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[Master Warder Z_]

 keeping true to the ways of the Elvhen.

 

 

From you're and dalish perspective maybe.

 

To me that are simply a minority stuck in a past obsessed rut.

[LobselVith8]

I don't think, as wcholcombe said, that "the Dalish are their religion". Although I agree that their current religion is a very important part of the Dalish culture, I think there is more to that and religion can even become secondary if the necessary requirements are met. And we have a very narrow view of what is Andrastianism, since we think in White Chantry terms.

 

Let's take Tevinter. The Imperium has its own culture, different from other countries, a different outlook on magic, a different history, their own myths and way of thinking what's their place in the world. Yet they are Andrastian. The Old Gods are gone, but the Imperium remains.

 

It's integral to who they are, and the society they chose to continue living in. It's part of the importance of the vallaslin: "When the children of our people came of age, they earn the privilege of wearing the vallaslin, the blood writing. It sets us apart from the shemlen, and from the elves who have thrown their lot in with them. It reminds us that we will never again surrender our traditions and beliefs."

 

From their positive view on magic as a gift of the Creators to the vallaslin, which is viewed with "great reverence. The one who is to gain the vallaslin must prepare by meditating on the gods and the ways of our people, and by purifying the body and the skin."

[wcholcombe]

You still haven't explained why Tevinter can still be Tevinter despite adopting a new religion, but the Dalish can not. Many of the current Dalish traditions had to be recreated from scarce ancient elven lore or outright invented. The Dalish consider themselves the true heirs of Arlathan, yet for all we know the Arlathan elves could be apalled by their current traditions. If religion changes, new traditions can be made. The same as in Tevinter (they still love their dragon paraphernalia despite not adoring the Old Gods, remember that).

 

However, I can't really see it happening, that's true.

yes but see, I don't see that as a comparison.  Tevinter was defined by Magister lords, not their worship of the old gods.  An attempt was made to change that aspect, but they reverted back.

 

The dalish are their religion. To not practice the dalish way of life/religion is to not be dalish.

 

I would liken it to the Jewish faith. Jewish is both a religion and a people.  The large number of Jews I know are for the most part very accepting of different view points. However, they are definite on one thing, if you don't practice the Jewish faith you are not Jewish.

[LobselVith8]

From you're and dalish perspective maybe.

 

To me that are simply a minority stuck in a past obsessed rut.

 

I don't see their refusal to convert and acquiesce to the Chantry as being stuck in the past. I respect their refusal to surrender their religion and their culture, and to keep true to traditions that they've held onto despite the Imperium and the Chantry of Andraste.

[Master Warder Z_]

I don't see their refusal to convert and acquiesce to the Chantry as being stuck in the past. I respect their refusal to surrender their religion and their culture, and to keep true to traditions that they've held onto despite the Imperium and the Chantry of Andraste.

 

Don't worry Lob, i don't expect you to.

 

Your personal perspective aside, doesn't change that they view themselves as the last true members of their race.

 

Doesn't change a lot about them.

 

Think we are just about done here on this.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I agree with you that people can differ on their views despite their upbringing, but I don't see why an elf would continue to be Dalish if they didn't want to be Dalish anymore. Velanna, Arianni, Merrill, and others have voluntarily left their respective clans to go their own way. Being Dalish, and remaining true to the elven culture and religion, is part of their society. That's the Dalish: "Until then, we wait, we keep to the wild border lands, we raise halla and build aravels and present a moving target to the humans around us. We try to keep hold of the old ways, to relearn what was forgotten."

 

That's what marks the difference between the Dalish and the myriad of Alienage elves across Thedas, all from different human cultures, or even the Qunari elves: keeping true to the ways of the Elvhen.

 

I realize what the Dalish beliefs are on fade creature. I agree with them, they're probably right. My theory on fade creatures is that they're just a sliding scale. I think they can all make conscious decisions to be good, bad or neutral. I think the evidence suggests that. This is a large part of why I think it shouldn't be tied to the race you choose. It makes strong logical sense to believe all fade creatures can be dangerous, especially after the in-game experience we'll likely have with them yet again.

 

What I'm saying about the Dalish is not that they can convert to the Andrastrian religion and remain Dalish, necessarily. It's more that they don't have to believe the religion literally to believe in the culture. You can't really believe in the Keeper as an appropriate ruler or a lot of the other Dalish norms if you're Andrastrian, but you don't really have to be Dalish in a literal religious sense to support them and believe the stories make an effective allegory that should be preserved. 

 

But, if a Dalish person has become an Inquisitioner, have they really not already left the Dalish in basically the same sense as Merrill and Velanna? When it comes to that point, I'm a little unsure how different the end is. It seemed to me that Merrill and Velanna still pretty strongly honored the Dalish traditions and beliefs, despite leaving. I'm not arguing that separation means you've given up on being Dalish, it seems to not necessarily be the case, to me. I didn't get that impression from the Dalish warden. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you meant about those characters?

[LobselVith8]

Don't worry Lob, i don't expect you to.

 

Your personal perspective aside, doesn't change that they view themselves as the last true members of their race.

 

That's not true of all Dalish. That's only true for some of them. Lanaya doesn't look down elven protagonists, or elves in general who live in the cities. Merrill considers elves who aren't Dalish to be elves, and she believes in the Creators and in the history of Arlathan. We even have a Dalish clan adopting a human infant (Aveline the Knight, the historical figure who changed the opportunities of women in Thedas forever), so it's not as though all the Dalish are anti-human, either.

 

Doesn't change a lot about them.

 

Think we are just about done here on this.

 

You seem to be conflating the view of some Dalish elves with all of them, so I suppose we are done.

[Master Warder Z_]

That's not true of all Dalish. That's only true for some of them. Lanaya doesn't look down elven protagonists, or elves in general who live in the cities. Merrill considers elves who aren't Dalish to be elves, and she believes in the Creators and in the history of Arlathan. We even have a Dalish clan adopting a human infant (Aveline the Knight, the historical figure who changed the opportunities of women in Thedas forever), so it's not as though all the Dalish are anti-human, either.

 

 

You seem to be conflating the view of some Dalish elves with all of them, so I suppose we are done.

That wasn't i was trying to convey, but we will leave that for the moment. 

 

Individuality isn't what i was pointing at, it was culturally, and that my friend seems fairly consistent across the broad. Its just one of many things though that you would paint off as certain individuals despite the belief of this notion being quite widespread, its appeared in four clans thus far in universe, how many more until you think its indicative of the majority? Again note i am indicative of this being a cultural and not an individual trait.

 

No i am inferring that their oral myths are an indicator of a portion of their culture that isn't overly covered except if you pay attention to their interactions. And that cultural is built upon a principle of ethnic Nationalism and Superiority.

 

I'd point out how this bares striking similarities to various groups through out own history which individual may or may not have supported such notions but collectively espoused them, i view the Dalish in a near similar light.

[LobselVith8]

I realize what the Dalish beliefs are on fade creature. I agree with them, they're probably right. My theory on fade creatures is that they're just a sliding scale. I think they can all make conscious decisions to be good, bad or neutral. I think the evidence suggests that. This is a large part of why I think it shouldn't be tied to the race you choose. It makes strong logical sense to believe all fade creatures can be dangerous, especially after the in-game experience we'll likely have with them yet again.

 

What I'm saying about the Dalish is not that they can convert to the Andrastrian religion and remain Dalish, necessarily. It's more that they don't have to believe the religion literally to believe in the culture. You can't really believe in the Keeper as an appropriate ruler or a lot of the other Dalish norms if you're Andrastrian, but you don't really have to be Dalish in a literal religious sense to support them and believe the stories make an effective allegory that should be preserved.

 

Maybe we both misunderstood one another, since I thought you were addressing a Dalish elf adopting the Andrastian faith. I think there are variants among all the People regarding how they view things, from the Creators to the Eternal City, and their plight.

 

But, if a Dalish person has become an Inquisitor, have they really not already left the Dalish in basically the same sense as Merrill and Velanna? When it comes to that point, I'm a little unsure how different the end is. It seemed to me that Merrill and Velanna still pretty strongly honored the Dalish traditions and beliefs, despite leaving. I'm not arguing that separation means you've given up on being Dalish, it seems to not necessarily be the case, to me. I didn't get that impression from the Dalish warden. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you meant about those characters?

 

I suppose it might depend on the respective player, although I get the feeling some dislike the Dalish and their indigenous culture and religion, and would simply prefer to play as an Andrastian City Elf instead. I'd rather play as a Dalish Inquisitor who remains true to his faith and his cultural views, like Merrill did. I'm hoping the protagonist can voice opinions and views that reflect an elven mindset, including using terms like 'the Beyond', 'the Eternal City', and 'spirits', and being able to stay true to the worship of the Creators despite being in a predominantly Andrastian setting.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Maybe we both misunderstood one another, since I thought you were addressing a Dalish elf adopting the Andrastian faith. I think there are variants among all the People regarding how they view things, from the Creators to the Eternal City, and their plight.

 

I suppose it might depend on the respective player, although I get the feeling some dislike the Dalish and their indigenous culture and religion, and would simply prefer to play as an Andrastian City Elf instead. I'd rather play as a Dalish Inquisitor who remains true to his faith and his cultural views, like Merrill did. I'm hoping the protagonist can voice opinions and views that reflect an elven mindset, including using terms like 'the Beyond', 'the Eternal City', and 'spirits', and being able to stay true to the worship of the Creators despite being in a predominantly Andrastian setting.

I would be happy if Dalish were able to make comments supporting the Dalish faith. I'd like for all the races to have choices between at least their "traditional" racial religion and general skepticism. In DA:O my favorite origins were the Dalish elf, as a believer in the Dalish faith, and a Circle mage, as a skeptic. It would be nice to have similar choices again. Even in Origins I strongly favored removal of the Chantry in the handling of mages, so it didn't make sense for me to identify as an Andrastrian as a circle mage that rejected most of their beliefs. That's a large part of why skepticism, but not necessarily full atheism, is an important option to me, generally.

[LobselVith8]

That wasn't i was trying to convey, but we will leave that for the moment. 

 

Individuality isn't what i was pointing at, it was culturally, and that my friend seems fairly consistent across the broad. Its just one of many things though that you would paint off as certain individuals despite the belief of this notion being quite widespread, its appeared in four clans thus far in universe, how many more until you think its indicative of the majority? Again note i am indicative of this being a cultural and not an individual trait.

 

No i am inferring that their oral myths are an indicator of a portion of their culture that isn't overly covered except if you pay attention to their interactions. And that cultural is built upon a principle of ethnic Nationalism and Superiority.

 

I'd point out how this bares striking similarities to various groups through out own history which individual may or may not have supported such notions but collectively espoused them, i view the Dalish in a near similar light.

 

A comparison was made with the Sephardic Jews at Dragon Central, the old board where Gaider shared some insight into their culture and lifestyle. I see real world parallels as well between the Elvhen and certain groups; the Dalish come across as being similar to the Taino of Puerto Rico to me, struggling to maintain their culture and religion despite the perils of imperialism and conquest. The use of the term 'the People' by the Dalish is also similar to Native American culture as well, and I see other similarities.

[Master Warder Z_]

A comparison was made with the Sephardic Jews at Dragon Central, the old board where Gaider shared some insight into their culture and lifestyle. I see real world parallels as well between the Elvhen and certain groups; the Dalish come across as being similar to the Taino of Puerto Rico to me, struggling to maintain their culture and religion despite the perils of imperialism and conquest. The use of the term 'the People' by the Dalish is also similar to Native American culture as well, and I see other similarities.

 

I know the thread.

 

I see, I've oft times accredited them to being similar to the Visigoths or Goths in so far as an Culture that while was adapted several times under foreign conquest it remained for the most part until foreign religion was imparted an inclusive and ethnically singular culture. They along with other PreChristianity Germanic pagan cultures were for the most part overly inclusive and isolationist until the arrival of the Roman Empire and later the franks and a whole host of others, Historically the Visigoths are credited with the sacking of Rome in 410 AD which is credited by many as the final death bell of the Western Roman Empire, but we can discuss that elsewhere the parallel i was trying to establish was simply that the Dalish share a cultural view of themselves as Elven, The Last of the Elves.

[CELL55]

I feel they are largely misunderstood. How people on these forums see the religions often has far more to do with their own biases and baggage than anything about the religion in question itself: a failure to distinguish from real world religions due to superficial similarities, a failure to distinguish religious doctrine from secular policies and motivations, a failure to distinguish members of a faith from the faith itself.

 

In general, I get the impression from these forums that many people feel that if X religion were destroyed and barred from practice, the evil's of mankind would greatly diminish and more people would become properly enlightened thinkers who agree with them.

 

Personally, I feel that's a confusion of correlation and causation that says more about the opponent of organized religion than the religion itself.

 

+1 I like this human! He understands!

 

In all honesty the amount of difference that one's PC's religion impacts the narrative seems to be largely contained within one's own head. It would make about as much difference if my human noble believed in the Maker as he did in a sentient bowl of pudding. In game terms what matters is how my PC's beliefs influence their actions, but again, motivations are largely contained within the player's head.

 

I always play as whatever religion fits the character's background the best, whenever it is that I bother to remember it at all. Usually the only time I do remember is when my PC is directly asked. The rest of the time motivations are simply drawn from what I've chosen the character's personality to be, what I've determined their upbringing to be like, and what I think might be interesting at the moment.

[CybAnt1]

The same way I feel about the religions on Earth. I couldn't care less. 

 

In D & D, picking a religion may affect what spells you can cast. (Cleric Domains). It also relates to your alignment (your deity is usually from the plane that represents your alignment). 

 

In this game, it's just flavor ... but admittedly, interesting flavor. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The entire premise of the Dalish is keeping true to their cultural and religious views. I'm not sure I see the point to wanting to play as a Dalish who is simply Dalish in name only; it's akin to wanting to play as a member of the Chantry clergy who doesn't believe in the Maker. To each their own, I suppose.

Because the developers gave us no other choice but to be Dalish-born in Inquisition if we want to play elves. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

I like it, it's realistic to how things operated at the time period in our own world, and given the history of thedas it's easy to see why the one large organized religion also has a lot of political power to it. I think it adds another layer to the world we have to think about, and another avenue for story potential in having a double edged sword in essence, offering a lot of relief work, humanitarian work, and really one of the only other power who can challenge the lords of the land, but also has a lot of strings attached to those good deeds.

[Dean_the_Young]

+1 I like this human! He understands!

 

In all honesty the amount of difference that one's PC's religion impacts the narrative seems to be largely contained within one's own head. It would make about as much difference if my human noble believed in the Maker as he did in a sentient bowl of pudding. In game terms what matters is how my PC's beliefs influence their actions, but again, motivations are largely contained within the player's head.

 

I always play as whatever religion fits the character's background the best, whenever it is that I bother to remember it at all. Usually the only time I do remember is when my PC is directly asked. The rest of the time motivations are simply drawn from what I've chosen the character's personality to be, what I've determined their upbringing to be like, and what I think might be interesting at the moment.

 

It's not something I normally do, but I actually have an itch to play a devout Andrastian for one of my later inquisitors. My inevitable Qunari-Inquisitor will definitely be played as an Andrastian as much as possible, in a 'has been since before the game' sort of way, but I'd be amused and interested in role playing a Dalish elf who grows disillusioned with the elven culture and gradually adopts tenants of Andrastianism.

 

I doubt it will get much support outside of head-canon interpretations and fiction, but I am just as interested in the Inquisitor being able to have a positive/respectful relationship with the Chantry as some are interested in having an extremely antagonistic one.

[BlueMagitek]

while the Andrastian Dalish was a good jibe at Lob, I don't really see it as being at all realistic.  An atheist dwarf would be more plausible to me than an Andrastian Dalish.

 

Considering the Stone is one of the more active forces as far as Thedasian deities go, that seems to be something of a flat-earth character.  Unless it is a top side dwarf.

 

Anyway, I like the differing religions, the similar split over theology of the Chantries, I really like the Stone / Ancestor veneration & the Qun.

[Lillian]

I have the following problems with Andrastianism:

 

1) The Exalted March on the Dales was in direct violation of Andraste's promise; the central figure of their religion promised the elves a homeland, and the Chantry betrayed that promise.

 

2) The Tevinter Chantry does not, to the best of our knowledge, condemn slavery, proving that Chantry hypocrisy is not limited to the followers of the White Divine. Andraste freed the slaves, they should try to remember that.

 

3) We have so far seen a total of one dwarven cleric (Brother Burkel) and no elven ones. It appears non-humans are being kept out of the power structures of the Chantry.

 

4) The discovery of Haven and it's Guardian, an Andrastian sect with an unbroken line of worship to Andraste and watched over by one of her disciples, should have had massive repercussions to Chantry worship. That this is not the case suggests the Chantry is more concerned with it's worldly power than ensuring the accuracy of the Chant of Light.

 

 

I also have a problem with dwarven hypocrisy; they claim the Ancestors show their favor in Provings yet stop casteless from taking part.

You are preaching to the choir right now, yes!!!! Yes a million times over! The chantry is the epitomy of hypocrisy in their reverence of Andraste.

[myahele]

I prefer Dragon worship since its a symbiotic relationship. You protect them, they give you powers. I just wonder why the reavers in Haven didn't ask permission to drink the blood of their dragon overlords. Instead they drank wyvern blood.

[wcholcombe]

I prefer Dragon worship since its a symbiotic relationship. You protect them, they give you powers. I just wonder why the reavers in Haven didn't ask permission to drink the blood of their dragon overlords. Instead they drank wyvern blood.

No dragons have given powers since the old gods. Dragon cults don't get powers as the grand dragons aren't sentient. They are just big animals. Gaider said so.

[Master Warder Z_]

No dragons have given powers since the old gods. Dragon cults don't get powers as the grand dragons aren't sentient. They are just big animals. Gaider said so.

 

Makes no sense, but yeah its confirmed.

 

._.

[wcholcombe]

You are preaching to the choir right now, yes!!!! Yes a million times over! The chantry is the epitomy of hypocrisy in their reverence of Andraste.

And this is what annoys me. All religions in Thedas and the real world have their hypocrasies.

Chantry/Dwarves/Dalish/Qun/Imperial Chantry. All have plenty of hypocritical beliefs.

[Master Warder Z_]

And this is what annoys me. All religions in Thedas and the real world have their hypocrasies.

Chantry/Dwarves/Dalish/Qun/Imperial Chantry. All have plenty of hypocritical beliefs.

 

Goes hand in hand with Faith, Creed and alike i think.

 

Even the Tao has a few hypocritical tenants but...well we just overlook that because its a beautiful belief system.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

And this is what annoys me. All religions in Thedas and the real world have their hypocrasies.

Chantry/Dwarves/Dalish/Qun/Imperial Chantry. All have plenty of hypocritical beliefs.

 

 

Goes hand in hand with Faith, Creed and alike i think.

 

Even the Tao has a few hypocritical tenants but...well we just overlook that because its a beautiful belief system.

In truth, it goes with any organized anything really. Governments, workplaces, communities, etc.