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The Ostagar Campaign: Military Decision-Making and Imperfect Information in the Dragon Age


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Aimi

Aimi
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WARNING: This post contains a lot of words. Many of them are long words. Some of them aren't even English words. Do not read this post if you don't like to do a lot of thinking or reading.

Introduction
 
It has come to my attention that there is a considerable amount of disagreement among forumites about the way stuff worked in the Battle of Ostagar. Viewpoints on the battle are deliberately contrasted in the game; different characters have different interpretations about the battle, and those different interpretations play a key role in one of the most important conflicts in the game itself: the civil war and the Landsmeet.
 
As I can tell, the basic question is whether the Battle of Ostagar was a 'winnable' battle for the Fereldan military, but it's invariably connected to a larger question, namely: who is to blame for the way the battle ultimately turned out? Some blame Teyrn Loghain; others, King Cailan.
 
I believe that, so far, people have not really thought about the battle in systematic ways. Although different interpretations are presented, people either fully accept one or fully accept another - or they ignore the issue entirely. Many people have not had education in military topics and therefore may not consider the logic behind various positions. All in all, it's a bit of a mess, really.
 
I propose to use this thread to take apart the Ostagar campaign as comprehensively as I can with the information provided in the game, and use that to draw out some conclusions about the decisions to fight - or not fight - at Ostagar. This will include an analysis of the various viewpoints expressed on the battle by characters in the game; we shouldn't take Loghain or Alistair at his word when he discusses what happened, but rather we should look at what he has to say critically. I will also take a look at what I believe are the most common forum viewpoints on the various people and subjects relating to the campaign, and the extent to which they have a basis in reality.
 
Unfortunately, I will not answer the question of whether the Battle of Ostagar was winnable. I don't believe we can ever know that, without Word of Gaider or somebody else to inform us. It didn't happen that way, so it's impossible to know. All we can do is speak in terms of probabilities.
 
Cailan's Beliefs
 
First, let's go through the logic that the king was operating under and see if it made any sense.
 
Cailan's main objective appears to have been to fight and defeat the Blight at the Gray Wardens' side, winning undying glory in combat and crushing the primary threat to Thedosian civilization. To that end, the king brought many of his troops to the fortified position at Ostagar, aided by a contingent of Fereldan Grey Wardens.
 
Was this wise? In the game, Cailan is depicted as not having much interest in military affairs, delegating command and "strategies" to his generals while focusing on the glory of combat and on the Gray Wardens in particular. These are not promising opinions for a commander to hold. Still, the fact that he wasn't interested in command and control does not automatically devalue the decisions he made.
 
First and foremost, Cailan's focus on the Gray Wardens was fundamentally correct. To end a Blight, you must kill the archdemon leading it; to kill the archdemon, you need Gray Wardens. It is impossible to kill an archdemon without them. Furthermore, Wardens are more valuable than other warriors when fighting darkspawn even if there is no Blight. It would be silly to claim that Wardens are all that one needs to take on an army of darkspawn, but taking one on without Wardens is a dicey proposition.
 
Secondly, Cailan's choice of the Ostagar position was also wise. This is not as unequivocally true as the thing about the Gray Wardens, so it requires some elaboration.
 
As a fortification, Ostagar was a better place to fight, tactically, than any other place we know of in the region. Fortified places are good for the defender: they offer his troops cover (improving their survivability) and place obstacles in the way of his enemies (decreasing their survivability). If you have the option, barring extenuating circumstances, fighting from a fortress is better than fighting anywhere else.
 
Ostagar also sat at a choke point in the terrain that made it extremely difficult to move large armies out of the Korcari Wilds without first controlling the fortress itself. (This information comes from the Codex, and there is no reason to suspect it of being untrue.) Fighting at Ostagar meant that it would be very difficult for the darkspawn to reach the northern Fereldan lowlands without first going through the Fereldan army. North of Ostagar, the terrain gets flatter and easier to navigate; the Korcari Wilds thin out until they yield to farmland and some rolling hills.
 
Compared to much of the rest of the kingdom, it's also relatively easy to amass and supply an army at Ostagar, because of its connection to the Imperial Highway. From the main settlements of Ferelden, one can travel to Ostagar on a raised stone road, not subject to the vicissitudes of most kinds of weather (mud, for instance, becomes virtually irrelevant) or terrain. That lends the position further value: it's not just that the Fereldans can access the fortress more easily, but that the darkspawn, once they are north of Ostagar, can themselves take advantage of the highway and move more quickly.
 
So: the Ostagar fortifications maximized the Fereldan army's combat power, provided an important operational bulwark against darkspawn incursions to the north, and could be supplied by the rest of the kingdom relatively easily.
 
The way that the Fereldans intended to fight the darkspawn is also reasonable, on the face of it. Defending Ostagar with a smaller force that can use the fortifications to survive long enough to buy time made tactical sense: the darkspawn would have to commit to the attack on Ostagar and deploy their forces to assault the position, whereupon Loghain's larger detachment would be able to fall on the darkspawn rear or flank and destroy them. This basic plan and variants of it is simple, but it is also a proven winner in military circles. It uses the fortifications to greatest effect, to attract and blunt the assault of a larger force, while also adding the effectiveness of a shock charge against an unprotected flank that is the hallmark of offensive operations. More crudely, it's a classic "hammer and anvil" maneuver. A real-world comparison might be the Battle of Muret, during the Albigensian Crusade in 1213. A fictional one would be the Battle of the Fields of Pelennor in the Lord of the Rings series. If one were going to fight at Ostagar, the plan that was adopted for the battle was a sound one; it is difficult to think of a better way to use the army to fight there.

 

One might point out that Cailan's plan had many authors, most notably Loghain himself. That's fine; I don't believe that Cailan was a military genius or anything, and he was, again, famously averse to any thinking about stuff like strategy or tactics. What matters is less that Cailan's plan was not actually articulated by him, and more that it was Cailan who actually followed it, in sharp contrast to Loghain's eventual conduct. 
 
Cailan does not, however, get a pass on other aspects of his conduct. For example, his lukewarm attitude toward numbers is troubling. It is military orthodoxy to avoid splitting one's forces. Concentrate the most men possible at the best place possible and use them in the best way possible. The king didn't even manage to follow the first one of those dicta. Cailan failed to take advantage of the forces under the command of the arl of Redcliffe, and showed little interest in pursuing the matter. True, there would be costs to bringing Arl Eamon's men; they would increase the Ostagar forces' requirements of supplies, for example. Cailan, however, seemed to care more about 'getting in on the glory' than anything else.
 
In the event, of course, it did not matter that Redcliffe troops weren't at the battle, because even if Cailan had brought them, they would not have reached the field before the Fereldan army was defeated. ("Could be here in a week" doesn't work when the battle will be fought that evening.) Duncan's comment about Eamon 'reminding' Cailan about their existence implies that those soldiers could have departed Redcliffe earlier had they been given orders earlier, perhaps in time to make it to Ostagar, but we don't know for certain.
 
On the face of it, then, the way that Cailan wanted to fight at Ostagar makes good sense. Loghain, however, raised some salient objections to it. Let's see if those hold any water.
 
Loghain's Opinions
 
To start with, let's look at Loghain's bona fides. By the Battle of Ostagar, Loghain mac Tir had a long-standing successful reputation as a great leader of men, an excellent tactician, and the closest thing to a national hero that a pre-national entity like Ferelden could possibly have. He was a key architect of the Fereldan resistance's war effort against Orlais and the Meghrenite regime, he was the hero of the Battle of the Dane, and he remained a key military authority and one of the most prominent aristocrats in the country.
 
This would appear to compare well with Cailan's cavalier attitude, boredom with 'strategy', and overall glory-hunting. Nevertheless, that's not any reason to take what Loghain might have to say uncritically. For one thing, this is effectively a pre-institutional military we're talking about here. Loghain had no staff system, no effective cartography, no bird's eye view, and may not even have had an accurate count of his own forces. These are no deficiencies of his, personally, but they are conditions endemic to all warfare before the industrial age. That meant command and control took a lot of guessing and a lot of gambling. Skill was relevant, but even generals widely agreed to be 'skilled' were often horrifically deficient in what modern observers would describe as basic military knowledge.
 
Here's an example. Robert E. Lee is generally regarded as having been one of the most competent military minds of the nineteenth century. He frequently exhibited what observers would refer to as 'military genius', applying troops to the right spot at the right time, and with that skill he won a great deal of battles in the American Civil War. Yet Lee's thought process relating to these battles was actually kind of primitive. His understanding of the relative forces at any given point was vague and colored by inaccuracy (e.g. an exaggerated belief in the military quality of his own army). When he made the decision to attack, he would often do it simply because he had a gut feeling that it was a good idea as anything else. This sometimes served him brilliantly, as at the Second Battle of Manassas, where his forces virtually destroyed an enemy army in one of the most comprehensive victories of the entire war; sometimes, it served him incredibly poorly, as at Gettysburg, where he got his army into a fight against enormous odds and ended up losing the largest and bloodiest battle in the history of the American continent.
 
The excellent military historian Dennis Showalter once wrote that "ratiocination is a staff function". A commander and his staff are supposed to bounce ideas off of each other, work out the logic behind them. Given a commander's intent, a staff should be able to help him formulate the best way to accomplish that intent. Lee didn't have a staff, although sometimes he talked things over with individual subordinates, and he was notorious for issuing vague orders that failed to specify intent. (This is in sharp contrast to one of his Federal opponents, Ulysses S. Grant, who wrote fantastic orders and who developed one of the great early staff systems of any military in the world.) Loghain didn't even have as much as Lee had. When he made the enormous decision to retreat from Ostagar, he didn't talk it over with his subordinates at all. He did not express his intent, and he did not offer his subordinates any chance to play devil's advocate. In fact, his lieutenant, Ser Cauthrien, was shocked and surprised at the order to retreat, and had to be physically coerced into issuing it to her men. This does not speak well of Loghain's military ability, and hints at significant hypocrisy. He demanded latitude from the king in interpreting his orders, but did not offer that same latitude toward his own subordinates.
 
Gut feeling and instinct comprised a very high proportion of a given preindustrial commander's rationale for doing anything, and that should make us intrinsically skeptical about anything any such authority might believe about a military situation. Loghain might have had the military ability of an Alexander the Great (I doubt that very strongly, but let's be charitable), and even that is still far less than even a modern captain would be able to draw on for a modern battle. So Loghain's military opinion may have had more weight than Cailan's. But it's not that much more weight...and it certainly doesn't make Loghain incontrovertibly right and Cailan incontrovertibly wrong when they do disagree.
 
With that in mind, let's bring up Loghain's objections to Cailan's plan.
 
Firstly, Loghain accused Cailan of being too attached to the Gray Wardens and too reliant on their skills. (The novel The Calling gives some context about Loghain's opinions regarding the Wardens' unreliability.) It's hard to see how this holds water, because again, it is impossible to defeat a Blight without the Wardens, and it is much easier to fight darkspawn with their participation. Fighting an archdemon necessarily relies on the Wardens' presence and military skill. It doesn't matter if they're politically unreliable, because without them, you don't have a ghost of a chance against the darkspawn.
 
It's also unclear why Loghain is bringing this up. He suggests that relying too much on the Wardens is unwise, but doesn't offer a reason why this might be the case, nor does he have an alternative plan in mind. What ought to be done with the Wardens, if not using them as the core of the king's troops at Ostagar? Should they be with Loghain's flanking troops instead? Employed as some form of reserve? What exactly are we talking about here? Without some form of alternative plan, all Loghain's complaint about the Wardens amounts to is innuendo.
 
Secondly, Loghain suggests that the situation for the battle is unfavorable. This is the claim that he repeats later, especially at the Landsmeet, and also mentions during the Return to Ostagar DLC if he is brought along. It bears more examining.
 
The odds for fighting at Ostagar may very well have been against the Fereldans. A variety of opinions are offered about this subject over the course of both games. Elric Maraigne claims that even Cailan knew that he was doomed to die there, but this is probably just projection, because the king's observed actions certainly don't bear it out, whereas Elric has strong personal psychological grounds for believing something like that even if it isn't true. Aveline Vallen and Alistair both claim that the battle could've been won if the king's men were not betrayed, but they are both bitter veterans of the fighting who had no way of knowing the overall course of the fighting and were searching for an easy person to blame. Loghain himself is unreliable on this point; without a view of the battlefield at the very least, there's no possible way for him to have known if the king's troops were doomed, and he didn't have such a view. All he could see was the Tower of Ishal. He also has potential reasons for wanting to lie about his own motivations, especially if you believe that Loghain betrayed the king instead of merely cutting his losses and retreating.
 
Embedded Counterfactuals
 
However, that stuff is arguably irrelevant. What matters most about Loghain's decision is not that the situation at Ostagar might have been unfavorable, but the unspoken assumption inherent in that statement - that by retreating and sacrificing the king and his men, he would improve Ferelden's ability to fight the Blight at a later date. This is something called an "embedded counterfactual" - a judgment that turns on a claim that if something were done in a different way, it would work better. And it's crucial for assessing decision-making. A decision is only wrong if there is a better alternative.
 
So Loghain's alternative to committing his army to the battle at Ostagar was to withdraw, leaving the king, the king's men, and the Wardens to die in order to, I guess, buy time or something. On the face of it, this is outright wrong, because without Wardens, you can't defeat the Blight. Retreating effectively destroys Ferelden's war effort.
 
One can make the argument that Loghain either A: did not know that Wardens were necessary to kill the archdemon or B: did not believe that Ferelden faced an actual Blight, as evidenced by his comment at the Ostagar war council that his troops hadn't sighted any dragons in the Wilds. This would mitigate the colossal strategic error he made in abandoning the Wardens to their fate; it would mean that he screwed up because he didn't know any better. Still, either way, it's a screwup of rather disastrous proportions, magnified by the fact that he made Wardens persona non grata in Ferelden after the battle and ordered them to be hunted down. If he merely believed that the Wardens with the king could be sacrificed to buy Ferelden time to defeat the Blight, then it's easy to see where the orders to hunt down any remaining Wardens came from: his conspiracy theories. The Calling suggested that Loghain may have believed that the Wardens had created some sort of coterie around the kings of Ferelden to influence the king's decisions in a bad way; Cailan made oblique reference to this belief at Ostagar and Loghain himself brought it up at the Landsmeet. He also appeared to connect the Wardens and the king together with nebulous "Orlesian" interests in this conspiracy.
 
This is beginning to create a picture of Loghain not as a Snidely Whiplash style of cartoon villain but as a man who may have honestly believed in some things that happened to be very, very wrong and who made military decisions based on those beliefs. Still, that leaves us with assessing the other aspects of Loghain's plan. Even if we ignore the disastrous consequences of losing the Gray Wardens, does Loghain's effort to combat the Blight make sense?
 
The counterfactual embedded in the decision to retreat from Ostagar is that Loghain could have defeated the Blight in some other way. Presumably, this would take the form of a military engagement of some kind. What other places in Ferelden offered the sorts of tactical advantages that Ostagar possessed? We certainly know of a few other fortresses in the region. Redcliffe and Denerim both seem like strong candidates; both are fortified, and both are important enough for the darkspawn to want to attack them. Highever might work, although Howe did enough damage to the place that it probably wouldn't be as useful as the alternatives. Smaller cities like Amaranthine and keeps like Vigil's Keep would be less effective, because the darkspawn could always avoid them.
 
Yet this approach yields other problems, because in deciding not to fight at Ostagar Loghain effectively opens up the rest of Ferelden to pillage and depredation. There is no other place to stop the darkspawn south of Lothering, and Lothering itself is not well fortified. It makes more sense to fight at Ostagar with the whole army than at Lothering with a piece of it. After Lothering, the country opens up dramatically; from there, the darkspawn can use the Imperial Highway to reach most points in the country with relative ease, and the main agricultural regions of the country are also easy pickings. Once they reach Lothering, the darkspawn become a vastly greater threat to the population of Ferelden.
 
As a Fereldan leader, Loghain should have an ethical responsibility to the people of Ferelden anyway. But let's say he doesn't, and evaluate the position simply from a military point of view. Allowing the darkspawn to reach Lothering and attack the Fereldan populace directly harms the basis of Loghain's ability to make war. In order to supply his army, he needs arms and armor from local industry. In order to feed his army, he needs the produce of Ferelden's farmlands. In order to clothe his army, he needs textiles from Fereldan villages. In order to pay his army, he needs the receipts of Ferelden's taxpayers. If those people fall under darkspawn threat, Loghain's ability to make war is dramatically reduced. He already weakened the army by withdrawing from Ostagar; he will weaken it more by allowing the darkspawn to invade Ferelden.
 
That, at least, is objective. I have a hypothesis about why Loghain believed the way he did, though. The teyrn made his bones as a resistance fighter against the Orlesians and their 'puppet king', employing insurgent and partisan warfare to whittle down his enemies' forces until he brought everything together and smashed the Orlesians' reinforcements on the Dane. He could fight like that because Orlais and the puppet king couldn't just smash and burn everything; they were fighting to control and rule the population of Ferelden, not destroy it. Loghain could sustain his forces via guerrilla actions against the Orlesians.
 
Against the darkspawn, however, there would be no chance of doing that. The darkspawn just kill everything in their path; they don't try to win hearts and minds, they don't try to extract taxes and supplies, they simply destroy. If Loghain proposed to fight the darkspawn like he fought the Orlesians - by drawing things out, hitting the horde with a million pinprick raids, and eventually crushing them with some sort of decisive battle on his own terms - then he would lose. He would run out of food, because the darkspawn would kill the farmers and blight the land. He would run out of supplies, because the darkspawn would kill the smiths and tailors and their equipment. Loghain may have developed a reputation for genius at one form of warfare, but this may have meant that he was psychologically blind about other forms of warfare, and that in turn may have caused him to make poor military decisions when he was pulled out of his comfort zone.
 
That's just theory. In practice, there were several options available to Loghain that may have allowed him to receive reinforcements and make good on the losses of Ostagar in the short term. That, at least, would go some way toward rectifying the numerical balance sheet.
 
He could call on foreign allies, such as Orlais, to lend direct military support. This, unfortunately, had approximately zero chance of happening, because Loghain believed that the Orlesians were involved in a conspiracy to reconquer Ferelden, and that they would use the cover of the Blight to sneak their forces into the country for a coup or something similar like that. So they're out. Another option would be to call on his directly loyal unengaged forces. We know that Rendon Howe's troops from Amaranthine, for instance, were not engaged. This would probably help, although there is considerable anecdotal evidence from the game (e.g. the comments of Denerim law enforcement) that Howe's troops were of low military value. Thirdly, he could try for support from the banns who weren't already pledged to him but who also sat out the Battle of Ostagar, such as the forces loyal to Arl Eamon. He did actually try to do this, but failed to convince his opponents in the Landsmeet that he hadn't simply betrayed the king out of opportunism.
 
Would these additions to his army make up for the losses at Ostagar? In one sense: no, of course not, because all but two of Ferelden's Gray Wardens died at Ostagar, and Loghain was actively trying to kill the two remaining hopes for defeating the Blight that Ferelden had. But if we ignore that rather important point, and focus on pure military numbers and quality...well, we don't know, because we don't know anything about the numbers involved in the battles or the troop quality involved. But it seems unlikely to me that this hodgepodge of unengaged forces - even if they all pledged unconditional loyalty, which itself would be vanishingly unlikely - would make up both for the king's personal troops and for the serious operational problem of allowing the darkspawn to attack the rest of Ferelden.
 
Which ultimately means that if Loghain had logical reasons to believe that the army was doomed if it stayed and fought at Ostagar, those logical reasons would also apply to retreating from Ostagar. By retreating, Loghain would not be making the situation better. He would, in effect, be saving the army only to allow it to die at a later date.
 
Untangling Alternative Motivations
 
Of course, there are plenty of reasons to believe that military considerations weren't the only thing floating around in Loghain's mind at Ostagar.
 
Firstly, there's the issue of personal pique. Loghain is reported to have argued with Cailan a lot, and there is documentary evidence from Return to Ostagar suggesting that one major reason this occurred is because of Loghain's suspicion that Cailan would divorce Anora and remarry into the Orlesian royal family. If one is being charitable to Loghain, one would note that this would be a slap in the face and a mark of severe disrespect; if one is being less charitable, one could point out that Loghain stood to lose influence and power under such a new arrangement and that he may have been motivated by his bizarre Orlesian conspiracy theories. Either way, Loghain was not exactly the king's best friend by the time of the Battle of Ostagar.
 
We can add to that the fact that he stood to gain immensely, at least in the short term, if the king were to die in this way. Teagan's comment about Loghain's retreat being rather 'fortuitous' was exactly right. Loghain would be left with the largest army remaining in the kingdom, enough to intimidate or defeat any internal opponents. His daughter would become the sole monarch, allowing him to plausibly make himself regent and become ruler in truth if not in name. He would have allowed one of his key internal "enemies", the Gray Wardens, (at least, enemies in his own mind) to be comprehensively destroyed, which would further strengthen his position.
 
Then, there's the issue of how exactly Loghain 'knew' that the king's army at Ostagar was doomed. Remember, he could not see the battlefield. All he had eyes on was the Tower of Ishal. All he knew was that the king's army had just signaled him to make the charge. His capacity for logically evaluating the relative military position was exactly nil. Why, exactly, did he think that the army was doomed? What happened between the war council, when he asserted "the plan will work", and the Wardens' signal? What could have made him think that the whole army was in danger of being destroyed? One explanation might be that he just had a bad feeling about it that had only developed after he left the council. That's plausible, but it doesn't speak well of his generalship that he would get his king and the king's men killed purely on instinct. (As we saw with Lee earlier, generals, even good generals, often fall victim to this sort of thing. But it doesn't matter who it happens to, it's still an error. Military decisions must be weighed rationally.) There is, of course, another explanation, namely: he was planning to leave anyway, and deliberately lied to the king about his faith in the battle plan in order to get the king and his troops killed.
 
We have motive and opportunity, which is generally good enough for a court of law. Yet there are also strong reasons for believing that Loghain wasn't just betraying the king, too. I may have spent a great deal of time suggesting that his military reputation was not all that it was cracked up to be, but he still had a good military reputation. It's implausible that Loghain did not understand the extent of the threat that the Blight posed to Ferelden (although he almost certainly underestimated it and overestimated it as was mentally convenient), and he should have known the severe damage that he was doing to his country by leaving the king and his men to die.
 
Contrary to what you may have learned in class, the Roman Empire was not destroyed by 'the barbarians'. Rome was vast, populous, wealthy, and unimaginably powerful; the 'barbarians' were few, militarily weak, and economically impoverished. There was no 'barbarian' conquest. More importantly, no sane person even wanted to destroy Rome. There were no anarchists in late antiquity. What people were trying to do was keep the Empire alive and strong - they just wanted more of the benefits of having an Empire be directed to themselves. Rome was rich and prosperous and the rewards of being high up on the ladder were fantastic.
 
So the Gallic aristocracy repeatedly rebelled and raised up rival emperors after Emperor Gratianus moved the capital back to Italy and took away the patronage of the imperial court that used to go to Gallic interests. Various other military commanders tried to bargain their way into more power, and used 'barbarian' symbols and rhetoric to enhance their bargaining position and propaganda. The Empire fell apart in a paroxysm of civil wars fought between a variety of different men who all wanted to control it, many of whom were the ones creating themselves new 'barbarian' identities as fall-backs if they failed in their grasp for supreme authority. One field army in Gaul started to call itself 'Frankish'; another, which moved from the Danube border to Aquitaine, took on the moniker of 'Gothic'. Those armies, which had started out being filled with Roman citizen-soldiers, ended the fifth century as new countries of their own.
 
The main point here is that Rome died essentially because of historical irony. A bunch of people who were trying to not destroy Rome ended up doing exactly that. You can see a similar pattern in Loghain's behavior. Given what he did after the Battle of Ostagar, it seems plausible that part of the reason for his actions is that he was launching a Griff nach der Königsmacht: to forestall the likely consequences of Cailan's further rule, to annihilate the conspiracies he saw opposing Ferelden, and because, y'know, power. But like the Roman Emperors and would-be Emperors of the fifth century, he wasn't only concerned with power; he probably honestly believed in those conspiracy theories. You don't need to incorporate malice to explain Loghain's military failure at Ostagar, although malice was probably there. It was at least as much of an honest mistake as it was a betrayal.
 
As with many figures in BioWare games, Loghain's status as an antagonist does not make him unalloyed evil, and it's nice how he's portrayed with qualities that many would consider to be laudable: patriotism, for instance. Loghain might have nearly destroyed Ferelden, but he wasn't trying to destroy it: he was trying to save it from what he considered to be threats, in the way that he settled on as the 'best' way of managing the situation. He was wrong about the threats and he was wrong about the way to handle them. In the name of saving his country, he did many morally abhorrent things. That made him an antagonist, and depending on who you ask it made him a villain, as well. But in both of those things he was an eminently believable one. He wasn't some elemental force of evil like the darkspawn or the archdemon. He was all too human...up to the Landsmeet, at which point he became a Heroic Ally or just dead.
 
The Battle of Denerim
 
But wait, you might point out. Loghain was right after all, wasn't he? When the Fereldan army faced down against the darkspawn horde a second time, at Denerim, the Blight was ended and the darkspawn were crushed. Doesn't that validate Loghain's decision to preserve the army? If he hadn't saved it from Ostagar, you might say, the Wardens would never have had the army that they used to ultimately win.
 
First of all, this is flawed logic. When the Wardens' army met the archdemon at Denerim, it was supported by dwarves, elves/werewolves, and magi/templars that would not have been available to Loghain. He didn't have the treaties, nor did he have the capacity to embark on the adventures that the Wardens did in securing the allegiance of the armies named in the treaties.
 
Secondly, again, we don't know that the army would've lost the Battle of Ostagar if Loghain hadn't retreated, and there are good reasons for believing that it might have won. We don't know that it would've won, either, but on the basis of probability it had as good or better a chance at Ostagar as it would have had anywhere else.
 
More importantly, however, this army was created in spite of Loghain, not because of him. Loghain's effort to eradicate the Gray Wardens would have, if successful, destroyed any chance of ending the Blight before it wiped out Ferelden. Loghain interfered with the Wardens' plans when he could; having made them into a threat to his newfound power, the regent tried to undermine that threat by attacking them and their allies.
 
Had Loghain's plans been successful, he would have wiped out the Wardens, defeated and subjugated Redcliffe and his other internal opponents, and then the entire country would have fallen out from under him as the darkspawn continued their inexorable advance. You simply can't give him credit for something that he didn't want to do, something that he was in fact actively trying to avoid.
 
The chain of events that eventually led to the Battle of Denerim was effectively unpredictable. Neither Loghain nor Cailan nor even Duncan could have realized just how powerful and deadly the eventual Hero of Ferelden would become. They could not have banked their war effort against the darkspawn on the survival of a cache of Gray Warden treaties that they did not know existed (well, Duncan knew, but he only wanted them as insurance, and certainly did not expect them to provide the basis for an army that would save the country), much less banked it on a once-in-an-Age warrior coming out of nowhere to kill a god.
 
There's some more historical irony at work. Duncan was not planning for the Battle of Denerim any more than Loghain was. Recruiting the eventual Hero of Ferelden, seeking out the Gray Warden treaties, making sure that Alistair and the Hero didn't try any 'heroics'...these actions all eventually set the preconditions for the victory over the Blight. One can't say that they were all accidents; each move was done because Duncan thought it might help in some way. It's another common tactic (or storytelling trope); you can find it everywhere from Otto von Bismarck to Matthew Stover's Caine. Inch toward daylight, trying to shave the percentages a little here, and a little there. Eventually you put it all together - wham! - and you look like a genius even though there was no big overarching plan to start with.
 
Conclusion
 
The Ostagar campaign amply demonstrates something that I believe to be a fairly deep truth about warfare in the preindustrial era. It's really, really hard to have all the answers. Armies of the nineteenth century have been described as blindfolded boxers staggering around looking for an enemy to slug, and that was in an era of telegraphs and of fairly well-developed reconnaissance. Loghain, Cailan, and the rest of the leadership at Ostagar were operating under severe information constraints, in addition to their own personal neuroses and psychological blind spots. Even formulating an informed opinion from what they knew was difficult enough; applying it to the field of battle was another thing entirely.
 
People often get the impression from the History Channel, from map studies, pop-history books, and strategy games that warfare is relatively simple. The biggest concession to a fog of war might be to darken a portion of the map so that it can't be easily seen. But then, the observer has vastly more information than almost any commander in history. She knows where all the 'friendly' troops are. She can see what they look like from a bird's eye view instead of the actual view, "whatever high ground you've got in the area". She probably has an accurate map that until the nineteenth century at the earliest would not have existed. She can probably discern battlefield events and give orders with no time lag, if she's playing some sort of game.

 

All this creates an unfair imbalance between modern observer and the reality of any military situation. And that, I believe, creates a similar imbalance between the modern observer and the historical commander. They are expected to know much more than they can possibly have known, and to have thought in ways that they cannot possibly have thought. I think that, on the whole, this has redounded to Loghain's favor; people think that he was much more knowledgeable, smarter, and logical than he actually was. Although I doubt it, he may very well have been the military commander of the Age - but in the land of the blind, the man with one eye is the king.
 
From the information available in the game, I think I have demonstrated that many of the assumptions underlying the military decisions taken in the game were not true. Other assumptions were true, but not because of the reasons that many figures in the games thought. I hope that in writing this, I have better clarified the background behind one of the most crucial events in the entire Dragon Age franchise and help people think through the complicated decision matrix related to it. If in so doing I have humanized and contextualized one of the most controversial characters in any BioWare game, then I would also consider that to be a plus.

Naturally, there are plenty of people who might disagree with my reasoning and/or with my conclusions, and I would be more than happy to address such disagreements in this thread whenever I remember to check it. :P

 

I would also welcome BioWare writers come to tell me that I am wrong, and why I am wrong. I'd be really interested in the whys.
 
Tl;dr
 
I don't really have a way to sum all this up quickly, so how about an unrelated jpop song?


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#2
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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One major objection I have to your alternative motivation section: from the tone Loghain takes when he discovers his daughter is about to be divorced, he didn't seem to have suspected Cailan had that in mind previously.

 

Then there's the long column of darkspawn you can see from the bridge at the Tower Of Ishal. I think the plan was to flank them, which would only be minimally effective against that many: you flank some, more flank you. Don't forget that the Battle At Denerim is won because the darkspawn lose their will to fight when the Archdemon dies.

 

Which brings me to my final point: you're correct in that the Grey Wardens are necessary to end the Blight, but the way to capitalize on that looks nothing like Cailan's initially proposed strategy. There need to be Wardens posted just about everywhere, in case of disaster. Putting all or even most of them on the frontlines is a potential instant-failure. (Which does mean Cailan technically saved the country with his apparently impulse-decision to station his half-brother someplace that was unlikely to be dangerous, but from the note we find with his sword I don't think that was why Cailan did that.) 


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#3
cJohnOne

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It's undetermined how long the Ferelden forces could have lasted in a purely defensive mode to wait for reinforcement from particularly Orlais. 

 

They didn't know the outcome before that battle.  Loghains men that were held back were obviously elite forces and should have crushed the rable of the darkspawn forces if they choose to use them.  What would have happened is determined by the writer of the story rather than a military problem. 

 

Even If Loghain just attacked to just save the King that would be better than what occurred with the King and Duncan dying in my opinion. 



#4
Aimi

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One major objection I have to your alternative motivation section: from the tone Loghain takes when he discovers his daughter is about to be divorced, he didn't seem to have suspected Cailan had that in mind previously.

 

Then there's the long column of darkspawn you can see from the bridge at the Tower Of Ishal. I think the plan was to flank them, which would only be minimally effective against that many: you flank some, more flank you. Don't forget that the Battle At Denerim is won because the darkspawn lose their will to fight when the Archdemon dies.

 

Which brings me to my final point: you're correct in that the Grey Wardens are necessary to end the Blight, but the way to capitalize on that looks nothing like Cailan's initially proposed strategy. There need to be Wardens posted just about everywhere, in case of disaster. Putting all or even most of them on the frontlines is a potential instant-failure. (Which does mean Cailan technically saved the country with his apparently impulse-decision to station his half-brother someplace that was unlikely to be dangerous, but from the note we find with his sword I don't think that was why Cailan did that.) 

 

Thanks for that. It's been awhile since I played Return to Ostagar with Loghain in the party (three years and one computer ago), and I guess I misremembered it as him only having been suspicious, but not with foreknowledge, as opposed to just having absolutely no clue. Still, it doesn't change the basic calculus of the relationship between Loghain and Cailan that much: they still had a fair amount of friction, especially over Anora.

 

---

 

I think that flanking the darkspawn does have value. It's logistically and psychologically difficult to shift lines in the middle of a battle. Half the reason flanking attacks in general work so well is because the other dudes might see them coming but they just can't turn around and fight in time to be even remotely effective. Plus, these are darkspawn we're talking about here. They're explicitly described as having no more than 'animal' cunning, and nothing we've seen in the game suggests that the rank and file genlocks and hurlocks would be able to re-form in mid-battle and face off against a column of flank attackers.

 

And that's assuming the darkspawn are organized enough to do anything at all. It's dangerous to draw too many conclusions from a BioWare battle cinematic, but it appears from the scene with Duncan and Cailan's deaths that the darkspawn horde was severely disorganized by the melee under the walls of Ostagar. Turning a bunch of guys that are already in an organized line is hard enough. Turning a bunch of guys that are scattered and clumped together almost at random? Virtually impossible. And if the darkspawn infantry isn't formed and ready for the charge when it comes, the flank attack is worth it. That initial shock, disorganization, and surprise can be critical.

 

We also have to think about whether those soldiers in the flanking force could be profitably used elsewhere. I'm not so sure that's the case. Sticking them behind the king's forces doesn't offer the prospect of decisive results and might simply lead to a bloody meat grinder under the walls of the fortress. Where else would they go? On the walls themselves? Most of those men were almost certainly infantry, so posting them on the walls wouldn't be useful. Concentrating one's forces is well and good, but spatial factors are also relevant.

 

---

 

Spreading the Wardens out is well and good, and I agree that it would probably have been the best move, but there is value to keeping them together, too. They're trained fighters with experience working together, which gives them a synergy in a group that they wouldn't necessarily have by leavening the entire Fereldan army. Too, there's the issue of Loghain. Even if he wasn't being actively malicious, he was known to dislike the Wardens and may have tried to block any effort to place them in his ranks. Cailan and Duncan may have felt that it was simply safer to minimize potential disagreements in the middle of a battle, and kept the Wardens with the king's men as a matter of expediency. And that's exactly where we started.

 

It's certainly a suboptimal outcome in some respects, but some things can't necessarily be changed. Ultimately, I think that the Wardens staying together was a symptom of the underlying cause of the defeat at Ostagar, not the cause itself.


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#5
Thermopylae

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Well written, I liked the argument about the difference between a civil war and a campaign fighting the blight, the blight being the complete destruction of civilian infrastructure. The inclusion of the J pop song is a little contentious btw. Interesting in the battle of Poitiers (Hundred Years War 1356) the Duke of Orlean's men refused to attack after the Dauphins men were repulsed by English men at arms and longbow men and eventually the Duke of Orleans withdrew when the Dauphin withdrew.  A kind of historical precedent about forces withdrawing and not conforming to battle plans. Not sure of the reasoning. Bernard Cornwall in "1356" which has a lot of fantasy elements represents this as due to "overconfidence" on the part of the french but I am unsure.


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#6
Blazomancer

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I think the Ostagar battle was there to be lost no matter what. Regardless of the motivations of Loghain and Cailan, nothing short of a divine intervention would have won it. At least that's what I thought, seeing the large number of darkspawn. It's true that planning and strategies can even out the advantage that one side have over the other in terms of size, but there have to be some limit to that. Also the blight time darkspawn are supposedly more organized. I can hear the archD speaking telepethatically to one of the hurlock vanguards - "a human lord hunts us, Vanguard. Show him what we know of death" as soon as Loghain's flanking charge came.

I don't really blame Loghain or Cailan for how the battle turned out. The whole army along with the wardens might as well have retreated to the interior of Ferelden, but Ferelden was pretty much doomed without backup from other nations and/or the treaties.

I found it humorous that Loghain accused Cailan of being foolish, but by the end of the landsmeet, the joke ends up being on Loghain.

#7
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One major objection I have to your alternative motivation section: from the tone Loghain takes when he discovers his daughter is about to be divorced, he didn't seem to have suspected Cailan had that in mind previously.

 

Then there's the long column of darkspawn you can see from the bridge at the Tower Of Ishal. I think the plan was to flank them, which would only be minimally effective against that many: you flank some, more flank you. Don't forget that the Battle At Denerim is won because the darkspawn lose their will to fight when the Archdemon dies.

 

Which brings me to my final point: you're correct in that the Grey Wardens are necessary to end the Blight, but the way to capitalize on that looks nothing like Cailan's initially proposed strategy. There need to be Wardens posted just about everywhere, in case of disaster. Putting all or even most of them on the frontlines is a potential instant-failure. (Which does mean Cailan technically saved the country with his apparently impulse-decision to station his half-brother someplace that was unlikely to be dangerous, but from the note we find with his sword I don't think that was why Cailan did that.) 

 

 

Why do you think Cailan did that? I'm curious about this...

 

Your point about the placement of Wardens is a very good one. They should have been more dispersed. But again, this kind of goes back to that damn secret which is a bit of the root of the whole problem. While they keep justifying that telling people would keep them from wanting to become wardens, my thought is that if everyone knew that this is what it takes to become a warden, this is what you sacrifice and why you are the only one who can tell if it's a blight and kill the archdeamon, I think they would garner a lot more respect as a result and while it would deter some, it would attract an entirely different lot - people who are willing to accept the consequences but also wear the honor. If you remove the secrecy then the reason people hate the wardens goes away and things change quite a bit. Recruits might be low initially but in a world where blights are basically armageddons that you have to stop, I really think that people's perspective would change and the Wardens would be considered Elite... People who were truly willing to die to save their country. People who accepted it knowing the outcome was not a chance but a gaurantee. That takes some balls and deserves a hell of a lot of respect. And there are those who would sign up simply for that reason rather than run from it.

 

Reminds me a bit of The Legion of the Dead.


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#8
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Why do you think Cailan did that? I'm curious about this...

 

Your point about the placement of Wardens is a very good one. They should have been more dispersed. But again, this kind of goes back to that damn secret which is a bit of the root of the whole problem. While they keep justifying that telling people would keep them from wanting to become wardens, my thought is that if everyone knew that this is what it takes to become a warden, this is what you sacrifice and why you are the only one who can tell if it's a blight and kill the archdeamon, I think they would garner a lot more respect as a result and while it would deter some, it would attract an entirely different lot - people who are willing to accept the consequences but also wear the honor. If you remove the secrecy then the reason people hate the wardens goes away and things change quite a bit. Recruits might be low initially but in a world where blights are basically armageddons that you have to stop, I really think that people's perspective would change and the Wardens would be considered Elite... People who were truly willing to die to save their country. People who accepted it knowing the outcome was not a chance but a gaurantee. That takes some balls and deserves a hell of a lot of respect. And there are those who would sign up simply for that reason rather than run from it.

 

Reminds me a bit of The Legion of the Dead.

I was always under the impression he did it to make reasonably sure his brother didn't die. (It may also have been a fail-safe of Cailan's in case Cailan died, though I'm not sure such a thing would have occurred to Cailan. Apparently a bastard inheriting the throne is without precedent in Ferelden.)

 

As for the rest of it, I'll agree that the Wardens are impressive, but there's a massive blood magic taboo in Thedas. Recruitment in Tevinter would probably be more or less unchanged, and recruitment in Orzammar would probably increase due to the Wardens needing to go there to find people who wouldn't care. Everywhere else, the Wardens would feel that stigma. (Someone's probably going to reply to this by starting a debate as to whether or not the Joining is blood magic. I personally think it is, but that doesn't even really matter. The Chantry has banned academic dissections due to fear of Blood Magic. I think that should say something about how utterly paranoid they are about anything even resembling it.)


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#9
mousestalker

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I think this says all that I feel about Loghain and his withdrawal at Ostagar. :P



#10
Mike3207

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Well, it's all speculation without knowing how many Fereldan troops and darkspawn were at Ostagar, but you can have some reasonable estimates:

 

First, Duncan says, "there are thousands of darkspawn, maybe ten thousand or more.By now they look to outnumber us". So it's reasonable that the Fereldan forces are small enough that morale depends on receiving reinforcements from Eamon and the Gray Wardens of Orlais. I'd put my estimate of Fereldan forces at between 8000-12000.

 

The problem you run into is no one really knows how many darkspawn were there. The picture does show that there were darkspawn all the way from the forest to the fortress, but you have no hard numbers on the number of darkspawn. The initial estimate of 10,000 was very low, I wouldn't be surprised if there were anywhere 50,000 to 150,000.It's clear the Fereldan forces severely underestimated the number of darkspawn.

 

The strategy was also guestionable.You come out of the Ostagar fortress, and the darkspawn in RTO show you just how you should have defended that fortress. No traps, no defensive fortifications, no use of magic, and only one volley by archers.if I didn't know better, I'd think Cailan wanted to lose that battle. The signal was also late, so it's questionable how useful a charge would have been. More than likely it would have just destroyed the remaining Fereldan army.



#11
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I was always under the impression he did it to make reasonably sure his brother didn't die. (It may also have been a fail-safe of Cailan's in case Cailan died, though I'm not sure such a thing would have occurred to Cailan. Apparently a bastard inheriting the throne is without precedent in Ferelden.)

 

As for the rest of it, I'll agree that the Wardens are impressive, but there's a massive blood magic taboo in Thedas. Recruitment in Tevinter would probably be more or less unchanged, and recruitment in Orzammar would probably increase due to the Wardens needing to go there to find people who wouldn't care. Everywhere else, the Wardens would feel that stigma. (Someone's probably going to reply to this by starting a debate as to whether or not the Joining is blood magic. I personally think it is, but that doesn't even really matter. The Chantry has banned academic dissections due to fear of Blood Magic. I think that should say something about how utterly paranoid they are about anything even resembling it.)

 

I don't see how it is blood magic. The Chantry could not really say it is since there is nothing magical about you. Drinking the blood of links you to the darksparwn. Templars use magic against mages the way Wardens have used the blood to sense darkspawn. And they only do it once, in the joining itself. After that, it is never done again. They are linked and can sense them. It's a very different thing. The only reason it would not turn into this debate though is because you kind of just opened the door, didn't you? I never saw it as blood magic but you did just bring it into the debate. I don't see how the chantry could see it that way but I also think **** the chantry. They're not going to save us from the darkspawn. They never have. In fact I just saved their sorry asses from a circle full of blood mages. Sure, they drink the blood, but it's not like it ever goes beyond that. In the most simplified sense if could be seen as blood magic by the most witless idiot or devout fool or zealot. But drinking blood of darkspawn and an archdeamon so you can sense them and be able to kill them grants you none of the powers that actual blood magic does. It doesn't drain life. It doesn't give you some special magical power. It is simply creating a connection. Nothing more. You can't be possessed because of it though the connection does work both ways. Darkspawn and Archdeamon cannot control you. Deamons cannot try to take you over even if you are a mage. It just doesn't happen. So if the Chantry went down with this line of thinking then they would be wrong. And you know, who really cares about the chantry. We can constript and tell chantry folks to ****** off. I've done it in Awakening. I'd do it again, happily. The problem is that nobody knows how blights are truly stopped and what wardens sacrafice to be able to stop them and sense the deamon and darkspawn. If they understood all of this would have been avoided because duncan's words would have meant more than they did to everyone involved and the whole situation would have changed. So really, it's another little thing written into the story but the logic behind it isn't really all that sound. It's kind of a weak justification for all the events that follow, and many things hing on this taint. It's a device or tool that becomes biggest problem creator within the story. The secrecy behind it so extreme that only at the very end after how many months do you learn that you will die if you kill the archdeamom because of the taint. How is that even helpful? It's a plot contrivance that stands out as a plot contrivance at key points in the story, magically working in the writers favor to add in things that feel forced, manipulative and even a big absurd:

 

1) ostagar - nobody really takes duncan seriously hence everything goes awry

2) rejection by Alistair if he is hardened as a king who kills Loghain, he dumps you because of the taint so he can try to have an heir

3) the morrigan sex magic rituals, very skeevy

4) your death if you don't go for the sex magic ritual

5) Loghain not seeing the value of the grey wardens because he doesn't know this

 

If it weren't so blatantly a contrivance to manipulate the story many times over and if it weren't as weak and stupid a contrivance as it is, it might work well enough. But it never really comes off as smart. The justifications made by everyone always feel weak. Nobody would do it if they knew? Well, people know the risks with plenty of things and they do them anyway. This is not vastly different but they can still conscript and people would still choose to join. If it were not so vital that people should know so they understand why the wardens are so critical then it might work a bit better. The not know causes far more problems than the secrecy solves. Witness the joining in Ostagar where Jory gets run through with a sword.

 

Worse, they don't even stick to this secrecy thing in awakening because your dialouge is now pretty straight forward and suddenly you tell people they could die from it. Oghren knows about drinking from the cup and wants to spit and gargle to get it done. It seems the great secret is no longer a secret and become something divulged randomly as it suit the writers once we no longer need it's secrecy to serve the writing. That is probably my biggest concern. There is no consistency across the DLC from the core of the game. Is it because they've decided to be more open about it or is it because it really didn't matter anymore because no key events happen around the joining and everyone seems to know what it is or entails and the risks involved or there is a dialogue option to tell people this, like Velenna and Oghren. I didn't get that warning before. Why would my warden be sharing it now?


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#12
ShadowLordXII

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One problem that I have with Ostagar that everyone seems to overlook (at least in my experience) is an error on the part of Duncan.

 

Why did he bring every last grey warden to Ostagar?

 

Granted, the wardens in Ferelden sensed the presence of the Archdemon and believed Ostagar to be a great opportunity to destroy the Blight in it's infancy. But remember that there were only two dozen wardens in all of Ferelden at that time. Wouldn't it make logical and practical sense for Duncan to leave a few wardens back at Denerem or to Jader in the event that Ostagar was a defeat?

 

Yes, Alistair and the Warden to survive because of a whim of fate. Something that Duncan had no way of accounting for. Which means every last warden in Ferelden would've died at Ostagar and since Loghain ends up closing the border to Orlais, the aforementioned whim of fate is the only thing that would keep Ferelden from being utterly screwed. Duncan's lack of a back-up contingency seems like a heavy leadership flaw especially given the dire circumstances Ferelden and eventually Thedas would face.

 

Or perhaps he also underestimated the Blight's strength just like Flemeth said, "Tell your Grey Wardens that this Blight's threat is far greater than you realize."



#13
Guest_starlitegirlx_*

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One problem that I have with Ostagar that everyone seems to overlook (at least in my experience) is an error on the part of Duncan.

 

Why did he bring every last grey warden to Ostagar?

 

Granted, the wardens in Ferelden sensed the presence of the Archdemon and believed Ostagar to be a great opportunity to destroy the Blight in it's infancy. But remember that there were only two dozen wardens in all of Ferelden at that time. Wouldn't it make logical and practical sense for Duncan to leave a few wardens back at Denerem or to Jader in the event that Ostagar was a defeat?

 

Yes, Alistair and the Warden to survive because of a whim of fate. Something that Duncan had no way of accounting for. Which means every last warden in Ferelden would've died at Ostagar and since Loghain ends up closing the border to Orlais, the aforementioned whim of fate is the only thing that would keep Ferelden from being utterly screwed. Duncan's lack of a back-up contingency seems like a heavy leadership flaw especially given the dire circumstances Ferelden and eventually Thedas would face.

 

Or perhaps he also underestimated the Blight's strength just like Flemeth said, "Tell your Grey Wardens that this Blight's threat is far greater than you realize."

 

This is another one of those game mechanics that I speak of so often where writing causes something so blatantly foolish to take place in order to justify the outcome which is that now you are the one who has to stop the blight with you band of misfits. It's justified in game by them needing more troops but to me that just shows how critical it is that they don't throw every last warden into the mess given how dire the outcome could be since without wardens all is truly lost. but again, it's the writing weak point where something utterly foolish happens to create the circumstance that allows the game to progress how the writers want it to... where it all relies on you and most especially so that you are the leader making the choices and you have a good chance of taking the deal with Morrigan. So much hinges on this idiocy that it really does feel weak and contrived.

 

Yes, more should have been held back and actually if it hadn't been for Cailan's whim the game would not exist. What would say six wardens been against what they were facing. There is no logic there. Six wardens would not turn the tide in this vast battle. But six wardens held off the main battle gives you a chance to still have wardens that live if it doesn't go according to plan which Duncan seems to think is a possibility. And if Cailan said anything about it, then you just say you need wardens to survive in case they do not win. You could even have written them out easily having them go to orlais to send word (and even then some could be captured and others do make it to orlais but orlais takes the same stance they do without this happening) but at least it doesn't look like the stupidest plan on earth.


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#14
thats1evildude

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One problem that I have with Ostagar that everyone seems to overlook (at least in my experience) is an error on the part of Duncan.

 

Why did he bring every last grey warden to Ostagar?

 

Duncan had no reason to believe that, if Ostagar turned out to be a disaster, Grey Warden reinforcements could not arrive from other nations. And if the Archdemon did appear on the battlefield, you would want as many Grey Wardens on hand as possible to defeat it.

 

And even if he DID hold back Grey Wardens from the battle, Loghain would have had them arrested and executed anyways. Duncan can't be held responsible for failing to account for Loghain betraying them.



#15
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Duncan had no reason to believe that, if Ostagar turned out to be a disaster, Grey Warden reinforcements could not arrive from other nations. And if the Archdemon did appear on the battlefield, you would want as many Grey Wardens on hand as possible to defeat it.

 

And even if he DID hold back Grey Wardens from the battle, Loghain would have had them arrested and executed anyways. Duncan can't be held responsible for failing to account for Loghain betraying them.

 

But even if you need every man to fight the darkspawn, holding some back since there were so few in ferelden at that moment would make sense. Even if you trust everything will go smoothly, it's not as if they had a huge contingent where odds would swing in their favor. He felt they didn't have enough forces. It was written in a way that he lacked foresight. When you need to have wardens to fight the blight and there aren't a huge compliment there, do you squander them all. He put all his resources into this plan and knowing that others are supposed to be coming doesn't really matter because they are not there. Until they are there they do not count. Anything could happen to keep them from coming. While it seemed unlikely at the time, there could have been delays. Something could have gone wrong. If they all died then there are no greywardens in ferelden and the ones who arrive will have be in a territory that is not their own and have to come up with a plan and possibly face opposition because they are from another land which clearly is an issue in ferelden due to previous issues with Orlais. His not taking this into consideration is poor writing. Can't blame him because he's only as smart as he is written. But he isn't written to be wise. People say Loghain was smart to hold back his troops (to a small degree I do agree that sending them into that mess might not have helped - no way to no for sure though withdrawal is not something I'm fond of either) but in Duncan's case with the grey wardens, they have few to begin with. Hold a few back in this case would have been a logical and sound strategy. He basically put all his eggs in one basket trusting everything would go according to plan while also knowing there were too few wardens to begin with. Your point makes sense but it there were not a lot of wardens to begin with and no contingency or backup plan. It was a fool hardy 'all in' that caused the problem. The story could have easily continued without having sacraficed all the men on the battlefield if he just held a few back and it was decided that they should proceed to notify orlais of what has transpired and send more wardens. Duncan being in the battle beside the king made it even more problematic. Who would send word if they all die. Riordan kind of addresses this when you first meet him. They hadn't heard anything so he came having been from ferelden. It shows how foolish it was.

 

If he held back scouts which would be the wise choice for this action, then they could have eluded Loghain after seeing what transpired. Scouts would be the logical choice to send word due to their stealth abilities.



#16
Cobra's_back

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Thank you for the excellent post. I just loved reading it.

 

Your quote:" Loghain himself is unreliable on this point; without a view of the battlefield at the very least, there's no possible way for him to have known if the king's troops were doomed, and he didn't have such a view. All he could see was the Tower of Ishal. He also has potential reasons for wanting to lie about his own motivations, especially if you believe that Loghain betrayed the king instead of merely cutting his losses and retreating." 

 

So true. I really didn't like "believe me just because I said so". I had no respect for his character at all. He sent the wardens and their troops back because he was suspicious. Could they have made a difference? He turns them away and then he quit. 

 

Here is the best part the same guy that quit the field and told the wardens and their troops to go back demanded everyone follow him into battle. Such leadership NOT!

 

I wouldn't buy what he was selling even if the writers try to tell me different. You want me to believe give me more detail in game. 



#17
Aimi

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Well, it's all speculation without knowing how many Fereldan troops and darkspawn were at Ostagar, but you can have some reasonable estimates:
 
First, Duncan says, "there are thousands of darkspawn, maybe ten thousand or more.By now they look to outnumber us". So it's reasonable that the Fereldan forces are small enough that morale depends on receiving reinforcements from Eamon and the Gray Wardens of Orlais. I'd put my estimate of Fereldan forces at between 8000-12000.
 
The problem you run into is no one really knows how many darkspawn were there. The picture does show that there were darkspawn all the way from the forest to the fortress, but you have no hard numbers on the number of darkspawn. The initial estimate of 10,000 was very low, I wouldn't be surprised if there were anywhere 50,000 to 150,000.It's clear the Fereldan forces severely underestimated the number of darkspawn.
 
The strategy was also guestionable.You come out of the Ostagar fortress, and the darkspawn in RTO show you just how you should have defended that fortress. No traps, no defensive fortifications, no use of magic, and only one volley by archers.if I didn't know better, I'd think Cailan wanted to lose that battle. The signal was also late, so it's questionable how useful a charge would have been. More than likely it would have just destroyed the remaining Fereldan army.


All of which are interesting estimates, but they don't really address the main question.

The issue isn't whether the Fereldan army could have won the Battle of Ostagar in a vacuum, but whether it was better to fight at Ostagar or to withdraw. Similarly, the issue with Loghain's decision is more "was it better to throw everything into the Ostagar battle or to retreat and leave the king and his troops to die?"

For those questions, you don't need absolute numbers - and, again, it's almost unreasonable to expect them, considering that even Loghain and the king probably only possessed estimates of their own forces' size. Even if we had numbers, they wouldn't tell us anything about force multipliers or anything like that. And even if we knew about force multipliers, battle is still, fundamentally, a lottery. Fortune and chance have historically played a tremendous role in military history: an unseasonable shift in the wind, a general coming down with pleurisy, an "acoustic shadow" preventing spread-out forces from hearing the sounds of battle only a few miles off. So even your "it's all speculation without knowing how many" comment is kinda misleading. It's all speculation anyway.

Therefore, we shouldn't be trying to build a sort of model to determine whether Ferelden could have won at Ostagar. All that we can do is compare the situation at Ostagar with the other options available to Ferelden's military leaders. Which was the point of my post.

As far as tactics go...well. Historically, BioWare games haven't been stunningly realistic in their depiction of battles during cutscenes. Mass Effect and its sequels featured multiple space-naval engagements that do not remotely resemble the description of space battles as found in the Codex, and the use of biotic powers also differs markedly from lore sources. I think that using the Ostagar cutscene to hash out tactical minutiae would be taking things too far. The cutscenes are intended not merely to depict what was happening in the game, but also to evoke emotions in the players and to, well, look cool. And it looks a lot cooler if they keep the skirmishing to a minimum and have the two armies charge full-tilt toward each other to kick off the battle, even if those things don't make any sense.
 

One problem that I have with Ostagar that everyone seems to overlook (at least in my experience) is an error on the part of Duncan.
 
Why did he bring every last grey warden to Ostagar?
 
Granted, the wardens in Ferelden sensed the presence of the Archdemon and believed Ostagar to be a great opportunity to destroy the Blight in it's infancy. But remember that there were only two dozen wardens in all of Ferelden at that time. Wouldn't it make logical and practical sense for Duncan to leave a few wardens back at Denerem or to Jader in the event that Ostagar was a defeat?
 
Yes, Alistair and the Warden to survive because of a whim of fate. Something that Duncan had no way of accounting for. Which means every last warden in Ferelden would've died at Ostagar and since Loghain ends up closing the border to Orlais, the aforementioned whim of fate is the only thing that would keep Ferelden from being utterly screwed. Duncan's lack of a back-up contingency seems like a heavy leadership flaw especially given the dire circumstances Ferelden and eventually Thedas would face.
 
Or perhaps he also underestimated the Blight's strength just like Flemeth said, "Tell your Grey Wardens that this Blight's threat is far greater than you realize."


Leaving Wardens behind only makes sense if Duncan believes that the Fereldan army is doomed to lose the Battle of Ostagar - in which case, why not leave all the Wardens behind?

If the Fereldans lose at Ostagar, the kingdom is screwed, regardless of whether there are one or two left in 'reserve' somewhere else in the kingdom. The army will have been mauled at the very least, and may have been entirely defeated. In that case, a few remaining Wardens won't have made much of a difference. On the other hand, what if those few Wardens who were left out of the battle would have had a chance to engage and slay the archdemon when they were there? "For want of a nail" and all that.

As I tried to draw out in the first post, I don't think that playing for time works in Ferelden's favor at all. Playing for time leaves the Fereldan populace open to darkspawn attack. It might allow more of an opportunity to gain reinforcements from other kingdoms, such as Orlais, but that option was not open to everybody. (Loghain, for instance, flatly refused to consider it.) And even if those reinforcements were to come - even if those reinforcements helped to defeat the Blight - Ferelden itself would suffer tremendously. The best course of action open to the Fereldans was ideally to apply maximum force against the Blight and end it as quickly as possible, and failing that to use the defensive position at Ostagar to hold the Blight back from Ferelden proper for as long as possible while awaiting reinforcements from other kingdoms.

True, this sort of thing is risky. Staking everything on the first few battles can be very dangerous. But again, it's not about whether the Fereldans would have lost the Battle of Ostagar had Loghain committed his forces to it as allegedly planned. It's about whether they could reasonably have expected to do any better a job with any other plan.
 

Thank you for the excellent post. I just loved reading it.
 
Your quote:" Loghain himself is unreliable on this point; without a view of the battlefield at the very least, there's no possible way for him to have known if the king's troops were doomed, and he didn't have such a view. All he could see was the Tower of Ishal. He also has potential reasons for wanting to lie about his own motivations, especially if you believe that Loghain betrayed the king instead of merely cutting his losses and retreating." 
 
So true. I really didn't like "believe me just because I said so". I had no respect for his character at all. He sent the wardens and their troops back because he was suspicious. Could they have made a difference? He turns them away and then he quit. 
 
Here is the best part the same guy that quit the field and told the wardens and their troops to go back demanded everyone follow him into battle. Such leadership NOT!
 
I wouldn't buy what he was selling even if the writers try to tell me different. You want me to believe give me more detail in game.


I suspect that the writers of the game quite deliberately wanted to create a sense of obfuscation over the Battle of Ostagar. They inserted many different people into the game, each with a different viewpoint on the battle, Ferelden's chances in it, and Loghain's actions. That is, after all, the way history works: you aggregate a lot of different viewpoints on any one topic, try to corroborate them where you can, and analyze them for cognitive bias or imperfect information where you cannot.

#18
Xilizhra

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As far as tactics go...well. Historically, BioWare games haven't been stunningly realistic in their depiction of battles during cutscenes. Mass Effect and its sequels featured multiple space-naval engagements that do not remotely resemble the description of space battles as found in the Codex, and the use of biotic powers also differs markedly from lore sources. I think that using the Ostagar cutscene to hash out tactical minutiae would be taking things too far. The cutscenes are intended not merely to depict what was happening in the game, but also to evoke emotions in the players and to, well, look cool. And it looks a lot cooler if they keep the skirmishing to a minimum and have the two armies charge full-tilt toward each other to kick off the battle, even if those things don't make any sense.

Something to remember: darkspawn tactics aren't human tactics. I don't know if they can actually tire, and even if they did, their fellows behind them would be perfectly willing to trample them to get at the enemy. The darkspawn will charge full-tilt and never step back, which might actually make human defenses against them quite difficult; sure, the initial losses will be huge, but they don't seem to care, and successive waves will continue to smash into the human defenses until they're finally worn away. Aside, of course, from the darkspawn siege engineers who are launching giant flaming boulders at Ostagar and destroyed a fair few defensive emplacements.

I think Loghain was mired in self-delusion after Ostagar, it's true, but considering the sea of darkspawn that we could see marching on Ostagar, I find it hard to blame his retreat. He couldn't see the battle itself, but he could see that the darkspawn were practically endless and continued to advance, and presumably vastly outnumbered his own forces (which we can see in the cutscene where Loghain retreats, so one can't really say that Loghain couldn't see it). I don't know how Loghain expected to fight off the Blight on his own without Ostagar; I think he retreated into a fantasy world of his own design and knew on some level he was badly screwing up. I don't, however, think Ostagar was winnable; Ferelden simply didn't have enough troops or time to fight off an entire Blight during one battle (and the archdemon may have chosen not to appear specifically to ensure that there couldn't possibly be a swift victory).



#19
Tommy6860

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Something to remember: darkspawn tactics aren't human tactics. I don't know if they can actually tire, and even if they did, their fellows behind them would be perfectly willing to trample them to get at the enemy. The darkspawn will charge full-tilt and never step back, which might actually make human defenses against them quite difficult; sure, the initial losses will be huge, but they don't seem to care, and successive waves will continue to smash into the human defenses until they're finally worn away. Aside, of course, from the darkspawn siege engineers who are launching giant flaming boulders at Ostagar and destroyed a fair few defensive emplacements.

I think Loghain was mired in self-delusion after Ostagar, it's true, but considering the sea of darkspawn that we could see marching on Ostagar, I find it hard to blame his retreat. He couldn't see the battle itself, but he could see that the darkspawn were practically endless and continued to advance, and presumably vastly outnumbered his own forces (which we can see in the cutscene where Loghain retreats, so one can't really say that Loghain couldn't see it). I don't know how Loghain expected to fight off the Blight on his own without Ostagar; I think he retreated into a fantasy world of his own design and knew on some level he was badly screwing up. I don't, however, think Ostagar was winnable; Ferelden simply didn't have enough troops or time to fight off an entire Blight during one battle (and the archdemon may have chosen not to appear specifically to ensure that there couldn't possibly be a swift victory).

 You make good points. But I'll add that Loghain's political intrigues pretty much kept that battle as un-winnable because of the size of the horde. Remember how opposed he was to calling on help from Orlais? That stance pretty much tipped the battle more in favor of losing against the darkspawn, even if he hadn't retreated.



#20
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All of which are interesting estimates, but they don't really address the main question.

The issue isn't whether the Fereldan army could have won the Battle of Ostagar in a vacuum, but whether it was better to fight at Ostagar or to withdraw. Similarly, the issue with Loghain's decision is more "was it better to throw everything into the Ostagar battle or to retreat and leave the king and his troops to die?"

For those questions, you don't need absolute numbers - and, again, it's almost unreasonable to expect them, considering that even Loghain and the king probably only possessed estimates of their own forces' size. Even if we had numbers, they wouldn't tell us anything about force multipliers or anything like that. And even if we knew about force multipliers, battle is still, fundamentally, a lottery. Fortune and chance have historically played a tremendous role in military history: an unseasonable shift in the wind, a general coming down with pleurisy, an "acoustic shadow" preventing spread-out forces from hearing the sounds of battle only a few miles off. So even your "it's all speculation without knowing how many" comment is kinda misleading. It's all speculation anyway.

Therefore, we shouldn't be trying to build a sort of model to determine whether Ferelden could have won at Ostagar. All that we can do is compare the situation at Ostagar with the other options available to Ferelden's military leaders. Which was the point of my post.

As far as tactics go...well. Historically, BioWare games haven't been stunningly realistic in their depiction of battles during cutscenes. Mass Effect and its sequels featured multiple space-naval engagements that do not remotely resemble the description of space battles as found in the Codex, and the use of biotic powers also differs markedly from lore sources. I think that using the Ostagar cutscene to hash out tactical minutiae would be taking things too far. The cutscenes are intended not merely to depict what was happening in the game, but also to evoke emotions in the players and to, well, look cool. And it looks a lot cooler if they keep the skirmishing to a minimum and have the two armies charge full-tilt toward each other to kick off the battle, even if those things don't make any sense.
 

Leaving Wardens behind only makes sense if Duncan believes that the Fereldan army is doomed to lose the Battle of Ostagar - in which case, why not leave all the Wardens behind?

If the Fereldans lose at Ostagar, the kingdom is screwed, regardless of whether there are one or two left in 'reserve' somewhere else in the kingdom. The army will have been mauled at the very least, and may have been entirely defeated. In that case, a few remaining Wardens won't have made much of a difference. On the other hand, what if those few Wardens who were left out of the battle would have had a chance to engage and slay the archdemon when they were there? "For want of a nail" and all that.

As I tried to draw out in the first post, I don't think that playing for time works in Ferelden's favor at all. Playing for time leaves the Fereldan populace open to darkspawn attack. It might allow more of an opportunity to gain reinforcements from other kingdoms, such as Orlais, but that option was not open to everybody. (Loghain, for instance, flatly refused to consider it.) And even if those reinforcements were to come - even if those reinforcements helped to defeat the Blight - Ferelden itself would suffer tremendously. The best course of action open to the Fereldans was ideally to apply maximum force against the Blight and end it as quickly as possible, and failing that to use the defensive position at Ostagar to hold the Blight back from Ferelden proper for as long as possible while awaiting reinforcements from other kingdoms.

True, this sort of thing is risky. Staking everything on the first few battles can be very dangerous. But again, it's not about whether the Fereldans would have lost the Battle of Ostagar had Loghain committed his forces to it as allegedly planned. It's about whether they could reasonably have expected to do any better a job with any other plan.
 

I suspect that the writers of the game quite deliberately wanted to create a sense of obfuscation over the Battle of Ostagar. They inserted many different people into the game, each with a different viewpoint on the battle, Ferelden's chances in it, and Loghain's actions. That is, after all, the way history works: you aggregate a lot of different viewpoints on any one topic, try to corroborate them where you can, and analyze them for cognitive bias or imperfect information where you cannot.

 This must is absolutely clear. As it seems they wanted to do with all things related to Loghain given you get a choice at the end. They wanted players to be able to justify whichever they wanted.



#21
Aimi

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Something to remember: darkspawn tactics aren't human tactics. I don't know if they can actually tire, and even if they did, their fellows behind them would be perfectly willing to trample them to get at the enemy. The darkspawn will charge full-tilt and never step back, which might actually make human defenses against them quite difficult; sure, the initial losses will be huge, but they don't seem to care, and successive waves will continue to smash into the human defenses until they're finally worn away. Aside, of course, from the darkspawn siege engineers who are launching giant flaming boulders at Ostagar and destroyed a fair few defensive emplacements.
I think Loghain was mired in self-delusion after Ostagar, it's true, but considering the sea of darkspawn that we could see marching on Ostagar, I find it hard to blame his retreat. He couldn't see the battle itself, but he could see that the darkspawn were practically endless and continued to advance, and presumably vastly outnumbered his own forces (which we can see in the cutscene where Loghain retreats, so one can't really say that Loghain couldn't see it). I don't know how Loghain expected to fight off the Blight on his own without Ostagar; I think he retreated into a fantasy world of his own design and knew on some level he was badly screwing up. I don't, however, think Ostagar was winnable; Ferelden simply didn't have enough troops or time to fight off an entire Blight during one battle (and the archdemon may have chosen not to appear specifically to ensure that there couldn't possibly be a swift victory).


That actually doesn't modify tactics as much as you'd think.

The problem of crossing a fire-swept zone to engage in close combat with an enemy is a relatively new paradigm in warfare: it's only been a serious issue since about the middle of the nineteenth century, with the development of the Minié ball, breech-loading small arms, and rifled artillery with canister shot. Before that, it'd be rare for arrow or musket fire to shatter or break enemy formations. Even at Agincourt, the French knights made multiple charges and directly engaged the English billmen, despite that they were charging across lots of open ground, they got stuck in the mud, and they were tangled up with their own troops (like the hapless Genoese crossbowmen). This was not vastly dissimilar from the Battle of Solferino in 1859, when French formations made bayonet shock charges against units of Austrian riflemen armed with Minié-firing muskets and succeeded, winning the battle at a certain cost in casualties yet inflicting similar numbers on its enemies.

The presence of mages could potentially alter this equation, prompting a shift toward dispersed tactics and all the other jolly innovations we saw between 1860 and 1918, but this is probably being too serious about the whole thing. :P

So it's not the fact that the darkspawn were rushing to contact that I think is silly. Sure, you can use their stamina to help explain it even more, but that's not really the issue.

The problem I saw with the tactics at Ostagar was more on the Fereldan side. On the bright side, the Fereldans did do some things 'right'. They released their mabari to slow down the charging darkspawn and entangle them in a nasty close-quarters fight long before they reached the Ostagar fortifications. But other than that...well...the countercharge was stupid (why abandon the fortifications?) the single arrow volley at close range was silly in all kinds of respects, there was no real skirmishing before the engagement, and they relied on the voice of a single man to relay orders, which doesn't work unless you've got a couple hundred soldiers at best.

Then there's the issue of how, later in the battle, apparently all sense of formation had completely dissolved into a series of individual melees all across the field. For one thing, this is bizarre - given the amount of dispersion, it implies a truly outrageous amount of casualties suffered by both armies that there would be so few troops in view at any one time. And I don't think that the darkspawn absorbed fifty-plus percent casualties, or whatever. It seems, ah, unlikely. For another thing, although it's a common trope in moviemaking and video games to show battles degenerating into that sort of individual melee, it's very uncommon from a historical point of view. Even relatively amorphous formations don't completely disintegrate. And it's a truism that at any given point in time, most of the soldiers on a battlefield aren't actually fighting.

I believe that these things were not shown that way in Dragon Age: Origins to get the players to make deep inferences about the nature of the Battle of Ostagar and the Fereldan military in general. They were just shown that way because it's the sort of thing you'd expect in a cutscene. I think that they just go to show that there is a segregation between lore, gameplay, and cutscenes. Sometimes, they will reinforce one another; often, they will undercut each other instead.

---

You brought up something that does point up the dangers of fighting a Blight. Just what, exactly, prevents an archdemon from simply hanging out in the Deep Roads the entire time while its darkspawn ravage the surface? Urthemiel apparently did just that during the Battle of Ostagar. We should count ourselves lucky that it did not do the same at Denerim. Command and control doesn't appear to have been an issue; perhaps the taint and the 'hive-mind' qualities associated with it obviate any need for proximity on the part of the Blights' leaders. Do the Wardens have some sort of contingency plan in the event that a Blight occurs with an archdemon nowhere in sight? It's a fairly troubling plan of campaign that relies on an enemy to make a colossal mistake which that enemy has no actual incentive to make.

Or, perhaps, the archdemon was present at Ostagar but didn't actually show itself, then went back to the Deep Roads to hang out until Denerim okay yeah that seems unlikely.
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#22
Xilizhra

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There actually was skirmishing before the main fight. Cailan mentions having won three battles against the darkspawn before when the PC arrives at Ostagar. I do have some doubts about the Fereldan tactics similar to your own, though, with a similar enough explanation.

 

As for the archdemon... this is just a guess, but I think the same urge that drives the archdemon to lead a Blight in the first place will eventually overcome its self-restraint and it'll come to the surface to wreak destruction itself. Darkspawn and ghouls alike seem to possess innate bloodlust, and the archdemon having the same affliction would explain why it comes to the surface despite not actually needing to.



#23
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There actually was skirmishing before the main fight. Cailan mentions having won three battles against the darkspawn before when the PC arrives at Ostagar. I do have some doubts about the Fereldan tactics similar to your own, though, with a similar enough explanation.
 
As for the archdemon... this is just a guess, but I think the same urge that drives the archdemon to lead a Blight in the first place will eventually overcome its self-restraint and it'll come to the surface to wreak destruction itself. Darkspawn and ghouls alike seem to possess innate bloodlust, and the archdemon having the same affliction would explain why it comes to the surface despite not actually needing to.


That's a different definition of skirmishing. You're talking about it in an operational sense: smaller-scale engagements that happen before, between, and after the big battles in a campaign. I was talking about it in a tactical sense: lightly-armed missile infantry and/or cavalry engaging the enemy on the field of battle prior to a set-piece engagement, to inflict attritive casualties, create more advantageous tactical situations for the deploying heavy infantry, develop the enemy's position and capabilities, and generally to harass and annoy the rest of the enemy army. We didn't really get any of that; from the evidence of the game, the only effort the Fereldans really made in that direction was to dispatch the odd scouting party into the Korcari Wilds before the battle. There was no integrated skirmishing component of the plan for the set-piece battle itself. Instead, the darkspawn emerged more or less at once in front of the Ostagar fortifications, and the Fereldans gave them one close-range arrow volley before the two armies engaged.

---

I was thinking about it for a bit, and decided that you might hypothesize some sort of proximity effect for the archdemon based on DA:O. Even though the archdemon was not witnessed aboveground at Ostagar, the Ostagar battle site was still fairly close to the initial darkspawn outbreak from the Deep Roads. Perhaps the archdemon was still relatively close, even if it didn't show itself in person. However, sustained long-distance campaigns would require the archdemon's personal appearance aboveground to maintain that sort of proximity, otherwise its darkspawn forces would suffer from severe reductions in combat capability. So when it made its attack on Denerim, it had to personally accompany its forces in order to ensure that they, well, fought properly.

It offers an interesting sort of conundrum for the forces of Thedosian civilization when combating a Blight. What target do you attack first? Killing the archdemon, true enough, would end a Blight. But under this reasoning, darkspawn hordes personally led by an archdemon would be much more dangerous than hordes further away. If you believe that darkspawn numbers aren't essentially infinite, it might make sense to focus instead on darkspawn armies far away from the archdemon, so as to be better assured of victory. Rack up enough such victories and eventually you'll isolate the archdemon's army by itself against hopefully superior numbers. This is the sort of scheme that the Allies used against Napoleon in the War of the Sixth Coalition, the so-called Trachenberg Plan. They focused their efforts against forces led by the Emperor's less capable subordinates, such that when the time came to try conclusions with the God of War himself at Leipzig, the Allies had numerical superiority and tactical advantage.

The drawback to this, of course, is that it has a very serious probability of prolonging any Blight. Which is a very bad thing, especially if the darkspawn are in places where they can attack civilians and those supporting the war effort. Something that looks good on a sand-table exercise might have dramatically negative real-world consequences. Hell, that's the argument I brought up against Loghain's decision to retreat from Ostagar in the OP.

Still, I think that the strategic puzzle is at least worth contemplating in the abstract.
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#24
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I think it was early in the blight and that the archdemon only shows when things are bigger. That's the impression I get. The archdemon, while definitely a force to be taken seriously, can still be killed and does appear to have intelligence if it is guiding the hoard. So from the perspective of it having some kind of intelligence where it senses you and you hear it as the hoard hears it, it would not be wise to show itself too soon. It would be wisest to gather its forces and let them march through the land under your command then it is ready to fully wage war as we see in denerim, that is where it would appear. Before then and there would be still too many areas with population that could assist. While none of them could kill an archdemon, they all can do it damage. At least that is the way it seems to me. It has no need to show in Ostagar. The blight is in its infancy though it appears to have vast forces from the cutscenes, it is still in the deep south. It hasn't even reached lothering yet. This is the very beginning for it. So I think it was guiding forces, speaking to them as it is put, but not yet ready to join the battle. By the time they are headed to Denerim, it has taken the south and the blight is well underway no longer in initial stages. If I were the archdemon, that's how I would do it.



#25
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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I think it was early in the blight and that the archdemon only shows when things are bigger. That's the impression I get. The archdemon, while definitely a force to be taken seriously, can still be killed and does appear to have intelligence if it is guiding the hoard. So from the perspective of it having some kind of intelligence where it senses you and you hear it as the hoard hears it, it would not be wise to show itself too soon. It would be wisest to gather its forces and let them march through the land under your command then it is ready to fully wage war as we see in denerim, that is where it would appear. Before then and there would be still too many areas with population that could assist. While none of them could kill an archdemon, they all can do it damage. At least that is the way it seems to me. It has no need to show in Ostagar. The blight is in its infancy though it appears to have vast forces from the cutscenes, it is still in the deep south. It hasn't even reached lothering yet. This is the very beginning for it. So I think it was guiding forces, speaking to them as it is put, but not yet ready to join the battle. By the time they are headed to Denerim, it has taken the south and the blight is well underway no longer in initial stages. If I were the archdemon, that's how I would do it.

It might even be that Urthemiel was waiting until there were fewer Grey Wardens.