218 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

No i don't give two ****s about what random pixels believe about other pixels, I am pointing out that belief in context is only what is presented via Player option, the choices in question come from the context of the narrative but in so far as how they are presented via the PC. Respectful, Blasphemous, Sultry, Violent, Arrogant, Egoistical, Evil, Apathetic, Whatever.

I don't think a positive opinion of Andraste is inherent to the elven mindset, so I don't see why you need to lose your cool over the idea that some elves in Thedas may see her negatively. It's an opinion, nothing more.

It comes down to the choice the gamer makes, and thus i wouldn't view it again as anything but indicative of that PC choice.

Its about the way i don't measure individual belief for that of cultural belief or racial belief.

Unless if it happens to cross lines that make it so, but the example provided obviously doesn't fit said criteria.

It's an opinion about a historical figure, that's it. No need to get mad about it.

[Master Warder Z_]

I don't think a positive opinion of Andraste is inherent to the elven mindset, so I don't see why you need to lose your cool over the idea that some elves in Thedas may see her negatively. It's an opinion, nothing more.


It's an opinion about a historical figure, that's it. No need to get mad about it.

 

._.

 

I just said it was an opinion! (Just a lot more eloquently with my reasoning and context laid out)

 

And then you repeat the notion at me.

[wcholcombe]

I think it's more accurate to say some characters come across as agnostic, or skeptical but not disbelieving. Even Wynne admits when explaining the Black City that it may just be allegory. Most characters don't seem that vehemently attached to the legends, to me. I think that's why people point out Leliana and Sebastian as "religious" characters. Most characters in Dragon Age don't seem that attached to religion.

 

I'm not arguing whether it's "likely". Most people in Thedas are probably not atheists. The fact that the player could be is enough for me to support it being an option. I wouldn't even personally have my character take a hardline stance against the existence of any gods, but it seems to be something a lot of people are interested in, it's definitely not impossible and I favor people having as many options as possible. One or two dialog options for it isn't really asking for a lot of resources. 

That was my original point, it is unlikely that it would be the position of one of our characters from DAO, but was included because it would appeal to the people playing.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Their religion is a significant part of who they are, and one they refused to surrender after they lost the war. The elves who did submit to human rule were forced to give up their religious beliefs. It's why some of them get harassed by Andrastians who see them as "heathens", like the Sabrae clan, and why templars pursue them for their elven mages, since their religious views address that magic is a "gift of the Creators".

They are still Andrastians who are still shaped in some way by their religion, which is why they see the Fade and Spirits & Demons in culturally and religiously Andrastian terms.

I think some of this is true and some is not necessarily true. You can believe all spirits are dangerous and not necessarily believe all the stories the Dalish have are true. Their beliefs may have slants based on the information they were given, but when speaking of spirits we've reached a different level of belief. Spirits are something we very well know exist. You can't really deny they do. You basically have to have some impression of their nature. Being raised Andrastrian doesn't mean your view has to remain as "good spirits/bad demons", especially if you have any experience at all with them. An Adrastrian raised person could pretty easily come to the conclusion that all fade creatures are potentially dangerous based on their experience with fade creatures. They're widely available, even more so now that the veil is ripped.

 

That's basically the difference between being Andrastrian raised and Dalish raised. There are basically no elements that are inherent to all Andrastrian raised people that don't necessarily believe the religion is right, because nationality takes so much precedent, but almost all Dalish people have a huge amount of common cultural norms, regardless of whether they see the religion as literal or not. 

[wcholcombe]

I think some of this is true and some is not necessarily true. You can believe all spirits are dangerous and not necessarily believe all the stories the Dalish have are true. Their beliefs may have slants based on the information they were given, but when speaking of spirits we've reached a different level of belief. Spirits are something we very well know exist. You can't really deny they do. You basically have to have some impression of their nature. Being raised Andrastrian doesn't mean your view has to remain as "good spirits/bad demons", especially if you have any experience at all with them. An Adrastrian raised person could pretty easily come to the conclusion that all fade creatures are potentially dangerous based on their experience with fade creatures. They're widely available, even more so now that the veil is ripped.

 

That's basically the difference between being Andrastrian raised and Dalish raised. There are basically no elements that are inherent to all Andrastrian raised people that don't necessarily believe the religion is right, because nationality takes so much precedent, but almost all Dalish people have a huge amount of common cultural norms, regardless of whether they see the religion as literal or not. 

The lifestyle the dalish live-way of trees way of peace way of ???-is religiously based and set, the culture of their clans is religiously set, the idea that they maintain themselves as isolationists is religiously set-trying to retain their immortality, etc.  A dalish life revolves around religion in much the same way a buddhist or catholic monks does.

[Mistic]

Their religion is a significant part of who they are, and one they refused to surrender after they lost the war. The elves who did submit to human rule were forced to give up their religious beliefs. It's why some of them get harassed by Andrastians who see them as "heathens", like the Sabrae clan, and why templars pursue them for their elven mages, since their religious views address that magic is a "gift of the Creators".

 

I don't think, as wcholcombe said, that "the Dalish are their religion". Although I agree that their current religion is a very important part of the Dalish culture, I think there is more to that and religion can even become secondary if the necessary requirements are met. And we have a very narrow view of what is Andrastianism, since we think in White Chantry terms.

 

Let's take Tevinter. The Imperium has its own culture, different from other countries, a different outlook on magic, a different history, their own myths and way of thinking what's their place in the world. Yet they are Andrastian. The Old Gods are gone, but the Imperium remains.

[LobselVith8]

._.

 

I just said it was an opinion! (Just a lot more eloquently with my reasoning and context laid out)

 

And then you repeat the notion at me.

 

My initial point was that it was simply an opinion.

[wcholcombe]

I don't think, as wcholcombe said, that "the Dalish are their religion". Although I agree that their current religion is a very important part of the Dalish culture, I think there is more to that and religion can even become secondary if the necessary requirements are met. And we have a very narrow view of what is Andrastianism, since we think in White Chantry terms.

 

Let's take Tevinter. The Imperium has its own culture, different from other countries, a different outlook on magic, a different history, their own myths and way of thinking what's their place in the world. Yet they are Andrastian. The Old Gods are gone, but the Imperium remains.

The entire reason the dalish aren't city elves is largely their religion.  If it wasn't they might as well all move into the alienages.

[General TSAR]

Oh this gonna be good.....

 

What's better than being butthurt about religions? Being butthurt about religions in a fictional universe. 

[LobselVith8]

The lifestyle the dalish live-way of trees way of peace way of ???-is religiously based and set, the culture of their clans is religiously set, the idea that they maintain themselves as isolationists is religiously set-trying to retain their immortality, etc.  A dalish life revolves around religion in much the same way a buddhist or catholic monks does.

 

The Vir Tanadhal, the Way of Three Trees, and the Vir Atish'an, the Way of Peace.

[Master Warder Z_]

My initial point was that it was simply an opinion.

 

And my initial point was that it was an opinion!

 

But a PC chosen one.

 

 

I'm of a mind that there isn't a set mindset for the PC given that unless roleplayed otherwise their every action and reaction is done at the behest of the player, my point.

[Master Warder Z_]

Oh this gonna be good.....

 

What's better than being butthurt about religions? Being butthurt about religions in a fictional universe. 

 

Honestly why people argue over Faith is beyond me, Religion is merely a unification tool.

 

Buy into the god, Spirit, Great Demon or Flying Spaghetti Monster or no, but respect the principle that it can unite people through faith more so then most things.

[pallascedar]

Your stubborn defense of the dalish has obviously addled your senses, since you refuse to accept the Lore for what has been written, I have god canon backing me, you have doubt and speculation.

Maybe it didn't say the Invasion wasn't for such and such cause, but it did make it adamantly clear, Orlais only invaded once it was invaded.

Sorry if I'm contributing to a bad line of arguments... But anyways: it does seem inarguably true that an act of Elven aggression "started" the war, the reality of actual fault is never that simple.

It isn't clear if the attack was a result of Elven expansionism or human provocation (maybe a human raidig party killed important elves). Or maybe it is another thing entirely. The impression I always got was that war had been brewing. The Elves struck first, but something bad was going to happen anyways.

[wcholcombe]

The Vir Tanadhal, the Way of Three Trees, and the Vir Atish'an, the Way of Peace.

well the ?? were in reference to the ways that the keeper follows.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

The lifestyle the dalish live-way of trees way of peace way of ???-is religiously based and set, the culture of their clans is religiously set, the idea that they maintain themselves as isolationists is religiously set-trying to retain their immortality, etc.  A dalish life revolves around religion in much the same way a buddhist or catholic monks does.

You can believe a set of religious tenants makes logical sense in an abstract way without believing in it literally. What I'm mostly saying is, the Dalish grow up with a very distinct culture that is extremely different than any other group in Thedas. I don't believe they would necessarily give up their entire connection to all of it because they didn't necessarily believe the religion was true in a literal sense. Being a city elf, born and raised, is a hugely different experience than being raised Dalish. Actually believing the religion and believing in the culture aren't necessarily an automatic connect.

 

To draw real world connections, a lot of Christian raised atheists and agnostics still celebrate Christmas. It's a cultural thing. It's something they feel connection to, even if they don't believe in the stories, and they've applied their own meaning to it. (Family, togetherness, etc.) Culture and tradition die hard, as much or much than religion does as a piece of culture. I don't think a Dalish that doubted the reality of the legends would necessarily identify any more with a city elf than they would with anyone else outside the Dalish. It's simply not their culture.

[wcholcombe]

Oh this gonna be good.....

 

What's better than being butthurt about religions? Being butthurt about religions in a fictional universe. 

Butthurt?  No, just debating opinions on a meaningless game that we play.  Debating this isn't any more or less sensical then any of the other garbage we debate on this forum.

[Mistic]

The entire reason the dalish aren't city elves is largely their religion.  If it wasn't they might as well all move into the alienages.

 

The reason they got separated, but centuries have passed and now both groups are different enough to be considered different societies even without taking religion into consideration. You can't be a city elf without cities, for example, and preserving elven lore and traditions doesn't have to be at odds with Andrastianism (remember, I'm not talking about White Chantry doctrine, but Andrastianism).

[Master Warder Z_]

Sorry if I'm contributing to a bad line of arguments... But anyways: it does seem inarguably true that an act of Elven aggression "started" the war, the reality of actual fault is never that simple.

It isn't clear if the attack was a result of Elven expansionism or human provocation (maybe a human raidig party killed important elves). Or maybe it is another thing entirely. The impression I always got was that war had been brewing. The Elves struck first, but something bad was going to happen anyways.

 

Thread isn't the place for that topic.

[Daerog]

I like the way BW did religion in DA; I like that there is religion portrayed as an everyday thing in game.

[wcholcombe]

The reason they got separated, but centuries have passed and now both groups are different enough to be considered different societies even without taking religion into consideration. You can't be a city elf without cities, for example, and preserving elven lore and traditions doesn't have to be at odds with Andrastianism (remember, I'm not talking about White Chantry doctrine, but Andrastianism).

 

 

You can believe a set of religious tenants makes logical sense in an abstract way without believing in it literally. What I'm mostly saying is, the Dalish grow up with a very distinct culture that is extremely different than any other group in Thedas. I don't believe they would necessarily give up their entire connection to all of it because they didn't necessarily believe the religion was true in a literal sense. Being a city elf, born and raised, is a hugely different experience than being raised Dalish. Actually believing the religion and believing in the culture aren't necessarily an automatic connect.

 

To draw real world connections, a lot of Christian raised atheists and agnostics still celebrate Christmas. It's a cultural thing. It's something they feel connection to, even if they don't believe in the stories, and they've applied their own meaning to it. (Family, togetherness, etc.) Culture and tradition die hard, as much or much than religion does as a piece of culture. I don't think a Dalish that doubted the reality of the legends would necessarily identify any more with a city elf than they would with anyone else outside the Dalish. It's simply not their culture.

I will leave ya'll with this, as I am beginning to feel dizzy from running around in circles in this debate.  The dalish all put a tattoo on their face.  The tattoo they use is a symbol of their chosen personal god from the Dalish Pantheon.  The idea of a Dalish not practicing the dalish belief system makes no sense.

 

Could a dalish be exposed to Andrastianism and convert--sure, but I would no longer consider them dalish.  Whether they would be a city elf or just an elf I don't know, but they wouldn't be dalish anymore.

[Mistic]

I will leave ya'll with this, as I am beginning to feel dizzy from running around in circles in this debate.  The dalish all put a tattoo on their face.  The tattoo they use is a symbol of their chosen personal god from the Dalish Pantheon.  The idea of a Dalish not practicing the dalish belief system makes no sense.

 

Could a dalish be exposed to Andrastianism and convert--sure, but I would no longer consider them dalish.  Whether they would be a city elf or just an elf I don't know, but they wouldn't be dalish anymore.

 

You still haven't explained why Tevinter can still be Tevinter despite adopting a new religion, but the Dalish can not. Many of the current Dalish traditions had to be recreated from scarce ancient elven lore or outright invented. The Dalish consider themselves the true heirs of Arlathan, yet for all we know the Arlathan elves could be apalled by their current traditions. If religion changes, new traditions can be made. The same as in Tevinter (they still love their dragon paraphernalia despite not adoring the Old Gods, remember that).

 

However, I can't really see it happening, that's true.

[Master Warder Z_]

they still love their dragon paraphernalia

 

Who doesn't?

 

 

In fact i am a collector of various Paraphernalia myself!

[LobselVith8]

I think some of this is true and some is not necessarily true. You can believe all spirits are dangerous and not necessarily believe all the stories the Dalish have are true. Their beliefs may have slants based on the information they were given, but when speaking of spirits we've reached a different level of belief. Spirits are something we very well know exist. You can't really deny they do. You basically have to have some impression of their nature. Being raised Andrastrian doesn't mean your view has to remain as "good spirits/bad demons", especially if you have any experience at all with them. An Adrastrian raised person could pretty easily come to the conclusion that all fade creatures are potentially dangerous based on their experience with fade creatures. They're widely available, even more so now that the veil is ripped.

 

I was addressing the nuances of how the Dalish don't share the same views as Andrastians about the Fade (the Beyond) and Spirits and Demons (spirits), which we know about from conversations between Merrill and Anders:

 

Act I -

 

Anders: Maybe you don't really understand the difference between spirits and demons.

 

Merrill: Did I ask you?

 

Anders: Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations. The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor.

 

Merrill: Your "Maker" is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours.

 

Act II -

 

Anders: Do Dalish honestly not recognize the difference between demons and beneficial spirits?

 

Merrill: We've never thought of the Fade as the home of our gods. It is another realm, another people's home. No different or more foreign than, say, Orzammar.

 

Varric: You can say that again.

 

Anders: But have you never studied the types of demons? They break down very clearly into different sins--

 

Merrill: Spirits differ from each other, just as you and Hawke and Isabela are all human. More or less...

 

That's basically the difference between being Andrastrian raised and Dalish raised. There are basically no elements that are inherent to all Andrastrian raised people that don't necessarily believe the religion is right, because nationality takes so much precedent, but almost all Dalish people have a huge amount of common cultural norms, regardless of whether they see the religion as literal or not. 

 

I agree with you that people can differ on their views despite their upbringing, but I don't see why an elf would continue to be Dalish if they didn't want to be Dalish anymore. Velanna, Arianni, Merrill, and others have voluntarily left their respective clans to go their own way. Being Dalish, and remaining true to the elven culture and religion, is part of their society. That's the Dalish: "Until then, we wait, we keep to the wild border lands, we raise halla and build aravels and present a moving target to the humans around us. We try to keep hold of the old ways, to relearn what was forgotten."

 

That's what marks the difference between the Dalish and the myriad of Alienage elves across Thedas, all from different human cultures, or even the Qunari elves: keeping true to the ways of the Elvhen.

[Mistic]

Who doesn't?

 

 

In fact i am a collector of various Paraphernalia myself!

 

Yeah. I so want a dragon statue for the Inquisitor's room.

 

Talking about personalization choices, wouldn't it be good if the Inquisitor had the option to put some religious paraphernalia in their room or keep, if so they wished? Vigil's Keep had a statue of Andraste for the soldiers to pray, maybe there will be more in the keeps, but what about non-Andrastian Inquisitors?

[Master Warder Z_]

Yeah. I so want a dragon statue for the Inquisitor's room.

 

Talking about personalization choices, wouldn't it be good if the Inquisitor had the option to put some religious paraphernalia in their room or keep, if so they wished? Vigil's Keep had a statue of Andraste for the soldiers to pray, maybe there will be more in the keeps, but what about non-Andrastian Inquisitors?

 

Cool feature, probably will not be implemented, but cool feature non the less.

 

And I'd say unfurnished Bare Stone, Various Dalish Statuettes and perhaps a statue of Andraste for the followers of the Faith.