1069 réponses à ce sujet

[Divine Justinia V]

Seriously can you stop going on with your debate and take it somewhere else. I've already asked once.

[Master Warder Z_]

And who says it "wasn't their politics"? We only know the opinions of a few.

 

I'm going by simple self preservation here, Fighting an unwanted war is bad for that.

[MisterJB]

There's a difference between wanting something and having no choice because the alternative is worse.

The alternative needn't be worse if Adrian had not done what she did. It's not that complex.

[MisterJB]

You're such a ****** dad <_<''

 

And Uzumaki.

 

._. Only one in a thousand years to posses the Rinnegan?

 

...before that **** kishimoto decided lul emergancy surgery when he decided to unveil their origins anyway

Oh right, red haired women; very feisty. Good times, good times.

 

And born with the Rinnegan too? Quite the accomplishment.

[Mockingword]

There's a difference between wanting something and having no choice because the alternative is worse.

The alternative needn't be worse if Adrian had not done what she did. It's not that complex.

It need not be.

 

Except that it was.

[wright1978]

There's a difference between wanting something and having no choice because the alternative is worse.
The alternative needn't be worse if Adrian had not done what she did. It's not that complex.

She's perfectly entitled to view the alternative of kicking the can down the road for a little longer as worse.

[Xilizhra]

Yes, the tension was there but the majority still wanted nothing to do with fighting a war. The reason they voted on it was because the alternative was to return to the Circles and hope it didn't result in even greater restrictions.

Adrian did not do something that mages were praying for; she placed innocent people against a rock and a hard place so they would be forced to fight their way out of it because she believed she alone knew what was best for everyone and anyone who didn't agree with her was a fool.

The average mage is not going to this war with the mentality of "YES, finally we will fight for our liberty" but rather "We don't really have a choice, do we? Please Maker, don't let me die."

 

How Pro-mages can support that little **** is beyond me.

It's amusing that you think you can discern the mindset of the "average mage," but most people aren't naturally inclined to be freedom fighters no matter how bad their oppression is, which is how tyrants can get away with tyranny for so long. It doesn't make them any less needing of overthrow.

[MisterJB]

She's perfectly entitled to view the alternative of kicking the can down the road for a little longer as worse.

Yes. It's when she forces everyone to abide by her viewpoint or die that I have a problem with her.

 

It need not be.

 

Except that it was.

Because of Adrian.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I can say for near certainty that the majority of mages didn't want to die in a war that wasn't for their politics and instead something to feed the ego of a few select loonies.

 

going to war for "lul reasons" isn't the same as serving in an army and going to war.

I'm just not sure what would make anyone here more qualified to estimate what the majority of mages wanted than Adrian was. Sure, she had bias, but so do you. The mages don't actually vote by population, so we're all just guessing. Most of the towers had already fallen and there wasn't much evidence that the templars were going to go easy on them if they just gave themselves up. In fact, most of the templars had rebelled because they wanted the circles to crack down. It's not really hard to see why a mage would be inclined to think what was better for her and her kind was to strike before the templars had them (metaphorically, hopefully) bent over. They annulled Kirkwall because of the choice of one mage that didn't even belong to the circle, so it's not a hard stretch to say they might be a little antsy about what would happen if all the mages agreed to let their guard down and go back into the circles under templar control.

 

I'm not saying you have to agree with it, or even that I think her methods were right, but I don't think it's hard to actually see her reasoning if you look at the situation from her perspective. 

[Xilizhra]

Yes. It's when she forces everyone to abide by her viewpoint or die that I have a problem with her.

And why would they die? Because the templars would kill them. You're engaged in something rather similar to victim-blaming here.

[Master Warder Z_]

And why would they die? Because the templars would kill them. You're engaged in something rather similar to victim-blaming here.

 

And why would the Templars kill them? Because of the actions of a few.

 

You're engaged in something rather similar to mass victimization.

 

It's just easier to blame the system for the faults rather then the rot within it to some i think.

[MisterJB]

I'm just not sure what would make anyone here more qualified to estimate what the majority of mages wanted than Adrian was. Sure, she had bias, but so do you. The mages don't actually vote by population, so we're all just guessing. Most of the towers had already fallen and there wasn't much evidence that the templars were going to go easy on them if they just gave themselves up. In fact, most of the templars had rebelled because they wanted the circles to crack down. It's not really hard to see why a mage would be inclined to think what was better for her and her kind was to strike before the templars had them (metaphorically, hopefully) bent over. They annulled Kirkwall because of the choice of one mage that didn't even belong to the circle, so it's not a hard stretch to say they might be a little antsy about what would happen if all the mages agreed to let their guard down and go back into the circles under templar control.

 

I'm not saying you have to agree with it, or even that I think her methods were right, but I don't think it's hard to actually see her reasoning if you look at the situation from her perspective. 

You seem to have misunderstood the chronology of the situation; the reason things were that bad was because of Adrian's crimes.

Or I am misunderstanding you and you were referring to her vote.

[wright1978]

Yes. It's when she forces everyone to abide by her viewpoint or die that I have a problem with her.
 

She threw some extra fuel on the fire but she didn't force them.

[MisterJB]

She threw some extra fuel on the fire but she didn't force them.

She didn't physically twist their arms, no. But that is not the only way of forcing people to do what you want.

[Xilizhra]

And why would the Templars kill them? Because of the actions of a few.

 

You're engaged in something rather similar to mass victimization.

 

It's just easier to blame the system for the faults rather then the rot within it to some i think.

Well, the templars could just heed the Chantry in this matter.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

You seem to have misunderstood the chronology of the situation; the reason things were that bad was because of Adrian's crimes.

Or I am misunderstanding you and you were referring to her vote.

No, I know Rhys made his vote after her actions, but there was already a huge revolt after the Kirkwall incident and basically the only thing holding the system together still was Wynne. It's not as if there was a real, popular vote to see what the majority wanted at this point. The meeting was still just basically the opinions of fraternity leaders. It could easily be anyone's guess whether the majority of Wynne's fraternity actually agreed with her, if they had the means to take a real vote. It could have gone either way. 

[Ianamus]

And why would they die? Because the templars would kill them. You're engaged in something rather similar to victim-blaming here.

 

I don't think these "victim blaming" arguments hold up at all. 

 

Let's say my village is suffering a food shortage and life is hard, but livable. There is a lot of food on the other side of the valley, but the valley is filled with barbarians who kill on sight. Half of my village want to try to get to the other side, the other half want to stay. I fix the vote, forcing everyone to go with me because I believe we should go to the other side. A quarter of the village are killed while making the journey. 

 

We are all "victims" of the barbarians, but I am still to blame for the deaths of those who wished to stay because I knew the barbarians would try to kill them if we crossed but I forced them to anyway. 

[MisterJB]

No, I know Rhys made his vote after her actions, but there was already a huge revolt after the Kirkwall incident and basically the only thing holding the system together still was Wynne. It's not as if there was a real, popular vote to see what the majority wanted at this point. The meeting was still just basically the opinions of fraternity leaders. It could easily be anyone's guess whether the majority of Wynne's fraternity actually agreed with her, if they had the means to take a real vote. It could have gone either way. 

Most of the Circles hadn't fallen and the Templars weren't rebelling prior to Adrian's crimes.

[Mockingword]

I don't think these "victim blaming" arguments hold up at all. 

 

Let's say my village is suffering a food shortage and life is hard, but livable. There is a lot of food on the other side of the valley, but the valley is filled with barbarians who kill on sight. Half of my village want to try to get to the other side, the other half want to stay. I fix the vote, forcing everyone to go with me because I believe we should go to the other side. A quarter of the village are killed while making the journey. 

 

We are all "victims" of the barbarians, but I am still to blame for the deaths of those who wished to stay because I knew the barbarians would try to kill them if we crossed but I forced them to anyway. 

No, you're not? The barbarians are absolutely responsible for their own actions. Even if you're well aware that there are barbarians hanging out in that dark valleyway, walking through it does not entitle them to barb you or your friends.

[wright1978]

She didn't physically twist their arms, no. But that is not the only way of forcing people to do what you want.

She manipulated the situation sure but then equally say that the current system had been placed the dominos in such a place where one untruth caused the rest of the dominos to fall in a cascade effect. If the system had have been in any way healthy that one little push would have been a ripple that would have disappeared rather than causing an immediate collapse.

[Xilizhra]

I don't think these "victim blaming" arguments hold up at all. 

 

Let's say my village is suffering a food shortage and life is hard, but livable. There is a lot of food on the other side of the valley, but the valley is filled with barbarians who kill on sight. Half of my village want to try to get to the other side, the other half want to stay. I fix the vote, forcing everyone to go with me because I believe we should go to the other side. A quarter of the village are killed while making the journey. 

 

We are all "victims" of the barbarians, but I am still to blame for the deaths of those who wished to stay because I knew the barbarians would try to kill them if we crossed but I forced them to anyway. 

While also taking the credit for staving off famine, keep in mind. And you may be to blame for creating a risky situation, but not for directly killing anyone.

[Mockingword]

Because of Adrian.

No, because of the templars and the seekers.

 

It doesn't matter one whit what Adrian or any other mage did. Her actions don't justify the brutality of the seekers and the templars in the face of what would otherwise have been a peaceful secession.

 

Lambert was the one who declared war on the mages. He is responsible.

[LobselVith8]

In all seriousness, a country where mages are the exclusive leadership over non-mages isn't any better or worse than a country where non-mages are the exclusive leaders over mages. That fact alone doesn't make Tevinter worse than everywhere else that takes the opposite stance.

That being said, I don't really advocate anyone having complete control over anyone else. I definitely don't advocate a lot of the injustices those in the power positions have inflicted on the subjugated party.

Mages can be slaves as well in Tevinter; even Fenris' sister Varania was a slave until he competed, and used a boon to earn freedom for her and his mother. Interestingly enough, Varania also showed that elves can become Magisters.

[Lillian]

...........

So what context do you think we'll see Adrian in, if she is in DA:I?

[Mockingword]

Probably something related to obtaining support from the mages.

 

Although, honestly, I can't see her being involved a great deal. She's not really "in charge". If anything, I imagine we'd be dealing with Rhys or perhaps Fiona directly.