than narrow factional self-interest. The Qunari, despite being more a philosophy, are both alien and interesting despite my personal issues with their tenants. The Elvish religion makes no differance to me one way or the other- my issues are with the Dalish culture that practices it, not the religion.

[wcholcombe]

Hmmm. So while the Maker has turned his back on the world, his Bride will still (it is claimed) appear to the faithful. (*)

 

Maybe It said to her, "well, keep an eye on them while my back is to them." 

 

Interesting. 

 

(*) Does remind me of (supposed) real-world apparitions of the Virgin Mary. 

Thats what I was basically arguing above.

[LobselVith8]

We know in Inquisition we'll be getting different race choices back again. Do you think we'll be able to somewhat identify with the religions most commonly related to the race we choose, or will we default to identifying with the Chantry, based on the position we'll all be starting in as the Inquisitioner?

The Dalish follow the Creators and adhere to their own cultural beliefs, like seeing the denizens of the Beyond as spirits and taking the view that magic is a gift of the Creators. I'm not seeing the point of providing the Dalish as a racial option if we were simply going to be an Andrastian elf.

While I'm willing to accept it, personally, I'd rather not get pigeonholed into only accepting the Chantry as correct in their beliefs.

I'm hoping it's similar to Origins, where I could make it clear I don't believe in the Maker. I'm very interested in playing as a Dalish mage who believes in the elven pantheon.

Ideally, I think it would be nice if we could express belief that probably nobody has it quite right. I realize the "atheist" concept was nixed, but that's not what I'm suggesting.

Unfortunately, the atheist option doesn't seem to be making a return, which is why I'm glad we aren't limited to religiously Andrastian characters, like Hawke.

That's bringing real world belief systems into an imaginary world by name. I'm not against the idea of a person saying they don't believe in any gods in game, but that's not what I personally want, either. Thedas isn't the real world, there's a lot more concrete evidence there that there's something to some of these beliefs. However, I think people have likely corrupted the truth to fit their own agendas and I think it would be nice if we could eventually express as much. I would love to play my Inquisitioner as a jaded skeptic.

How do you guys feel about the religions of Thedas and how would you like to represent your beliefs in character?

I rather like the religion of the Elvhen, so I'm happy that I can play as a Dalish elf who isn't going to capitulate to some monstrous anti-elven, anti-mage shemlen religion.

[wcholcombe]

I'm hoping it's similar to Origins, where I could make it clear I don't believe in the Maker. I'm very interested in playing as a Dalish mage who believes in the elven pantheon.


Unfortunately, the atheist option doesn't seem to be making a return, which is why I'm glad we aren't limited to religiously Andrastian characters, like Hawke.


I rather like the religion of the Elvhen, so I'm happy that I can play as a Dalish elf who isn't going to capitulate to some monstrous anti-elven, anti-mage shemlen religion.

Lob, just for you I may make a pro chantry Dalish character Don't take this the wrong way, but the Chantry isn't any more anti elf then the Dalish are anti human.  They have the right to be, but the whole "its your fault we aren't immortal anymore" isn't exactly a welcoming religious stance.

 

In regards to the Atheist stance, it never truly made sense to me in DAO to have that stance.  I understand a good number of those who play the game do not believe in a greater being or at the very least don't accept a particular religious doctrine, however, in the time period and the setting we are in, it doesn't truly make sense for there really being an atheist view point.  You either grew up a dwarf-who all seem to associate with the stone, an andrastian city elf-who has a revered mother at their wedding ceremony, a dalish(who I can't imagine the hole in the logic of an atheist Dalish), a human noble who was raised in an extremely andrastian family and has a priest living in their home, or a circle mage-I can almost see the atheist aspect of this, but I still would expect you grew up in your formative years in a religious group of one kind or another, even if you claim you were raised Chasind.

 

Not a religion vs. atheism argument at all, just the idea that in the time period and the world DAO was set, to me personally I always found it odd that an atheist character was an option.  I can see that it was probably done so that real world atheist didn't have to play a religious character, but that is like metagaming to me.  Though I will allow, that in DAI, it is entirely possible the Vashoth/Kossith character could be atheist, and that might actually make sense, depending on how vashoth culture exists.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Lob, just for you I may make a pro chantry Dalish character Don't take this the wrong way, but the Chantry isn't any more anti elf then the Dalish are anti human.  They have the right to be, but the whole "its your fault we aren't immortal anymore" isn't exactly a welcoming religious stance.

 

In regards to the Atheist stance, it never truly made sense to me in DAO to have that stance.  I understand a good number of those who play the game do not believe in a greater being or at the very least don't accept a particular religious doctrine, however, in the time period and the setting we are in, it doesn't truly make sense for there really being an atheist view point.  You either grew up a dwarf-who all seem to associate with the stone, an andrastian city elf-who has a revered mother at their wedding ceremony, a dalish(who I can't imagine the hole in the logic of an atheist Dalish), a human noble who was raised in an extremely andrastian family and has a priest living in their home, or a circle mage-I can almost see the atheist aspect of this, but I still would expect you grew up in your formative years in a religious group of one kind or another, even if you claim you were raised Chasind.

 

Not a religion vs. atheism argument at all, just the idea that in the time period and the world DAO was set, to me personally I always found it odd that an atheist character was an option.  I can see that it was probably done so that real world atheist didn't have to play a religious character, but that is like metagaming to me.  Though I will allow, that in DAI, it is entirely possible the Vashoth/Kossith character could be atheist, and that might actually make sense, depending on how vashoth culture exists.

It doesn't seem at all impossible to me that someone could be an atheist in Thedas. There are always going to be people that don't believe what their parents believed. The "time period" isn't really relevant. That's basically how it's always been. There have always been skeptics, regardless what the belief system was. It might be less likely than in the current real world, but it's certainly nowhere near impossible. 

[Master Warder Z_]

It doesn't seem at all impossible to me that someone could be an atheist in Thedas. There are always going to be people that don't believe what their parents believed. The "time period" isn't really relevant. That's basically how it's always been. There have always been skeptics, regardless what the belief system was. It might be less likely than in the current real world, but it's certainly nowhere near impossible. 

 

Ahem, Even those "dissenters" of yore were careful generally not to overly offend religious authorities and even upon occasion practice their faith, it was more common then publicly denouncing it anyway.

 

Buy into whatever Mantra you want, but back when they were executing people for worshiping the wrong God or not believing in the right one, pretty sure most folks stirred clear of the whole "i don't believe in your god" subject, in fact several notable people of science actually faked or had religious devotion during our own Medieval period and past it into the progressive era of the renaissance.

 

Personally i think when you apply any spectrum of thought to it, you find self proclaimed "atheists" at least within Human society, to be a rarity more oft due to location and said views and teachings not reaching them, over personal rejection or fear of persecution. It wouldn't be a normal occurrence in most of the preset origins of DAO.

[TheKomandorShepard]

It doesn't seem at all impossible to me that someone could be an atheist in Thedas. There are always going to be people that don't believe what their parents believed. The "time period" isn't really relevant. That's basically how it's always been. There have always been skeptics, regardless what the belief system was. It might be less likely than in the current real world, but it's certainly nowhere near impossible. 

This that you were raised in religious family doesn't have to make you religious so if our inq will be from tevinter he should automatically slavery and system thats just stupid... i don't even mention that such things shouldn't be enforced on rpg pc as i should be one who shape my character...

 

 

Ahem, Even those "dissenters" of yore were careful generally not to overly offend religious authorities and even upon occasion practice their faith, it was more common then publicly denouncing it anyway.

 

Buy into whatever Mantra you want, but back when they were executing people for worshiping the wrong God or not believing in the right one, pretty sure most folks stirred clear of the whole "i don't believe in your god" subject, in fact several notable people of science actually faked or had religious devotion during our own Medieval period and past it into the progressive era of the renaissance.

 

Personally i think when you apply any spectrum of thought to it, you find self proclaimed "atheists" at least within Human society, to be a rarity more oft due to location and said views and teachings not reaching them, over personal rejection or fear of persecution. It wouldn't be a normal occurrence in most of the preset origins of DAO.

 

That is not in case in thedas sure you can make angry fanatics but no one will burn you for that pretty much example with sister in ostagar she is angry that you don't belive and insult you but not outside...

 

There were always peoples who simple didn't belive in something it is normal thing...

[LobselVith8]

Lob, just for you I may make a pro chantry Dalish character Don't take this the wrong way, but the Chantry isn't any more anti elf then the Dalish are anti human. They have the right to be, but the whole "its your fault we aren't immortal anymore" isn't exactly a welcoming religious stance.

I was thinking more along the lines of an in-character perspective (hence invoking the elven term for human), given the hunting down of the clans, the criminalization of their religion, and the destruction of elven depictions save for one, where Shartan's ears were cropped to look human.

In regards to the Atheist stance, it never truly made sense to me in DAO to have that stance. I understand a good number of those who play the game do not believe in a greater being or at the very least don't accept a particular religious doctrine, however, in the time period and the setting we are in, it doesn't truly make sense for there really being an atheist view point. You either grew up a dwarf-who all seem to associate with the stone, an andrastian city elf-who has a revered mother at their wedding ceremony, a dalish(who I can't imagine the hole in the logic of an atheist Dalish), a human noble who was raised in an extremely andrastian family and has a priest living in their home, or a circle mage-I can almost see the atheist aspect of this, but I still would expect you grew up in your formative years in a religious group of one kind or another, even if you claim you were raised Chasind.

Not a religion vs. atheism argument at all, just the idea that in the time period and the world DAO was set, to me personally I always found it odd that an atheist character was an option. I can see that it was probably done so that real world atheist didn't have to play a religious character, but that is like metagaming to me. Though I will allow, that in DAI, it is entirely possible the Vashoth/Kossith character could be atheist, and that might actually make sense, depending on how vashoth culture exists.

Since atheism has existed for centuries, it didn't seem odd to me that the option was available; it was true to the real world equivalent of the setting Thedas is loosely based on.

[wcholcombe]

It doesn't seem at all impossible to me that someone could be an atheist in Thedas. There are always going to be people that don't believe what their parents believed. The "time period" isn't really relevant. That's basically how it's always been. There have always been skeptics, regardless what the belief system was. It might be less likely than in the current real world, but it's certainly nowhere near impossible. 

Well, my reference is more to studies that show atheism is tied to a degree to education levels and the fact that even in this day and age if you go to 3rd world countries you see a dramatically high shift in religion.  In mexico today less then 4% of the population describes themselves as non religious, but that isn't just atheist, it is also people who don't practice an organized religion.

 

In Thedas were you live in villages where the majority of the population may very well never leave, there aren't a lot of the outside influences that could lead to a dramatically different belief system than your parents and fellow villagers.  Also, even in larger cities, there isn't going to be this big group of atheist, due in large part to the lack of education and seeing everything in a god/religion view point.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Ahem, Even those "dissenters" of yore were careful generally not to overly offend religious authorities and even upon occasion practice their faith, it was more common then publicly denouncing it anyway.

 

Buy into whatever Mantra you want, but back when they were executing people for worshiping the wrong God or not believing in the right one, pretty sure most folks stirred clear of the whole "i don't believe in your god" subject, in fact several notable people of science actually faked or had religious devotion during our own Medieval period and past it into the progressive era of the renaissance.

 

Personally i think when you apply any spectrum of thought to it, you find self proclaimed "atheists" at least within Human society, to be a rarity more oft due to location and said views and teachings not reaching them, over personal rejection or fear of persecution. It wouldn't be a normal occurrence in most of the preset origins of DAO.

I'm sure people took into consideration the risk and that's varied greatly through history, not simply moved forward at a constant rate world wide. I doubt The Warden felt s/he was at a particularly higher risk for claiming not to believe in any particular religion, since people were already trying their hardest to kill them, either way. Not that I've ever seen anyone in Thedas executed for not claiming to be Andrastrian, or any other religion. You have to remember, Thedas isn't medieval Europe, regardless how strong people's impression is that it should be. The countries don't even all resemble medieval Europe to any extent.

 

It may not be a "normal" occurrence, but you're not playing a "normal" person in Dragon Age games. You're playing a one man army that constantly has a line of people wanting to take you out for much more serious issues. I doubt this unsubstantiated fear based on an assumption we've not even seen evidence of is at the top of the list. If you want to RP that you're hiding your beliefs to play it safe, then go for it, but it's really easy to understand why not everyone would feel the need to.

[Big I]

I have the following problems with Andrastianism:

 

1) The Exalted March on the Dales was in direct violation of Andraste's promise; the central figure of their religion promised the elves a homeland, and the Chantry betrayed that promise.

 

2) The Tevinter Chantry does not, to the best of our knowledge, condemn slavery, proving that Chantry hypocrisy is not limited to the followers of the White Divine. Andraste freed the slaves, they should try to remember that.

 

3) We have so far seen a total of one dwarven cleric (Brother Burkel) and no elven ones. It appears non-humans are being kept out of the power structures of the Chantry.

 

4) The discovery of Haven and it's Guardian, an Andrastian sect with an unbroken line of worship to Andraste and watched over by one of her disciples, should have had massive repercussions to Chantry worship. That this is not the case suggests the Chantry is more concerned with it's worldly power than ensuring the accuracy of the Chant of Light.

 

 

I also have a problem with dwarven hypocrisy; they claim the Ancestors show their favor in Provings yet stop casteless from taking part.

[Master Warder Z_]

I'm sure people took into consideration the risk and that's varied greatly through history, not simply moved forward at a constant rate world wide. I doubt The Warden felt s/he was at a particularly higher risk for claiming not to believe in any particular religion, since people were already trying their hardest to kill them, either way. Not that I've ever seen anyone in Thedas executed for not claiming to be Andrastrian, or any other religion. You have to remember, Thedas isn't medieval Europe, regardless how strong people's impression is that it should be. The countries don't even all resemble medieval Europe to any extent.

 

It may not be a "normal" occurrence, but you're not playing a "normal" person in Dragon Age games. You're playing a one man army that constantly has a line of people wanting to take you out for much more serious issues. I doubt this unsubstantiated fear based on an assumption we've not even seen evidence of is at the top of the list. If you want to RP that you're hiding your beliefs to play it safe, then go for it, but it's really easy to understand why not everyone would feel the need to.

 

So you're arguing Gameplay choice shouldn't be effected by the Lore, but should effect the lore?

 

The PC is a product of the world, the world isn't a product of the PC.

 

That's how i view and that's why i understand why religion is included with characters.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Well, my reference is more to studies that show atheism is tied to a degree to education levels and the fact that even in this day and age if you go to 3rd world countries you see a dramatically high shift in religion.  In mexico today less then 4% of the population describes themselves as non religious, but that isn't just atheist, it is also people who don't practice an organized religion.

 

In Thedas were you live in villages where the majority of the population may very well never leave, there aren't a lot of the outside influences that could lead to a dramatically different belief system than your parents and fellow villagers.  Also, even in larger cities, there isn't going to be this big group of atheist, due in large part to the lack of education and seeing everything in a god/religion view point.

Atheism has spanned into prehistory and was well documented in Ancient Greece. I don't think there's compelling evidence that you need a high level of modern education to grasp the concept, considering. I'm not arguing that it would be a major percentage of the population, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be your PC. Consider how much your character actually accomplished in the year they're active in DA:O. They are able to navigate multiple major political crisis and defeat the blight quicker by far than anyone to date, with just a handful of people in toe. I'd say it's not surprising, in comparison, that they might think a little outside the box when it comes to religion and philosophy.

[wcholcombe]

I was thinking more along the lines of an in-character perspective (hence invoking the elven term for human), given the hunting down of the clans, the criminalization of their religion, and the destruction of elven depictions save for one, where Shartan's ears were cropped to look human.


Since atheism has existed for centuries, it didn't seem odd to me that the option was available; it was true to the real world equivalent of the setting Thedas is loosely based on.

I know Lob, I just couldn't resist having some fun.  I will not resort to another Chantry Dalish debate.  That is in danger of being as dead a horse as Merril.

 

I am not denying the possibility of atheist, just the likely hood of it from the back grounds that the DAO characters came from. The dwarves seem to be highly intolerant of those who do not worship the stone, again a Dalish atheist sounds like a contradiction in terms, the CE has a revered mother for the wedding, the couslands are highly religious and have an in house priest.  The mage is a possiblity I just don't see it being likely.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

So you're arguing Gameplay choice shouldn't be effected by the Lore, but should effect the lore?

 

The PC is a product of the world, the world isn't a product of the PC.

 

That's how i view and that's why i understand why religion is included with characters.

I don't think this follows what I actually said?

 

There's no evidence that people are executed in Thedas for disbelief, so the whole argument is a strawman. It's not lore, it's conflating an imaginary world with the history of our world.

 

Even so, you're allowed to make plenty of other ballsy decisions that put a target on your back and express plenty of other unpopular opinions. Why is this the line?