1305 réponses à ce sujet

[GVulture]

I recall the point being that she's more informed about the Eluvians than anyone else in the narrative in Kirkwall, in contrast to Hawke's relative ignorance about the Eluvians.
 

 

WoG already pointed out Merrill gathered lore on the Eluvian.

 

Merrill said she believes they can help the People, which is why she pursues the construction of the Eluvian.

 

Marethari used that rationale to coerce Merrill to return to the clan, then completely changed her opposition to the Eluvian in Act III.

 

I never said she's without flaws; you might want to actually read what I've written before making those kind of claims about me.

Merrill is focused on helping the People. That's certainly her story arch.

 

You're confusing me with an entirely different poster now. You really should do something about that.

 

In Kirkwall. Which considering the intelligence levels of all the parties involved... that's not saying much. If Merrill had gotten a hold of the tome Morrigan had, there would be mention of it. Witch Hunt DLC was too big a deal to ignore its possible involvement in Merrill's search. Might be an assumption... but considering the Keeper says they left Ferelden directly after the events of the Dalish Origin... I doubt that Merrill got her hands on that VERY important piece of the puzzle.

 

Again. Morrigan is an expert because she knew how to read the Dalish tome and wasn't afraid to use it. Morrigan is not around for the events of DA2, which means, sadly... again... Merrill being the expert means jack squat. She even admits that she doesn't know enough but she THINKS she should be able to restore it. Not exactly a rousing vote of confidence.

 

The reason I say that you think she has no flaws it is because you refuse to acknowledge any. You have an argument for everything, even if it flies in the face of direct evidence both within the game and as WoG.

 

My last paragraph was directed more at the others in the thread who WERE complaining about the rival path. I am sorry that wasn't clear, I certainly wasn't mistaking you for them.

[Hellion Rex]

Ok...

[wcholcombe]

Your dismissive attitude about my previous statement, and being intentionally dishonest about the deification of Merrill when I've said literally nothing of the kind, were snide and offensive. I don't care for it.

Merrill is most certainly flawed and imperfect. She may have been wrong about the Eluvian; I've never denied that. That doesn't change the fact that Merrill put the time and effort into understanding as much as she could about the Eluvian, while Hawke formulates a judgement based on a few sound bytes.

Hawke is in the dark about this elven artifact, and Merrill - right or wrong - is the only one who we know that spent any time understanding as much about these artifacts as she could.

Having a human telling a non-human she's wrong about something that he's ignorant about simply makes that trope come across to me. Frankly, I don't see why I even need to defend how it came across to me to begin with.

Hold the phone, my statement had nothing to do with anything you actually said. My statement was in regards to another poster saying you only defended Merrill because she was an elf. It had no bearing on anything else. I am sorry the term cannonize offended you but it isn't actually making her a diet, I meant it as honoring herand you yourself have stated on at least 2 threads that you hoped Merrill would be regarded ad a Dalish hero. BTW, Lob you yourself have stated that Merrill is your favorite character and her vilification in previous threads is why you became promage.

We have had enough conversations on this forum that I would think you would have a better idea of how I post.

So no, there was nothing meant as dismissive or dishonest in my post, I was defending you from someone saying you were basically a racists for crying out loud.

[Ryzaki]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Having a human telling a non-human she's wrong about something that he's ignorant about simply makes that trope come across to me. Frankly, I don't see why I even need to defend how it came across to me to begin with.

 

That's not the human knows better trope. Like...at all.  The human knows better trope would have Hawke somehow know more about the Eluvian than anyone else does and have the elves pro the eluvian and human Hawke proves everyone wrong and himself right. The whole point of the trope is the human know better than the other species. Having one human and multiple (insert other species here) against it is not that trope. Hell the only one we know pro the Eluvian is Merrill.

 

It's not even a human version of the Can't Argue With Elves trope.

 

The second Merill's clan was against it along with Marethari and Fenris any chance of it being a human knows better trope went screaming down Sundermount.

[GVulture]

Letting Audacity loose and then trying to kill Merrill as an abomination - that's not exactly helping her in my book. I guess you have a much better opinion of that kind of logic than I do.


Technically, Hawke didn't have the right to receive the tool, since Merrill specifically asked for it. Marethari's disregard isn't really new, given how she kept the clan at Sundermount years longer than she was supposed to, and she freed Audacity...

**eye roll** The Keeper is trying to help you Merrill is before Act III, when the Keeper refuses her the knife, actually. So... your logic is not valid here.

 

No one is arguing that Hawke shouldn't have gotten the tool. That was completely Marethari being passive aggressive about the damn thing and I really hate that she does that. I wish there was an option to refuse it and then force Marethari to refuse Merrill, but considering that Hawke is railroaded into taking it... that's a problem with the narrative.

[Ryzaki]

**eye roll** The Keeper is trying to help you Merrill is before Act III, when the Keeper refuses her the knife, actually. So... your logic is not valid here.

 

No one is arguing that Hawke shouldn't have gotten the tool. That was completely Marethari being passive aggressive about the damn thing and I really hate that she does that. I wish there was an option to refuse it and then force Marethari to refuse Merrill, but considering that Hawke is railroaded into taking it... that's a problem with the narrative.

I think it was more likely it was some ancient law that she had to abide by (thus her reaction when Merrill invokes it) but she used a loophole to give it to Hawke in hopes he'd refuse Merill.

[Master Warder Z_]

I think it was more likely it was some ancient law that she had to abide by (thus her reaction when Merrill invokes it) but she used a loophole to give it to Hawke in hopes he'd refuse Merill.

 

Which smart Hawke aka rival Hawke does

[GVulture]

That's not the human knows better trope. Like...at all.  The human knows better trope would have Hawke somehow know more about the Eluvian than anyone else does and have the elves pro the eluvian and human Hawke proves everyone right. The whole point of the trope is the human know better than the other species. Having one human and multiple (insert other species here) against it is not that trope.

 

It's not even a human version of the Can't Argue With Elves trope.

 

The second Merill's clan was against it along with Marethari and Fenris any chance of it being a human knows better trope went screaming down Sundermount.

I am actually going to defend Lob here, and yes... that is exactly what is problematic with ALL of Merrill's writing. Although I think he means the Mighty Whitey trope. The idea that someone from outside a culture can come in and determine what is best and right for another culture... that kind of thing. It runs rampant through all of her writing. It's like Dany from Game of Thrones and her savior complex she develops in the last two books.

[GVulture]

I think it was more likely it was some ancient law that she had to abide by (thus her reaction when Merrill invokes it) but she used a loophole to give it to Hawke in hopes he'd refuse Merill.

See: passive aggressive.

[Master Warder Z_]

It's like Dany from Game of Thrones and her savior complex she develops in the last two books.

 

*Cough Stannis for King 2018 Cough*

[Ryzaki]

I am actually going to defend Lob here, and yes... that is exactly what is problematic with ALL of Merrill's writing. Although I think he means the Mighty Whitey trope. The idea that someone from outside a culture can come in and determine what is best and right for another culture... that kind of thing. It runs rampant through all of her writing. It's like Dany from Game of Thrones and her savior complex she develops in the last two books.

 

How exactly? Pretty much everyone that's not Merrill is against what she's doing. Mighty Whitey has it so the white person knows better than everyone else. Merrill's the only one in her corner. Hawke isn't judging what's best for the elven culture he/she is concerned about his/her culture and Merrill's safety. So...I'm not sure how you're comparing it to it. Hawke doesn't once say that her trying to research elven history is bad. It's her methods and how it's ended obsessive, lost her clan and lead her to bloodmagic that's the issue.

 

Another issue with that is Merrill takes her mirror away from her people and into human lands to do her research. If merrill was doing this somewhere isolated or in dalish lands my Hawke wouldn't have cared. She's not. Her clan made her take her research elsewhere in case it backfired and she decides to take it into a place where she fully admits to not having spared a real glance for the people right outside her door.

 

If anyone's trying to be mighty whitey in that scenario it's Merill.

 

Hawke isn't saying "Don't try to help your people!" but "Are these really the best methods? You've lost your clan over this you're using bloodmagic...over something you're not even sure how it works."

 

In Fenris words "You had a life, you had a family and you gave it up to chase after ghosts."

 

Which smart Hawke aka rival Hawke does

 

XD

 

See: passive aggressive.

 

Oh fine then

[GVulture]

*Cough Stannis for King 2018 Cough*

All hail the Queen of the North!

[GVulture]

Except that's not the case. Like really. Pretty much everyone that's not Merrill is against what she's doing. Hawke isn't judging what's best for the elven culture he/she is concerned about his/her culture and Merrill's safety. So...I'm not sure how you're comparing it to it. Hawke doesn't once say that her trying to research elven history is bad. It's her methods and how it's ended obsessive, lost her clan and lead her to bloodmagic that's the issue.

 

 

XD

 

 

Oh fine then

True, but it passes mighty close, especially if you're romancing her. =\

[Master Warder Z_]

All hail the Queen of the North!

 

Jon was such a mook for turning down the title Stannis offered him for his support, Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North, offered to a Bastard, High born or no and he turns it down because he thinks HE should be king.

 

Idiot is going to end up like all of those "Dragon" Rulers

 

Dead in the ground.

[GVulture]

Jon was such a mook for turning down the title Stannis offered him for his support, Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North, offered to a Bastard, High born or no and he turns it down because he thinks HE should be king.

 

Idiot is going to end up like all of those "Dragon" Rulers

 

Dead in the ground.

I took it up as more he didn't want to betray his oath to the Brotherhood, but it has been a while since I read Dance with Dragons.

[Ryzaki]

True, but it passes mighty close, especially if you're romancing her. =\

 

What exactly gave you that impression? Quotes preferably.

 

Because honestly to me it lost that when the loudest person against Merrill doing what she does is the leader of her clan.

[dragonflight288]

Technically, Hawke didn't have the right to receive the tool, since Merrill specifically asked for it. Marethari's disregard isn't really new, given how she kept the clan at Sundermount years longer than she was supposed to, and she freed Audacity...

 

Not to mention Merethari promised to give it too Merrill in exchange for slaying the Varterral. After it's slain, she proceeds to give it to Hawke and asks him NOT to give it to Merrill.

 

Merethari is not a woman of her word, not even when enacting a Dalish rite. 

[GVulture]

What exactly gave you that impression? Quotes preferably.

 

Because honestly to me it lost that when the loudest person against Merrill doing what she does is the leader of her clan.

Not so much quotes as it is that most of it SHOULD be between Merrill and her clan and the narrative keeps putting Hawke in the position of being in control of everything, when he shouldn't be. It's not like the rest of the game where Hawke has a personal stake in the outcome either because of their family or because they were put in charge by the Viscount, Meredith, or Orsino BECAUSE of Hawke's ties around the city.

 

What possible business could Hawke have with the clan once their debt to Flemeth is paid? Taking Merrill into the city in exchange for the Keeper's help fulfilling their promise to Flemeth should've been the end to it. The narrative keeps putting Hawke in this position of power over the Dalish and there shouldn't be. Other than using Hawke to circumvent her obligations to Merrill... that is all Hawke is. Hawke shouldn't be allowed to make these decisions for Merrill.

[Ryzaki]

Not so much quotes as it is that most of it SHOULD be between Merrill and her clan and the narrative keeps putting Hawke in the position of being in control of everything, when he shouldn't be. It's not like the rest of the game where Hawke has a personal stake in the outcome either because of their family or because they were put in charge by the Viscount, Meredith, or Orsino BECAUSE of Hawke's ties around the city.

 

What possible business could Hawke have with the clan once their debt to Flemeth is paid? Taking Merrill into the city in exchange for the Keeper's help fulfilling their promise to Flemeth should've been the end to it.

 

? Merrill's the one who keeps asking Hawke to take her. Merrill asks Hawke go with her to talk to Marethari. (And I have aggressive Hawke in true tsun tsun fashion refuse and then then go with her anyway). Merrill asks Hawke to go with her with Audacity. Merrill states if she goes to the keeper alone it'll just devolve into arguments. That's why she asks Hawke to mediate.

 

Hawke is doing Merrill's quests as favors to Merrill. Same as any other companion.

[GVulture]

? Merrill's the one who keeps asking Hawke to take her. Merrill asks Hawke go with her to talk to Marethari. (And I have aggressive Hawke in true tsun tsun fashion refuse and then then go with her anyway). Merrill asks Hawke to go with her with Audacity. Merrill states if she goes to the keeper alone it'll just devolve into arguments. That's why she asks Hawke to mediate.

 

Hawke is doing Merrill's quests as favors to Merrill. Same as any other companion.

But the conclusions of all these personal favors ends in Hawke making the decision to ALLOW Merrill to do something. Which is problematic, I think.

[Ryzaki]

Ah missed your edit. In regards to this

 

Hawke shouldn't be allowed to make these decisions for Merrill.

 

Marethari gives him the knife. Hawke decides to let Merrill decide for herself (give her the knife) or not (keep the knife). Marethari is the one who allowed Hawke to make the decision. If you don't want Hawke making her decisions...give her the knife.

[dragonflight288]

Ah missed your edit. In regards to this

 

 

 

 

Marethari gives him the knife. Hawke decides to let Merrill decide for herself (give her the knife) or not (keep the knife). Marethari is the one who allowed Hawke to make the decision. If you don't want Hawke making her decisions...give her the knife.

 

Or, you know, expect Merethari to keep her word when she promised to give it to Merrill in exchange for a service. 

[Ryzaki]

But the conclusions of all these personal favors ends in Hawke making the decision to ALLOW Merrill to do something. Which is problematic, I think.

 

?

 

It's only one time. Marethari's knife. Act 3 has Merill make her own choices with Hawke either warning her about what Marethari said before ("She said it wouldn't die until she did") or not.

 

You know what other companions Hawke can make decisions for?

 

Anders - killing Elsa

Fenris - killing his sister

Varric - killing Betrand

Isabela - killing Castillon

 

Merrill isn't unique in this.

 

It's not unique to DA2 either the Warden can "harden" Alistair/Leliana and push them into doing things. It's part of being a BW protagonist.

 

Or, you know, expect Merethari to keep her word when she promised to give it to Merrill in exchange for a service. 

 

Fair enough but she clearly didn't thus if your Hawke is bothered about that just give Merrill the knife.

[Master Warder Z_]

Or, you know, expect Merethari to keep her word when she promised to give it to Merrill in exchange for a service. 

 

Or you know, entrusting it to Hawke because he's the PC.

 

Or is he just the guy who did the heavy lifting here, carried that bumbling elf across the county and fought a stupid looking spider in a cave for what...a lark? He earned the knife and the right to do with it what he wished as much as Merril if not more so.

[GVulture]

?

 

It's only one time. Marethari's knife. Act 3 has Merill make her own choices with Hawke either warning her about what Marethari said before ("She said it wouldn't die until she did") or not.

 

You know what other companions Hawke can make decisions for?

 

Anders - killing Elsa

Fenris - killing his sister

Varric - killing Betrand

Isabela - killing Castillon

 

Merrill isn't unique in this.

 

It's not unique to DA2 either the Warden can "harden" Alistair/Leliana and push them into doing things. It's part of being a BW protagonist.

 

 

Fair enough but she clearly didn't thus if your Hawke is bothered about that just give Merrill the knife.

The rest of these are written in a way that Hawke talks them into or out of a certain course of action. Hawke wasn't crossing arms and saying, "DON'T!" to them (with the exception of Vengeance going murder rage kill kill... hard to write that one differently) I get that it is an issue with the game mechanics.  My issue is how hers were written... if that makes sense?