218 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

I have the following problems with Andrastianism:

 

1) The Exalted March on the Dales was in direct violation of Andraste's promise; the central figure of their religion promised the elves a homeland, and the Chantry betrayed that promise.

 

2) The Tevinter Chantry does not, to the best of our knowledge, condemn slavery, proving that Chantry hypocrisy is not limited to the followers of the White Divine. Andraste freed the slaves, they should try to remember that.

 

3) We have so far seen a total of one dwarven cleric (Brother Burkel) and no elven ones. It appears non-humans are being kept out of the power structures of the Chantry.

 

4) The discovery of Haven and it's Guardian, an Andrastian sect with an unbroken line of worship to Andraste and watched over by one of her disciples, should have had massive repercussions to Chantry worship. That this is not the case suggests the Chantry is more concerned with it's worldly power than ensuring the accuracy of the Chant of Light.

 

 

I also have a problem with dwarven hypocrisy; they claim the Ancestors show their favor in Provings yet stop casteless from taking part.

 

1. WOT provides a few clues you should be aware of, to the best of historical unbiased, non perspective based literature that rates God Canon, Orlais made no move to invade the Dales until after the Dalish had both assaulted Red Crossing and began a march upon Orlais, the destruction of the Dales was a result of their invasion, not Chantry Betrayal.

2. That seems more a result of Imperium politics then overt hypocrisy.

3. Elves can become Templars, they appear to merely be a rarity according to Gaider, If that is the case i find it hard to believe that Elves couldn't be ordained or even avvowed via the Chantry, So i don't see that.

4. Occasionally politics dictate Religion, Thedas isn't different from our own world in that regard.

[TheKomandorShepard]

So you're arguing Gameplay choice shouldn't be effected by the Lore, but should effect the lore?

 

The PC is a product of the world, the world isn't a product of the PC.

 

That's how i view and that's why i understand why religion is included with characters.

 

if that was in case you wouldn't have any control over your pc because world shaped him not player... pc is player avatar in da world it affect it and player decides what views pc should have...

 

 

I know Lob, I just couldn't resist having some fun.  I will not resort to another Chantry Dalish debate.  That is in danger of being as dead a horse as Merril.

 

I am not denying the possibility of atheist, just the likely hood of it from the back grounds that the DAO characters came from. The dwarves seem to be highly intolerant of those who do not worship the stone, again a Dalish atheist sounds like a contradiction in terms, the CE has a revered mother for the wedding, the couslands are highly religious and have an in house priest.  The mage is a possiblity I just don't see it being likely.

 

How being dalish enforces you being religious you can live among them but do you have to belive in their gods? And your parent belives don't mean your belives...

[Master Warder Z_]

I don't think this follows what I actually said?

 

There's no evidence that people are executed in Thedas for disbelief, so the whole argument is a strawman. It's not lore, it's conflating an imaginary world with the history of our world.

 

Even so, you're allowed to make plenty of other ballsy decisions that put a target on your back and express plenty of other unpopular opinions. Why is this the line?

 

Not within Thedas but that wasn't my point anyway, it was an Allegory comparison, my main point was this. There are within both presented games to date, strong traditional and cultural values placed upon the Andrastian faith both within Fereldan and Kirkwall, Its not an omnipresent factor by any means but it exists and it makes sense for a PC to be caught up within for one reason or another, its simply the world state.

 

Why is it the line? I am unsure, but Gaider already tweeted that Atheist players would be allowed within DAI supposedly or so i heard so it shouldn't be over much concern, its just i see it as more oft then not a rarity and product of remote location or differing tradition, Not outright reject as it is today. It isn't a cultural meme is what i am saying as it is in our own reality, Its either a result of selective belief or them never being exposed to it.

[wcholcombe]

I have the following problems with Andrastianism:

 

1) The Exalted March on the Dales was in direct violation of Andraste's promise; the central figure of their religion promised the elves a homeland, and the Chantry betrayed that promise.

 

2) The Tevinter Chantry does not, to the best of our knowledge, condemn slavery, proving that Chantry hypocrisy is not limited to the followers of the White Divine. Andraste freed the slaves, they should try to remember that.

 

3) We have so far seen a total of one dwarven cleric (Brother Burkel) and no elven ones. It appears non-humans are being kept out of the power structures of the Chantry.

 

4) The discovery of Haven and it's Guardian, an Andrastian sect with an unbroken line of worship to Andraste and watched over by one of her disciples, should have had massive repercussions to Chantry worship. That this is not the case suggests the Chantry is more concerned with it's worldly power than ensuring the accuracy of the Chant of Light.

 

 

I also have a problem with dwarven hypocrisy; they claim the Ancestors show their favor in Provings yet stop casteless from taking part.

1)Not going the Dalish/Chantry debate-but if Andraste freed the elves-your words-isn't it hypocritical of the Dalish to attack the chantry?

2) Agreed

3)We have seen 0 Shapers who were human or elven, 0 keepers who were not dalish, we have met one dwarf who was even Andrastian and he was murdered for not worshipping the stone.

4) We don't know that Haven is an unbroken line.  They are an extremely violent cult.  We don't know that what they currently practice is even in line with what was originally taught. They are actually more concerned with the protection of the ashes than they seem to actually be worshipping Andraste.

[Vit246]

"Crom, I have never prayed to you before. I have no tongue for it. No one, not even you, will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, or why we died. All that matters is that two stood against many. That's what's important! Valor pleases you, Crom... so grant me one request. Grant me revenge! And if you do not listen, then to hell with you!"

[wcholcombe]

Atheism has spanned into prehistory and was well documented in Ancient Greece. I don't think there's compelling evidence that you need a high level of modern education to grasp the concept, considering. I'm not arguing that it would be a major percentage of the population, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be your PC. Consider how much your character actually accomplished in the year they're active in DA:O. They are able to navigate multiple major political crisis and defeat the blight quicker by far than anyone to date, with just a handful of people in toe. I'd say it's not surprising, in comparison, that they might think a little outside the box when it comes to religion and philosophy.

Not denying any of this.  However, the atheism of ancient greece was distinctly based on their level of education, as was the atheism in Muslim cultures after Muhamid, it was based on logic and reason by educated men, atheism had its rise in most of Europe during and following the Renaissance-the period where they rediscovered much of what was forgotten from Ancient Greece. That is not the world that Thedas is in.

 

Look, there are tribes in Africa that as far as we know have been atheist there entire existance, they don't make totems or worship gods or have ceremonies for weddings or burials- when you die they just leave you.  But they existed isolated from other cultural influences.

 

Sorry I wasn't meaning to make this a thing, it was just my response to Lobs comment about the atheist point of view not coming back, which I didn't think ever made sense in DAO.  Thats all.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Not denying any of this.  However, the atheism of ancient greece was distinctly based on their level of education, as was the atheism in Muslim cultures after Muhamid, it was based on logic and reason by educated men, atheism had its rise in most of Europe during and following the Renaissance-the period where they rediscovered much of what was forgotten from Ancient Greece. That is not the world that Thedas is in.

 

Look, there are tribes in Africa that as far as we know have been atheist there entire existance, they don't make totems or worship gods or have ceremonies for weddings or burials- when you die they just leave you.  But they existed isolated from other cultural influences.

 

Sorry I wasn't meaning to make this a thing, it was just my response to Lobs comment about the atheist point of view not coming back, which I didn't think ever made sense in DAO.  Thats all.

It's not a problem, the discussion is about religion in Thedas, so there's no real reason it's not relevant to the topic. 

 

My argument isn't that it would be very common in Thedas, but I don't think it really follows to believe the PCs are that unintelligent, or lacking in reasoning capabilities. I mean, just look at the dialog options and the choices throughout the game. The characters mostly don't come across as backwards, uneducated throwbacks. People in Thedas are not as stupid as people in the middle ages, that's what I think people misunderstand. They might not have technology comparable to the modern world, but their level of reasoning is not that incredibly stunted. Of course, it would be boring for the real world player if everyone fit that bill, but it doesn't change the fact that this is how the world is. The "average" for Thedas isn't really comparable to the "average" for medieval Europe in basically any field. The only thing they occasionally have in common is aesthetics and, even then, it's a limited range. 

[KainD]

I think all religion is bs, and my PC will be an atheist. 

[wcholcombe]

It's not a problem, the discussion is about religion in Thedas, so there's no real reason it's not relevant to the topic. 

 

My argument isn't that it would be very common in Thedas, but I don't think it really follows to believe the PCs are that unintelligent, or lacking in reasoning capabilities. I mean, just look at the dialog options and the choices throughout the game. The characters mostly don't come across as backwards, uneducated throwbacks. People in Thedas are not as stupid as people in the middle ages, that's what I think people misunderstand. They might not have technology comparable to the modern world, but their level of reasoning is not that incredibly stunted. Of course, it would be boring for the real world player if everyone fit that bill, but it doesn't change the fact that this is how the world is. The "average" for Thedas isn't really comparable to the "average" for medieval Europe in basically any field. The only thing they occasionally have in common is aesthetics and, even then, it's a limited range. 

Really?  The only education system is provided through the church.  Colleges are few if any and are mostly limited to mages(circles) or nobility(institute of Val Royeux or the Chevalier Academy), The past 1000 years has largely been a time of semi constant warfare.  Much of the population is illiterate.  Printing systems do not exist. 

 

Where exactly do we get the idea that Thedas isn't as intellectually stunted as medieval Europe?

[LobselVith8]

1. WOT provides a few clues you should be aware of, to the best of historical unbiased, non perspective based literature that rates God Canon, Orlais made no move to invade the Dales until after the Dalish had both assaulted Red Crossing and began a march upon Orlais, the destruction of the Dales was a result of their invasion, not Chantry Betrayal.

Incorrect. WoT never reads that the Dalish historical account is incorrect. The single paragraph about the fall of the Dales reads that the attack on Red Crossing lead to an Exalted March, not that it was or wasn't in retaliation for a human incursion into elven lands.

[wcholcombe]

Master Warder Z_, on 26 Mar 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

1. WOT provides a few clues you should be aware of, to the best of historical unbiased, non perspective based literature that rates God Canon, Orlais made no move to invade the Dales until after the Dalish had both assaulted Red Crossing and began a march upon Orlais, the destruction of the Dales was a result of their invasion, not Chantry Betrayal.

Incorrect. WoT never reads that the Dalish historical account is incorrect. The single paragraph about the fall of the Dales reads that the attack on Red Crossing lead to an Exalted March, not that it was or wasn't in retaliation for a human incursion into elven lands.

For Crying Out Loud, Do the two of you really need to dance this dance again?

[Master Warder Z_]

Incorrect. WoT never reads that the Dalish historical account is incorrect. The single paragraph about the fall of the Dales reads that the attack on Red Crossing lead to an Exalted March, not that it was or wasn't in retaliation for a human incursion into elven lands.

 

Your stubborn defense of the dalish has obviously addled your senses, since you refuse to accept the Lore for what has been written, I have god canon backing me, you have doubt and speculation.

 

Maybe it didn't say the Invasion wasn't for such and such cause, but it did make it adamantly clear, Orlais only invaded once it was invaded.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Really?  The only education system is provided through the church.  Colleges are few if any and are mostly limited to mages(circles) or nobility(institute of Val Royeux or the Chevalier Academy), The past 1000 years has largely been a time of semi constant warfare.  Much of the population is illiterate.  Printing systems do not exist. 

 

Where exactly do we get the idea that Thedas isn't as intellectually stunted as medieval Europe?

By actually talking to the people of Thedas? They're articulate, rational, very arguably intelligent people all over the world. You meet casteless dwarves, city elves, apostate mages and people from every other "outcast" sect that meet this standard, as well as nobles and world leaders. Where do they get their education? Maybe it's something passed down more so through families, home education spanning generations. Maybe they get it from the community at large. I do know that we don't see from our interactions in game that the vast majority of people in Thedas are incapable of rational thought.

[LobselVith8]

1)Not going the Dalish/Chantry debate-but if Andraste freed the elves-your words-isn't it hypocritical of the Dalish to attack the chantry?

Shartan and the elven slaves liberated themselves with the help of an unknown elven accomplice: "They say that Shartan's followers stole whatever they could find to make weapons. They fought with knives of sharpened stone and glass, and with bows made from broken barrels or firewood. This bow was ox horn, made in secret over the course of months by a slave who worked in the slaughterhouses of Minrathous.

"The slave's name has been lost to history, and the verses that spoke of his deeds, stricken from the chant, but the weapon endures." - Dark Moon codex entry.

Later, Shartan and his elven followers fought alongside Andraste and her human followers to combat the Imperium to end their tyranny. I go into this because everyone seems to forget Shartan.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Lob and Master, please stop. You two know this won't go anywhere. 

[Master Warder Z_]

._. I actually left the thread because i wasn't going to continue it, I get sick of the ignoring of what WOT obviously implies though.

[LobselVith8]

Your stubborn defense of the dalish has obviously addled your senses, since you refuse to accept the Lore for what has been written, I have god canon backing me, you have doubt and speculation.

You have yet to provide anything from WoT that supports you, while I provided the Dales entry from WoT in my elven thread to address that there is no WoG about which historical account is correct.

As I've pointed out time and again, there's no WoG staying either historical account is correct; the fall of the Dales entry in WoT is clearly written without taking a side in the matter.

Maybe it didn't say the Invasion wasn't for such and such cause, but it did make it adamantly clear, Orlais only invaded once it was invaded.

The entry made it clear an Exalted March was called as a consequence of the attack on Red Crossing, nothing more.

[Mistic]

Lob and Master, please stop. You two know this won't go anywhere. 

 

Agreed. We'll never know what happened exactly with the Dales and, sincerely, it really doesn't matter now. After all, the Dalish won't abandon their traditions and religion, and Orlais isn't suddenly going to say "Oh, we're so sorry our great-great-great-great-grandparents killed your great-great-great-great-grandparents! Here, have the Dales with our blessing".

 

Personally, I think it was Hawke's fault.

[TK514]

Personally, I think it was Hawke's fault.

Only because they didn't kill Anders sooner, when they had the chance.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

As for the topic, I have to say I like the religions presented. They are all very interesting and well thought out, with while being based off real world religions they have so much unique stuff added to give them their own flair that I don't think "Oh, the Chantry is clearly this religion" anymore. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Only because they didn't kill Anders sooner, when they had the chance.

 

Damn right!

[wcholcombe]

Shartan and the elven slaves liberated themselves with the help of an unknown elven accomplice: "They say that Shartan's followers stole whatever they could find to make weapons. They fought with knives of sharpened stone and glass, and with bows made from broken barrels or firewood. This bow was ox horn, made in secret over the course of months by a slave who worked in the slaughterhouses of Minrathous.

"The slave's name has been lost to history, and the verses that spoke of his deeds, stricken from the chant, but the weapon endures." - Dark Moon codex entry.

Later, Shartan and his elven followers fought alongside Andraste and her human followers to combat the Imperium to end their tyranny. I go into this because everyone seems to forget Shartan.

Yes, I was just arguing against his statemtent that it was hypocritical of the chantry to attack a people he said Andraste freed.

[LobselVith8]

Yes, I was just arguing against his statemtent that it was hypocritical of the chantry to attack a people he said Andraste freed.

Fair enough.

If the player can determine the image of the shattered colossus (or something similar), I'm hoping a statute of Shartan can be built. He's an important historical and religious figure of the Elvhen.

[wcholcombe]

By actually talking to the people of Thedas? They're articulate, rational, very arguably intelligent people all over the world. You meet casteless dwarves, city elves, apostate mages and people from every other "outcast" sect that meet this standard, as well as nobles and world leaders. Where do they get their education? Maybe it's something passed down more so through families, home education spanning generations. Maybe they get it from the community at large. I do know that we don't see from our interactions in game that the vast majority of people in Thedas are incapable of rational thought.

Are you saying Medevial europe had no people capable of rational thought? You also encounter Petrice.  You also encounter dwarves who stubbornly hold to belligerent beliefs about the caste system, you also encounter a mage who thinks he can bring his wife back by combining pieces of women who look like her, you also encounter horribly repressive regimes and people thoughout the myriad cultures of Thedas.  Just because they are rational thinkers, doesn't mean they are educated.

[Senya]

I rather like the religions in Thedas and would be interested in roleplaying believers of each one. I have my own religion in real life, but I'm happy to have my Dwarf Inquisitor venerate the Ancestors and the Stone. I would love to play with an Andrastian Dalish Inquisitor. The irony sounds fun.