1305 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

She says that on the Templar side too. She's talking about Hawke putting loyalty to the test by dragging her into all these sticky situations.

It doesn't change the "see what you are trying to do," which isn't an endorsement by any means.

[Ryzaki]

Are some of you seriously trying to argue one endings more valid than the other because of how easily the companions go along with it? Really?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

All I was trying to argue was that Bethany's different perspectives depending on the side Hawke chose are not that unusual.

[MisterJB]

And where the hell is divine mission coming from? 
 

 

From this.

 

 

I think Bethany's reaction to pro templar Hawke makes a little more sense when you consider what she just saw Orsino, who she clearly trusted, admit to aiding the person who killed her mother and just morph into a massive undead monstrosity to try to kill her only other sibling.

 

On the Pro-Circle side, she doesn't exactly say the Maker gave her a mission to free mages, she says she no longer believes it is his will they be locked up.

 

Which is pretty much the same sentiment.

 Anyone with a minimum bare understanding of the english language will understand that what you are saying here is that believing that it is not the will of the Maker that mages be locked up is the same sentiment as believing that the Maker gave her a mission to free the mages.

And don't try to backtrack into saying that what you meant was ""She is ultimately against the status quo, that is the Circle System, that is mages ' locked up'. Simply taking out her personal involvement does not change the opinion, sentiment or outcome."

 

Because absolutely nothing in JMO's post even indicates that he believed that Bethany supported the status quo.

 

And then I quoted the above post and wrote this

 

Hum...no.

Bethany's possible belief that it is not the will of the Maker that mages be in the Circles means only and exclusively that. It does not mean that she believes the Maker wants mages to be free; as far as we know, Bethany believes the Maker is apathetic regarding the whole nasty business; much less that he actually gave her a mission.

 

And then you quoted that post of mine and placed the video.

 

Believe what you will about what little you have. 

 

 

 

 

4:35-4:50 

 

Her exact damned words. 

 

Edit: lmfao watch the rest too.

 

 

Therefore, one thing is obvious. Either you realized that your original position of "Which is pretty much the same sentiment" is indefensible and thus tried to backtrack into "What I meant was that she opposed the status quo"

 

Or you don't actually read other people's post since Master Warder and I have already mentioning "divine mission" several times in posts you responded to.

 

Either way, you're worthless.

[LobselVith8]

She says it showed her how to cleanse the mirror with blood magic instead of lyrium. You're arguing semantics here now. She said, flat out said, it showed her how to cleanse the mirror with blood magic. That's teaching her how to use blood magic. In your argument, are you saying she took up blood magic for some other reason?

 

You seem to have misunderstood my point. I've never denied that Audacity taught Merrill blood magic. I've even pointed it out myself on several occasions. Merrill couldn't cleanse the shard of the taint with ordinary magic, so she required blood magic.

 

What I dispute is that Merrill made a deal with Audacity, which isn't addressed or implied in the narrative. Marethari initially disputes Merrill's activities over the claim that she will bring back the taint, and then changes her reasoning in Act III (with no explanation) by saying Audacity will use the restored Eluvian to escape it's prison; there's absolutely no one throughout the storyline who says that Merrill needed to make a deal with the trapped spirit in order to learn blood magic.

 

Considering that Audacity is sundered from the Fade and bound to a statute (by effectively being trapped in the real world), I don't see why some in the pro-templar camp argue that Merrill needed to make a deal with Audacity in order to learn blood magic. It's been more than a bit ridiculous that some debate this point being indisputable fact when there's literally nothing in the storyline that substantiates the idea that Merrill had to make a deal with Audacity, and considering it's condition, it's not comparable to the situation with Connor - with a Desire Demon who was in the Fade, and not effectively impotent as a result of being bound inside a statute for over a millennia like Audacity.

[Xilizhra]

Are some of you seriously trying to argue one endings more valid than the other because of how easily the companions go along with it? Really?

Well, one ending warps the characters significantly less.

[Ryzaki]

Well, one ending warps the characters significantly less.

 

In your opinion.

 

I found all the characters to have justified reasons for picking either side. The only one who could even count as "warped" is freaking Anders.

[Xilizhra]

In your opinion.

 

I found all the characters to have justified reasons for picking either side. The only one who could even count as "warped" is freaking Anders.

At least friended Anders retains integrity. Merrill just seems browbeaten, which is quite a shame.

[Ryzaki]

Yeah no. Merrill isn't browbeaten and you repeating that a dozen times doesn't make it true. Merrill is not someone who crumbles at the first sign of adversity or challenge. She's not a delicate mage flower that'll burst into tears just because her views are challenged or someone dares not to constantly agree with her on something. Her banters with Fenris and Anders make that abundantly clear and honestly the fact that you feel that a rivalrymance Hawke even an aggressive one would "break" her is pretty sad and makes me think you feel she's weak enough to crumble at the first sign of doubt. When that's not the case at all.

[LobselVith8]

At least friended Anders retains integrity. Merrill just seems browbeaten, which is quite a shame.

I've never really understood the appeal of Hawke proverbially bludgeoning Merrill with his opinions about issues that he's completely ignorant about. Hawke doesn't know anything about elven culture, he doesn't get her cultural or religious views about spirits and the Beyond, and he hasn't done any research on the Eluvians like Merrill did. The whole "I'm right because I'm human" trope is simply annoying.

[Mistic]

I've never really understood the appeal of Hawke proverbially bludgeoning Merrill with his opinions about issues that he's completely ignorant about. Hawke doesn't know anything about elven culture, he doesn't get her cultural or religious views about spirits and the Beyond, and he hasn't done any research on the Eluvians like Merrill did. The whole "I'm right because I'm human" trope is simply annoying.

 

Having a Keeper, a supposedly wiser and more responsible Dalish mage and leader of her clan, saying that what Merrill is doing is dangerous can make any given Hawke feel nervous about it. And demons and blood magic are known by any Thedosian culture, and they all know they're dangerous.

 

Depending on your playthrough, you can add the Night Terrors quest to that list and Merrill's own admission that the last time the Eluvian was activated something really bad happened (even to the Hero of Ferelden himself/herself, the most badass hero in the world, again depending on your playthrough). So a Hawke opposing Merrill has reasons behind his or her arguments. Doubly so if Hawke happens to be a mage.

 

If Hawke's arguments are right or not depends on your point of view. But it's not just "I'm right because I'm human".

[Ryzaki]

I've never really understood the appeal of Hawke proverbially bludgeoning Merrill with his opinions about issues that he's completely ignorant about. Hawke doesn't know anything about elven culture, he doesn't get her cultural or religious views about spirits and the Beyond, and he hasn't done any research on the Eluvians like Merrill did. The whole "I'm right because I'm human" trope is simply annoying.

 

Alright I was going to ignore this cause we did agree to disagree about the wholre rivalrymance/friendshipmance thing but honestly this is really starting to bother me. When does Hawke ever express this view? In fact Hawke can agree with Marethari her elder on the matter who quite clearly is an elf.

 

And bah lost some of my post but honestly 2 out of 4 (including Hawke) who have an issue with Merrill's BM are elves. How on earth are you getting Hawke being a human going "I know right cause human" from the rivalrymance? I mean...I'm just so confused as to how you even reached that conclusion.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 mars 2014 - 09:39 .

[Master Warder Z_]

Having a Keeper, a supposedly wiser and more responsible Dalish mage and leader of her clan, saying that what Merrill is doing is dangerous can make any given Hawke feel nervous about it. And demons and blood magic are known by any Thedosian culture, and they all know they're dangerous.

 

Depending on your playthrough, you can add the Night Terrors quest to that list and Merrill's own admission that the last time the Eluvian was activated something really bad happened (even to the Hero of Ferelden himself/herself, the most badass hero in the world, again depending on your playthrough). So a Hawke opposing Merrill has reasons behind his or her arguments. Doubly so if Hawke happens to be a mage.

 

If Hawke's arguments are right or not depends on your point of view. But it's not just "I'm right because I'm human".

 

Sometimes you say these things and i wonder why we can't agree more often.

[MisterJB]

Let me propose an agreement. I'll have my Hawke stop bothering Merril about the mirror if she stops messing with it in a human city.

Maybe I don't know much about the plight of the elves but I do know that if something goes South, it's the humans of Kirkwall who will die.  So she should take it somewhere else.

[Master Warder Z_]

Let me propose an agreement. I'll have my Hawke stop bothering Merril about the mirror if she stops messing with it in a human city.

Maybe I don't know much about the plight of the elves but I do know that if something goes South, it's the humans of Kirkwall who will die.  So she should take it somewhere else.

 

Fair compromise to me.

 

She should expriment with that thing in some blighted Wasteland, not one of the most populous cities of the Freemarches.

[Ryzaki]

Honestly that was my Hawke's main issue with as well. Her clan refused to let her mess with it around them. Why does she think it's suddenly okay to mess with it around people who know even less about it and have even less means of protecting themselves if things go south?

[LobselVith8]

Having a Keeper, a supposedly wiser and more responsible Dalish mage and leader of her clan, saying that what Merrill is doing is dangerous can make any given Hawke feel nervous about it. And demons and blood magic are known by any Thedosian culture, and they all know they're dangerous.

Marethari's argument that Merrill would bring the taint back can be seen as invalid, even by Hawke, given how she's handled the shard for years without becoming a ghoul, while Aveline's husband had to be euthanized because of the taint (and even Hawke's sibling can't last that long without Grey Warden interference).

Depending on your playthrough, you can add the Night Terrors quest to that list and Merrill's own admission that the last time the Eluvian was activated something really bad happened (even to the Hero of Ferelden himself/herself, the most badass hero in the world, again depending on your playthrough).

Because of the taint, which was removed from the shard.

So a Hawke opposing Merrill has reasons behind his or her arguments. Doubly so if Hawke happens to be a mage.

For being a blood mage? Sure. I can see why Andrastian Hawke might oppose her use of blood magic. For constructing the Eluvian? I disagree.

If Hawke's arguments are right or not depends on your point of view. But it's not just "I'm right because I'm human".

When Hawke's ignorance about the Eluvian doesn't prevent him from telling Merrill she's wrong, I don't agree.

[EmissaryofLies]

Anyone with a minimum bare understanding of the english language will understand that what you are saying here is that believing that it is not the will of the Maker that mages be locked up is the same sentiment as believing that the Maker gave her a mission to free the mages.

And don't try to backtrack into saying that what you meant was "She is ultimately against the status quo, that is the Circle System, that is mages ' locked up'. Simply taking out her personal involvement does not change the opinion, sentiment or outcome."


Therefore, one thing is obvious. Either you realized that your original position of "Which is pretty much the same sentiment" is indefensible and thus tried to backtrack into "What I meant was that she opposed the status quo"
 
Or you don't actually read other people's post since Master Warder and I have already mentioning "divine mission" several times in posts you responded to.
 
 
Either way, you're worthless.

 

That is what I meant. 
 
And I haven't backtracked a thing. I backed up my claims. You have utterly failed to do so. 
 
Your participation in this discussion is shrouded in dishonesty; you ****** in the wind, attack the poster and call it an argument while I provide actual evidence. 
 
In other words, you are completely full of sh*t.

[wcholcombe]

You know, every time I replay Broken Circle the only thing that comes to my mind is how incompetent and cowards those Templars are.

Wouldn't surprise me if the door wouldn't keep any abominations inside the Tower, they just believe it because that is the only thing they can do to not do in their pants and run for their momma.

Well considering the templars have runes that cancel magic and doors that are magic proof-the phylactery door I find it easy to believe the great doors will do the job they were likely designed to do.

[MisterJB]

Oh please, you didn't even try to counter the logic I used to prove how you either backtrack or just only read other people's posts when it suits you. And that is because you know I am right and it's better to try to move the argument away from it.

 

Oh, and you attacked me first.

 

 

Argue with the video and argue semantics all that you like. 

 

I've proven my statement to be irrefutably true with a direct quotation from the very person we are discussing. 

 

It is not my problem that you insist otherwise. 

 

 

I'd say that I was surprised, but I am not. 

[Ryzaki]

Alright saying Hawke knows nothing about what Merrill's doing (which is arguable but honestly that's not the point at the moment.)

 

Whether he's completely wrong or not. What the hell does that have to do with him thinking he's right because he's a human? Because you can argue about someone and be completely wrong and not be doing it for racist reasons. There's not a single reason whatsoever to believe Rivalry Hawke is doing it because Merrill's a silly elf and doesn't know better than her human betters. I will frankly say that seems like a reason dragged out of someone's ass. Now are there plenty of reasons to dislike the rivalrymance? Sure. But claiming human superiority as one of them is where you completely and utterly lose me. Because I didn't see a damn thing in game to support such. If you can show me something in the rivalrymance supporting such I'll recant but at the moment? No. Arguably the one close to racist comment in the romance is uttered by Merril with her stupid shelmen remark.

[Shadow Fox]

I've never really understood the appeal of Hawke proverbially bludgeoning Merrill with his opinions about issues that he's completely ignorant about. Hawke doesn't know anything about elven culture, he doesn't get her cultural or religious views about spirits and the Beyond, and he hasn't done any research on the Eluvians like Merrill did. The whole "I'm right because I'm human" trope is simply annoying.

No what's annoying is you thinking Merrill is infallible because she's an elf, and that Hawke can't have bloody common sense and be against Merrill delving in demons and messing with dangerous magical objects because you take umbrage at a human daring to question an elf.

[LobselVith8]

Alright saying Hawke knows nothing about what Merrill's doing (which is arguable but honestly that's not the point at the moment.)

Whether he's completely wrong or not. What the hell does that have to do with him thinking he's right because he's a human? Because you can argue about someone and be completely wrong and not be doing it for racist reasons. There's not a single reason whatsoever to believe Rivalry Hawke is doing it because Merrill's a silly elf and doesn't know better than her human betters. I will frankly say that seems like a reason dragged out of someone's ass. Now are there plenty of reasons to dislike the rivalrymance? Sure. But claiming human superiority as one of them is where you completely and utterly lose me. Because I didn't see a damn thing in game to support such. If you can show me something in the rivalrymance supporting such I'll recant but at the moment? No. Arguably the one close to racist comment in the romance is uttered by Merril with her stupid shelmen remark.

I think there's a misunderstanding here. I'm not saying rivalry Hawke, as a character, thinks this. I'm saying that it came across as that trope.

[Ryzaki]

I think there's a misunderstanding here. I'm not saying rivalry Hawke, as a character, thinks this. I'm saying that it came across as that trope.

 

 

Except even ELVES are against what Merrill's doing so you can't even argue it's the trope. Hell the only elf that's pro what Merrill is doing is Merrill!  Her whole clan was against it!

 

You're making something into a race issue when that's not even remotely the problem.

[wcholcombe]

No what's annoying is you thinking Merrill is infallible because she's an elf, and that Hawke can't have bloody common sense and be against Merrill delving in demons and messing with dangerous magical objects because you take umbrage at a human daring to question an elf.

You can't really argue that as he readily finds fault with merathari, its more Merrill is one of Lobs favorite characters and she will probably be canonized in the new dalish religion he wishes to start.

Nothing wrong with that, we all have our favorites.