1305 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Sounds more like she's as impressionable as silly putty.

This is why I've come to the reluctant conclusion that Carver is a better character and mage is overall a better class storywise.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think Bethany's reaction to pro templar Hawke makes a little more sense when you consider what she just saw Orsino, who she clearly trusted, admit to aiding the person who killed her mother and just morph into a massive undead monstrosity to try to kill her only other sibling.

 

On the Pro-Circle side, she doesn't exactly say the Maker gave her a mission to free mages, she says she no longer believes it is his will they be locked up.

[EmissaryofLies]

Which is pretty much the same sentiment. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

No it isn't.

[Master Warder Z_]

No it isn't.

 

*Gives Orion a Butterscotch*

[EmissaryofLies]

Yes, it is. 

 

Semantics are rubbish. 

 

"On the Pro-Circle side, she doesn't exactly say the Maker gave her a mission to free mages, she says she no longer believes it is his will they be locked up."

 

She is ultimately against the status quo, that is the Circle System, that is mages ' locked up'. Simply taking out her personal involvement does not change the opinion, sentiment or outcome. 

 

Ultimately, Bethany means absolutely nothing, however. 

[MisterJB]

Which is pretty much the same sentiment. 

 

Hum...no.

Bethany's possible belief that it is not the will of the Maker that mages be in the Circles means only and exclusively that. It does not mean that she believes the Maker wants mages to be free; as far as we know, Bethany believes the Maker is apathetic regarding the whole nasty business; much less that he actually gave her a mission.

[EmissaryofLies]

Hum...no.

Bethany's possible belief that it is not the will of the Maker that mages be in the Circles means only and exclusively that. It does not mean that she believes the Maker wants mages to be free; as far as we know, Bethany believes the Maker is apathetic regarding the whole nasty business; much less that he actually gave her a mission.

 

Believe what you will about what little you have. 

 

 

 

 

4:35-4:50 

 

Her exact damned words. 

 

Edit: lmfao watch the rest too. 

[Xilizhra]

4:35-4:50 

 

Her exact damned words. 

 

Edit: lmfao watch the rest too.

5:10-5:15 is where she says she sees the need to free her fellow mages.

[Master Warder Z_]

4:35-4:50

 

Her exact damned words. 

 

She said the will of the maker wasn't in "imprisoning" them, she said nothing of a Divine mission to free them.

[EmissaryofLies]

I was more referring to Jedi's original sentiment. 

 

edit: The "his will" portion. 

[Master Warder Z_]

5:10-5:15 is where she says she sees the need to free her fellow mages.

 

Didn't infer it was the Maker's will she do so though, that was Orion was inferring...Or i believe so anyway.

[MisterJB]

And how exactly is it that "It is not by the will of the Maker that we are locked up and I think I should free my fellow mages" translate into "The Maker wants mages to be free and has given me a mission to do it."?

 

Assuming she is correct, the Maker's lack of love for the Circle system does not imply, in any way, a dislike for it and Bethany never claims otherwise so, the Maker might not care either way.

And there is also no connection whatsoever between "I did not order anyone to create this" and "I am ordering you to undo it". Bethany never implies her wish to conspire with her fellow mages stems from a divine order rather than her own convictions.

That she becomes pro-mage in the pro-mage ending is certainly true; but there is nothing in there that indicates she now believes she is in some sort of heavenly crusade.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Hum...no.

Bethany's possible belief that it is not the will of the Maker that mages be in the Circles means only and exclusively that. It does not mean that she believes the Maker wants mages to be free; as far as we know, Bethany believes the Maker is apathetic regarding the whole nasty business; much less that he actually gave her a mission.

I think this is about as true an interpretation of the words as Tevinter's interpretation of the divine purpose of magic. 

[EmissaryofLies]

Argue with the video and argue semantics all that you like. 

 

I've proven my statement to be irrefutably true with a direct quotation from the very person we are discussing. 

 

It is not my problem that you insist otherwise. 

 

 

I'd say that I was surprised, but I am not. 

[Xilizhra]

And how exactly is it that "It is not by the will of the Maker that we are locked up and I think I should free my fellow mages" translate into "The Maker wants mages to be free and has given me a mission to do it."?

 

Assuming she is correct, the Maker's lack of love for the Circle system does not imply, in any way, a dislike for it and Bethany never claims otherwise so, the Maker might not care either way.

And there is also no connection whatsoever between "I did not order anyone to create this" and "I am ordering you to undo it". Bethany never implies her wish to conspire with her fellow mages stems from a divine order rather than her own convictions.

That she become pro-mage in the pro-mage ending is certainly true; but there is nothing in there that indicates she now believes she is in some sort of heavenly crusade.

Grammatically possible but doubtful characterwise, as people who say "X doesn't want this" generally don't mean that X is indifferent to it.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well yeah. A divine mission to free mages is attaching much more significance to the cause than otherwise.

 

Second, it's not like Bethany's the only one who seems to be able to take radically different positions on the Last Straw quest. Full Rivalry Anders seems to do a complete 180 depending on which side he joins Hawke with. Merrill told my Pro-Templar Hawke "I'm sure it's for the best." Aveline seems to agree with a reason for protecting the mages or helping the templars. And Sebastian seems to be able to muster full support for whichever side Hawke guides him to.

[Master Warder Z_]

Argue with the video and argue semantics all that you like. 

 

I've proven my statement to be irrefutably true with a direct quotation from the very person we are discussing. 

 

It is not my problem that you insist otherwise. 

 

 

I'd say that I was surprised, but I am not. 

 

You're inferring she is meaning one thing, that isn't direct quotation as much as speculation given she has claimed no Divine Mission nor guidance of the Heavens, she claimed that she believed the Maker's will wasn't in imprisoning them, and that she had the belief she could help other mages by "freeing them" of the circle.

 

So to me? You're merely speculating on possible interpretation, little else given that i have said before that Bethany is all but a PC sponge when it comes to Mage/Templar viewpoint.

[Xilizhra]

Well yeah. A divine mission to free mages is attaching much more significance to the cause than otherwise.

 

Second, it's not like Bethany's the only one who seems to be able to take radically different positions on the Last Straw quest. Full Rivalry Anders seems to do a complete 180 depending on which side he joins Hawke with. Merrill told my Pro-Templar Hawke "I'm sure it's for the best." Aveline seems to agree with a reason for protecting the mages or helping the templars. And Sebastian seems to be able to muster full of for whichever side Hawke guides him to.

Fenris and Aveline both seem to imply that the only reason they're involved is loyalty to Hawke, so I think the mage side is ultimately more consistent with peoples' characters.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Fenris, yes. But Aveline says she sees what you are trying to do.

[MisterJB]

Argue with the video and argue semantics all that you like. 

 

I've proven my statement to be irrefutably true with a direct quotation from the very person we are discussing. 

 

It is not my problem that you insist otherwise. 

 

 

I'd say that I was surprised, but I am not. 

You proved that your statement of "Which is pretty much the same sentiment", which is your own interpretation of Bethany's words, is "irrefutably true" by quoting said words?

 

So, basically, you want to prove that your interpretation of something is correct by showing the already mentioned "something" rather than presenting arguments that correlate the "something" with your interpretation.

 

You're the type of player that believes throwing the pieces off the board means you won, right?

[shodiswe]

Someone who doesn't give a damn.

[Xilizhra]

Fenris, yes. But Aveline says she sees what you are trying to do.

Aveline also says "You really put loyalty to the test." She doesn't agree with what you're trying to do, but will go through with it because she knows you have good intentions and possibly see something she doesn't.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

She says that on the Templar side too. She's talking about Hawke putting loyalty to the test by dragging her into all these sticky situations.

[EmissaryofLies]

You're inferring she is meaning one thing, that isn't direct quotation as much as speculation given she has claimed no Divine Mission nor guidance of the Heavens, she claimed that she believed the Maker's will wasn't in imprisoning them, and that she had the belief she could help other mages by "freeing them" of the circle.

 

So to me? You're merely speculating on possible interpretation, little else given that i have said before that Bethany is all but a PC sponge when it comes to Mage/Templar viewpoint.

 

 

You proved that your statement of "Which is pretty much the same sentiment", which is your own interpretation of Bethany's words, is "irrefutably true" by quoting said words?

 

So, basically, you want to prove that your interpretation of something is correct by showing the already mentioned "something" rather than presenting arguments that correlate the "something" with your interpretation.

 

You're the type of player that believes throwing the pieces off the board means you won, right?

 

It is not just 'my own interpretation' btw. Bethany's exact words, tone, phrasing, inflection are as open to interpretation as the theory of gravity. 

 

Speculation? Inference? Really? And I already stated that Bethany ultimately means nothing. I've simply demonstrated that I am correct. I have provided evidence that is not flimsy nor reasonably open to the degree of interpretation that you'd lot have me believe it to be. There are no pieces, there is no board. 

 

My post "She is ultimately against the status quo, that is the Circle System, that is mages ' locked up'. Simply taking out her personal involvement does not change the opinion, sentiment or outcome."

 

 

 On the record I was only partially correct about what exactly Mage ending Bethany wanted. 

 

 

 

And where the hell is divine mission coming from?