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[Xilizhra]

Throw me sources of where we've seen Vivienne being manipulative because I've seen no evidence of that, especially considering we haven't even formally met her yet.

Uh, the Game?

 

 

 

I'll give you that, about in-game, but that wasn't her platform. The book was. Everyone else had character development but Adrian. She went from bad to worse, really, however I don't know if that's what you'd consider to be the development. Cole got his "redemption", or maybe vengeance depending on how you want to look at it.

Rhys, Evangeline, Cole and Wynne did, but no one else. And I don't really think Adrian got any worse.

 

 

 

I meant, what about her killing Pharamound? You're really going to tell me that it was a mercy kill? She wanted nothing to be in her way, she wanted this Rebellion possibly more than any other Mage but I personally think she just wanted to please Fiona and feel important. (not that I'm blaming Fi, you know I looovvvee her)

Either way, I'm fairly sure he found it merciful.

 

 

 

What I'm saying is, how awful can you be to set up not only your best, but ONLY friend and the man you love for murder and in the long run, because of your actions, causing his Mother's death -- and not being apologetic. So. Not weird.

I don't see how their relationship to her matters, objectively speaking.

 

None of their actions helped propel a giant war in Ferelden though. It's a little bit different. You have to look at the outcomes of each situation, because ultimately, that's possibly the worst part of what she did.

It's possible to dislike her for political reasons if you don't think the war was inevitable anyway, yes. I do not because I do think that.

[Divine Justinia V]

Uh, the Game?

 

But we don't know anything about how she plays the Game, or anything surrounding that. We virtually know nothing about Vivienne when it comes to her methods or morals or what ever. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but we simply do not know. You can't base facts on assumptions.

 

 

Rhys, Evangeline, Cole and Wynne did, but no one else. And I don't really think Adrian got any worse.

 

Killing Pharamound and framing Rhys by the end of the story is worse.

 

 

Either way, I'm fairly sure he found it merciful.

 

We don't know that, and we don't know if he didn't.

In my opinion, it wasn't out of mercy. But to continue taking down anything in her way of war.

 

 

I don't see how their relationship to her matters, objectively speaking.

 

I mean.... how hollow can you be, if the only person that's taken the time to be your friend for years doesn't matter to you?

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I think it's really subjective what the "worst" thing one of the DA world characters have done is. To me, the worst I can think of offhand, outside obvious villains, is Sten's situation with the family that took him in and Isabela drowning the slaves to save her own ass. Feeling bad just doesn't really ever make up for it, to me. They took completely innocent lives, one for literally no reason, the other just to save their own ass when what they were doing was already abhorrently wrong. I can't really wholly forgive their characters. Those innocent people can never get their lives back and I don't think anything these two can do will ever really make up for that.

 

What Adrian did, I do not agree with. At least I can see more justification behind it than I can see for the other two. She thought what she was doing was for the greater good. She believed in a cause and that her actions would help people. She did let others take the fall for that cause, but at least the cause wasn't limited only to her own self-preservation and it wasn't based on something she necessarily brought on herself. 

 

I'm not really saying I like Adrian, I'm definitely not saying I wholly agree with her methods. However, I don't think she's the least sympathetic out of the transgressions we've seen from other characters. There's also still a chance that she will, in the future, want to atone for what she did. Her character hasn't gotten a wide span of exposure.  

[Xilizhra]

But we don't know anything about how she plays the Game, or anything surrounding that. We virtually know nothing about Vivienne when it comes to her methods or morals or what ever. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but we simply do not know. You can't base facts on assumptions.

The Game is a gigantic orgy of manipulation from everything I know about it.

 

Killing Pharamound and framing Rhys by the end of the story is worse.

In your opinion.

 

I mean.... how hollow can you be, if the only person that's taken the time to be your friend for years doesn't matter to you?

He does. But some things matter more, and what's personal isn't necessarily what's important.

[TurretSyndrome]

I'm not saying that at all.

What I'm saying is, how awful can you be to set up not only your best, but ONLY friend and the man you love for murder and in the long run, because of your actions, causing his Mother's death -- and not being apologetic. So. Not weird.

 

Should one be an awful person to commit what Adrian did, or desperate? Was Anders an awful person to blow up the Chantry and doom the Kirkwall Circle or desperate? It's true that her actions resulted in Wynne's death but I doubt that was in her plan. 

 

At best she's displaying a "whatever it takes" attitude and doesn't regret her actions. If I feel the same way about the issue(remember IF), I'm sure I won't regret anything that results from my actions(even Wynne's death), because it really won't help my cause. The only thing to do is to move forward, not look back and drown in regret. 

 

Also, in the book, the author didn't really concentrate on her feelings about her actions, so I suggest not to get too emotional about this without knowing how she really felt. Even if she felt the same way about Rhys as you assume it to be, she probably feels that her cause is more important than anything else. Anders was the same in this case.

[Lulupab]

I don't understand why being apologetic or feeling remorse immediately makes characters who have done worse things than the character in question, A-OK. If she feels strongly that that is what is needed to be done, then she does not need to apologize, and probably won't. People seem to seek an apology letter from her like Anders than just disliking her for her actions or disagreeing with her. Weird.

 

Its not about just apology or remorse. Anders did it so no one else has to. He realized it would never stop and someone was eventually going to use drastic measures he decided he must be that person. I mean we should think for a moment that what Anders gained from it? Nothing other than singing his own death song. It may sound self righteous but its also selfless. He truly cared for mages and always had a hard time accepting it when he saw evil mages. You can have problems with his political view or what he did but I can respect someone like this.

 

Adrian is too far away from being such a person however as I said I will not kill her as soon as I see her even if given chance. I'd like to hear what she has to say and see how it goes

[Divine Justinia V]

The Game is a gigantic orgy of manipulation from everything I know about it.

 

We don't know anything about Vivienne to judge her. We had a whole book about Adrian. Comparing the too is far fetched.

 

 

In your opinion.

 

In the beginning of the book she was just hot headed and aggressive, you don't think murder and framing a murder is a step up from that? Okay.

 

 

He does. But some things matter more, and what's personal isn't necessarily what's important.

 

There were other methods to achieve what she wanted. Obviously you, and everyone else, knows I'm pro-mage. Adrian's methods were beyond questionable. At the least.

[Xilizhra]

We don't know anything about Vivienne to judge her. We had a whole book about Adrian. Comparing the too is far fetched.

I don't know. That food comparison speaks volumes.

 

There were other methods to achieve what she wanted. Obviously you, and everyone else, knows I'm pro-mage. Adrian's methods were beyond questionable. At the least.

Other methods? Do tell.

[Divine Justinia V]

Its not about just apology or remorse. Anders did it so no one else has to. He realized it would never stop and someone was eventually going to use drastic measures he decided he must be that person. I mean we should think for a moment that what Anders gained from it? Nothing other than singing his own death song. It may sound self righteous but its also selfless. He truly cared for mages and always had a hard time accepting it when he saw evil mages. You can have problems with his political view or what he did but I can respect someone like this.

 

Adrian is too far away from being such a person however as I said I will not kill her as soon as I see her even if given chance. I'd like to hear what she has to say and see how it goes

 

This is basically my point. Anders wants to be the only one involved in this mess, he takes full responsibility.

Adrian cowers behind Rhys, blaming him, instead of taking care of things herself, by herself.

[Divine Justinia V]

I don't know. That food comparison speaks volumes.

 

You're literally judging an entire character based off of a couple facts. You haven't liked Vivienne since we found out how she's "stuck up" or however you want to describe her. You continue using her in this, as a comparison, when we don't even know her lol. Pull up their wikis. There's a bit of an imbalance there.

 

 

Other methods? Do tell.

 

If Anders could figure it out and be solely responsible, so could've she.

[Xilizhra]

You're literally judging an entire character based off of a couple facts. You haven't liked Vivienne since we found out how she's "stuck up" or however you want to describe her. You continue using her in this, as a comparison, when we don't even know her lol. Pull up their wikis. There's a bit of an imbalance there.

Very well. I'll resume using the comparison after we know enough about her..

 

If Anders could figure it out and be solely responsible, so could've she.

Well, she probably doesn't have the bomb recipe or the freedom of movement to go digging in sewers and drakestone quarries to make it, so that rather limits what she can do that would have effects larger than just the templars killing her personally.

[TTTX]

I think that's more or less what she'd be if she were to show.

well of course she would be a lose end from the novels, but we don't her to be one of those "You and me we fight now" and then we kill her and that's it without learning her motives, remember not everyone reads the novels.so you need some personality and some explanations on their motives.

 

In Kai Lames case we got nothing in ME3, he was just there with so much plot shields that it was beyond ridicules.

[TurretSyndrome]

Its not about just apology or remorse. Anders did it so no one else has to. He realized it would never stop and someone was eventually going to use drastic measures he decided he must be that person. I mean we should think for a moment that what Anders gained from it? Nothing other than singing his own death song. It may sound self righteous but its also selfless. He truly cared for mages and always had a hard time accepting it when he saw evil mages. You can have problems with his political view or what he did but I can respect someone like this.

 

Adrian is too far away from being such a person however as I said I will not kill her as soon as I see her even if given chance. I'd like to hear what she has to say and see how it goes

 

In that case, neither Adrian nor Anders had anything to gain from their actions. It's all subjective. The only difference was that her methods were perhaps questionable than Anders'.

 

As I said, people are too hell bent on hating her because she might not hate herself for doing things the way she did.

[Divine Justinia V]

Well, she probably doesn't have the bomb recipe or the freedom of movement to go digging in sewers and drakestone quarries to make it, so that rather limits what she can do that would have effects larger than just the templars killing her personally.

 

Come on, Xil, you're really going to tell me -- she was smart enough to come up with a plan to set up Rhys but she wasn't smart enough to come up with a plan that didn't involve anyone but her? She's a coward.

[Divine Justinia V]

well of course she would be a lose end from the novels, but we don't her to be one of those "You and me we fight now" and then we kill her and that's it without learning her motives, remember not everyone reads the novels.so you need some personality and some explanations on their motives.

 

In Kai Lames case we got nothing in ME3, he was just there with so much plot shields that it was beyond ridicules.

 

Yeah, I'd hate for it to be that way, I would rather it not be.

 

lol kai "lame".

[Xilizhra]

Come on, Xil, you're really going to tell me -- she was smart enough to come up with a plan to set up Rhys but she wasn't smart enough to come up with a plan that didn't involve anyone but her? She's a coward.

Well, yeah. Lambert would have gone for Rhys anyway, as Rhys was under suspicion for Cole's murders.

[Divine Justinia V]

Well, yeah. Lambert would have gone for Rhys anyway, as Rhys was under suspicion for Cole's murders.

 

that's speculation

[Warden Nick]

Who's Adrian?

[Divine Justinia V]

Who's Adrian?

 

She was a Mage, the now First Enchanter of the old White Spire Circle, in Val Royeaux in Orlais -- which took place in the novel, Dragon Age: Asunder.

[TTTX]

In your opinion.

I pretty much agree with this.

 

From what I remember reading about Adrian on the Wiki page, she is in the extreme end of mages freedom movement and she is the spokesperson of Libertarians, which have proven in the past that they are willing to do everything (including) to break out of the circles so yeah it shouldn't be that much of a surprise that she did as she did.

 

I'm pro mage put, I'm not one of those every mage should be free from the circle, because mages needs training from a young age or else they become a bigger bomb then they are, I'm more for improvements inside the circle system itself after all the system has worked over all well for almost a 1000 years and after all people's fear of magic is well founded because various reasons like abominations, the miss use blood magic etc. Letting mages lose without some sort of system is well a very short sighted plan at best.

[JeffZero]

I hope so.

[Divine Justinia V]

I pretty much agree with this.

 

From what I remember reading about Adrian on the Wiki page, she is in the extreme end of mages freedom movement and she is the spokesperson of Libertarians, which have proven in the past that they are willing to do everything (including) to break out of the circles so yeah it shouldn't be that much of a surprise that she did as she did.

 

I'm pro mage put, I'm not one of those every mage should be free from the circle, because mages needs training from a young age or else they become a bigger bomb then they are, I'm more for improvements inside the circle system itself after all the system has worked over all well for almost a 1000 years and after all people's fear of magic is well founded because various reasons like abominations, the miss use blood magic etc. Letting mages lose without some sort of system is well a very short sighted plan at best.

 

Everything aside about Mages, my biggest qualm with Adrian is that she involved others instead of handling things herself.

[TTTX]

Yeah, I'd hate for it to be that way, I would rather it not be.

 

lol kai "lame".

Kai was Lame in ME3, so now the fans call him Kai Lame.

 

That's what happen when you don't take your time to properly interdoce a character and at least give some proper motives, Loghian had very good reasons to distrusts Orlais, problem it clouded his judgment against the Darkspawn.

[Divine Justinia V]

One good thing about having Adrian in Inquisition, would mean freckles would be in-game because her red freckles are a trademark

[TTTX]

Everything aside about Mages, my biggest qualm with Adrian is that she involved others instead of handling things herself.

That's what Master minds usually do, that way it can't be traced back to them.