1305 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

 

 

Fair enough but she clearly didn't thus if your Hawke is bothered about that just give Merrill the knife.

 

Fair enough, 

 

Personally, I see it that if you're going to give your word to someone, the worth of the person can be measured by their willingness to keep their word. Merethari went out of her way to avoid keeping it by giving it to Hawke and not Merrill. Yes, our Hawke, based on how we roleplay, can give Merrill the Arlun'holn (I think that's what it is) or not, but what our Hawke does does nothing to change what I clearly saw. Merethari gave her word, then tried to back out of it after Merrill kept hers. 

[Ryzaki]

The rest of these are written in a way that Hawke talks them into or out of a certain course of action. Hawke wasn't crossing arms and saying, "DON'T!" to them. That is my issue... if that makes sense?

 

I still don't see mighty whitey in that. Also Hawke does explain his reasoning. Unlike the other companions however Merrill doesn't go along with his point of view. They argue he pretty much goes "welp I'm not giving it to you so there."  (Not the most mature course of action but they're both being stubborn mules in that scenario which is why I love it so).

 

Fair enough, 

 

Personally, I see it that if you're going to give your word to someone, the worth of the person can be measured by their willingness to keep their word. Merethari went out of her way to avoid keeping it by giving it to Hawke and not Merrill. Yes, our Hawke, based on how we roleplay, can give Merrill the Arlun'holn (I think that's what it is) or not, but what our Hawke does does nothing to change what I clearly saw. Merethari gave her word, then tried to back out of it after Merrill kept hers. 

 

True but I saw that as her trying to protect Merrill. Misguided as it may have been. And it made her a not so good keeper. She placed Merrill before her clan.

[BlueMagitek]

Or, you know, expect Merethari to keep her word when she promised to give it to Merrill in exchange for a service. 

 

It's almost like the Dalish system relying on a Keeper is, like, awful and stuff when your views conflict with the Keeper's.

 

Fancy that.

[GVulture]

I still don't see mighty whitey in that. Also Hawke does explain his reasoning. Unlike the other companions however Merrill doesn't go along with his point of view.

There are hints of it and it's not so much in how Hawke or Merrill behave but rather how the themes are potentially problematic. Hawke shouldn't be in the middle of ANY of Merrill's swabbles with her clan, but that is how the narrative took it.

[Ryzaki]

There are hints of it and it's not so much in how Hawke or Merrill behave but rather how the themes are potentially problematic. Hawke shouldn't be in the middle of ANY of Merrill's swabbles with her clan, but that is how the narrative took it.

 

That's...part of playing a BW protagonist. The PC is almost always in business that should've been done personally by the companions. (SWTOR had a nice twist where companions did personal missions well...personally and even then they sometimes dragged you along and you got to make decisions for them). PC can do this regardless or race and species...

 

I mean the PC should've let Leliana decide whether Marjoline dies or not...instead he/she pretty much makes the decision for Leliana who goes along with it.

 

Same with Alistair being king. PC makes the choice he goes along with it.

 

ME? You can make some really ridiculous choices and everyone goes along with it. You might lose their loyalty (Tali's trial) but she doesn't do anything to stop you.

 

Legion? He asks you to decide the fate of the heretics.

 

Mordin asks you what to do with the genophage data...

 

Paragoning or renegading Jack (with it's creepy might as well have Darth Vader music playing in the background for the renegade choice)

 

If you see that as mighty whitey I don't see how you don't have problems with 90% of BW's protags...

[GVulture]

That's...part of playing a BW protagonist. The PC is almost always in business that should've been done personally by the companions. (SWTOR had a nice twist where companions did personal missions well...personally and even then they sometimes dragged you along and you got to make decisions for them). PC can do this regardless or race and species...

I get that. Gameplay mechanics and all. I just don't like how it is written in Merrill's case because of the fact that other than Merrill, Hawke has no stake in the Dalish and therefore, shouldn't be in a position to making any of those calls. Now, if Hawke was elvish... or had any other elvish ties other than Merrill... Hawke has no place dictating anything to Merrill about her culture or her clan. But that was the problem with having a protagonist with such a strictly written back story. At least, the Warden had the whole Grey Warden/Blight thing.

[BlueMagitek]

I get that. Gameplay mechanics and all. I just don't like how it is written in Merrill's case because of the fact that other than Merrill, Hawke has no stake in the Dalish and therefore, shouldn't be in a position to making any of those calls. Now, if Hawke was elvish... or had any other elvish ties other than Merrill... Hawke has no place dictating anything to Merrill about her culture or her clan. But that was the problem with having a protagonist with such a strictly written back story. At least, the Warden had the whole Grey Warden/Blight thing.

 

"I'd like you to not do your ancient magic experiments in the middle of a very populated city crawling with Templar and insane blood mages"

 

"CHECK YO PRIVILEGE"

 

Edit: Added "populated"

[Ryzaki]

I get that. Gameplay mechanics and all. I just don't like how it is written in Merrill's case because of the fact that other than Merrill, Hawke has no stake in the Dalish and therefore, shouldn't be in a position to making any of those calls. Now, if Hawke was elvish... or had any other elvish ties other than Merrill... Hawke has no place dictating anything to Merrill about her culture or her clan. But that was the problem with having a protagonist with such a strictly written back story. At least, the Warden had the whole Grey Warden/Blight thing.

 

Eh the warden/blight thing doesn't explain why the Warden is making a judgement call on Leliana killing Marjoline. Also the warden bit means he/she shouldn't even have the choice to put Alistair forward as king cause that's not what wardens do. The PC is pretty regularly making choices outside his/her business.

 

Hawke doesn't dictate to Merrill about her culture or clan. What choices did you see where Hawke did that? I see a lot of Hawke arguing with Merrill about bloodmagic and him not seeing the Eluvian as safe and her obsession with the mirror. But that's not him dictating her culture or her clan.

 

Actually the most elven references you get in the game are in her friendshipmance.

[GVulture]

"I'd like you to not do your ancient magic experiments in the middle of a very city crawling with Templar and insane blood mages"

 

"CHECK YO PRIVILEGE"

LOL. Well, that would've been nice, but I don't think you could call her on that, could you?

[BlueMagitek]

LOL. Well, that would've been nice, but I don't think you could call her on that, could you?

Assuming that Hawke is an Andrastian, it shouldn't be that difficult to not want the obsessed blood mage doing blood mage things on ancient heretical artifacts.

[Dean_the_Young]

You know, my favorite part of the 'don't give the tool to Merrill' scene is the point at which she throws a racial slur at you. When was the last time a Bioware companion (of the non-evil sort) threw racial slurs?

 

I'll admit, it made me wish they dwelt a bit more on the interspecies aspect of the relationship: maybe some of the Dalish condemning Merrill as a race-traitor of sorts for sleeping with a human, while letting Hawke get some grief from the Kirkwall nobility.

[Ryzaki]

Oooh I see the quote Is it the "I don't know what the knife (I refuse to type out that word) can do but I know you can't be responsible for it?"

 

Yeah Hawke's being a patronizing asshat with that line. I don't see it as mighty whitey or humans are better trope though Hawke's just being a jerk. As aggressive Hawke is usually being. That's...not being a know it all about her culture. That's just calling her incompetent.

[BlueMagitek]

You know, my favorite part of the 'don't give the tool to Merrill' scene is the point at which she throws a racial slur at you. When was the last time a Bioware companion (of the non-evil sort) threw racial slurs?

 

I'll admit, it made me wish they dwelt a bit more on the interspecies aspect of the relationship: maybe some of the Dalish condemning Merrill as a race-traitor of sorts for sleeping with a human, while letting Hawke get some grief from the Kirkwall nobility.

 

Didn't Juhani start cursing out that bounty hunter who killed her family?  It's been so long I can't remember.

 

Aside from that, you kind of have Ashley and Kaidan, depending if you renegade Kaiden up.

[Ryzaki]

Didn't Juhani start cursing out that bounty hunter who killed her family?  It's been so long I can't remember.

 

Aside from that, you kind of have Ashley and Kaidan, depending if you renegade Kaiden up.

 

Renegade Kaidan is just so damn weird. I had to laugh at him.

 

(also continuing on the rivalrymance with merrill note)

 

Spoiler

And the next conversation is "Have you come here to lecture me again?" "Do you need me to remind you that the mirror is dangerous?" "It's not dangerous and if you refuse to believe me I'm wasting my breathe. I have taken every possible precaution (outside not building it in a crowded alienage but for some reason we can't bring that up) I'm trying to save my people why can't you understand that." "You're not saving anyone you're putting everyone around you in jeopardy." "Have you any proof of that? *yadda yadda and she boots his ass out LOL* I have to do this again from the beginning. This is a really old save... Also LOL at "This mirror may have killed someone and you brought it here?!?" You can so see the metal gear exclamation mark over Hawke's head. Also the aggressive "Someone has to be there when this all falls apart." line wouldn't be so bad if the damn paraphrase wasn't You need me. Almost as bad as Shep's you want this line to Miranda.

 

And yet despite the jerk lines as I remembered she is not cowed whatsoever. Hawke being a rude asshat? She yells at him.

[Master Warder Z_]

Also LOL at "This mirror may have killed someone and you brought it here?!?" You can so see the metal gear exclamation mark over Hawke's head.

 

[Ryzaki]

*snip*

 

What's that from?

[Master Warder Z_]

What's that from?

 

I'll pm you about it, i don't want a thread derail when its already been derailed due to the Merril argument.

[Ryzaki]

XD fair enough. oh yeah...I forgot Merrill was completely OT.
 

D:

 

Uh...yeah moderates mages...

 

Finn counts no?

[BlueMagitek]

Not just mages, any character. ~_^

 

I think the current Divine would count.  Justinia, right?

[GVulture]

XD fair enough. oh yeah...I forgot Merrill was completely OT.
 

D:

 

Uh...yeah moderates mages...

 

Finn counts no?

What about Jowan? After his initial outburst he seemed like he wanted to make amends and go back to the Circle... or do you think it was more of him accepting the Circle as a punishment? I REALLY wish there had been a slide about him in the endings.

[Master Warder Z_]

What about Jowan? After his initial outburst he seemed like he wanted to make amends and go back to the Circle... or do you think it was more of him accepting the Circle as a punishment? I REALLY wish there had been a slide about him in the endings.

 

I don't think you can construe that lying, hypocritical assassin of a blood mage to be "moderate".

 

He was supposedly willing to give up his magic, But then again he supposedly also wasn't a blood mage, its hard to separate the lies from the truth when it comes to Jowan.

[GVulture]

I don't think you can construe that lying, hypocritical assassin of a blood mage to be "moderate".

 

He was supposedly willing to give up his magic, But then again he supposedly also wasn't a blood mage, its hard to separate the lies from the truth when it comes to Jowan.

He seemed contrite during the Redcliffe quest for me. And very... resigned and unhappy about his actions. I always let him redeem himself during the Fade sequence with Connor. Even if it means I have to runscript killallhostiles because he is WORTHLESS in the Fade.

[Ryzaki]

Not just mages, any character. ~_^

 

I think the current Divine would count.  Justinia, right?

 

Ah yes.

 

What about Jowan? After his initial outburst he seemed like he wanted to make amends and go back to the Circle... or do you think it was more of him accepting the Circle as a punishment? I REALLY wish there had been a slide about him in the endings.

 

I think he was pretty resigned to them killing/tranquilizing him so it probably was acceptance of his punishment.

 

Nah it probably would've been as off as Cullen going on a mage killing spree. Did BW ever fix that random encounter glitch where finding him saving those people from darkspawn wasn't triggering? (Jowan I mean not Cullen).

[Master Warder Z_]

He seemed contrite during the Redcliffe quest for me. And very... resigned and unhappy about his actions. I always let him redeem himself during the Fade sequence with Connor. Even if it means I have to runscript killallhostiles because he is WORTHLESS in the Fade.

 

He seemed contrite because he was caught, he lost his supposed love interest and basically resigned himself to die.

 

  He was contrite because he lost, not because he felt overly bad nor guilty.

[Master Warder Z_]

Did BW ever fix that random encounter glitch where finding him saving those people from darkspawn wasn't triggering? (Jowan I mean not Cullen).

 

Not that i recall, last time i played ultimate edition it was still there.