1305 réponses à ce sujet

[cjones91]

Jowan probably acquired the book at some point after escaping the Circle.

[LobselVith8]

That's not the human knows better trope. Like...at all. The human knows better trope would have Hawke somehow know more about the Eluvian than anyone else does and have the elves pro the eluvian and human Hawke proves everyone wrong and himself right. The whole point of the trope is the human know better than the other species. Having one human and multiple (insert other species here) against it is not that trope. Hell the only one we know pro the Eluvian is Merrill.

The trope of the human telling the non-human that she's wrong about a particular aspect of her culture that he knows nothing about was my point. Of the two, Merrill is the only one who has performed a vast amount of research into the technology. Having Hawke as the arbitrator of what Merrill should do about the pursuit of a foreign technology he knows almost nothing about follows those guidelines to me.

It's not even a human version of the Can't Argue With Elves trope.

I didn't even name the trope to begin with; I addressed how it came across to me. In fact, my initial post today wasn't even directed at you.

The second Merill's clan was against it along with Marethari and Fenris any chance of it being a human knows better trope went screaming down Sundermount.

Marethari's clan is against it because she's against it, and she claimed the stint would be brought back. Despite not having done any research on the subject, and thinking any effort to understand the Eluvian should cease because she thinks their ancestors would have wanted this technology buried with them, despite knowing nothing about them in the Dalish Origin.

[GVulture]

Where did Jowan even get that book to leave out? He didn't exactly seem to be carrying much more then the clothes on his back when he ran.

He never says, but he (or was it Connor?) says that Connor read from one of Jowan's books about talking to the demon.

 

 

 

((sorry if this looks weird, I can't get this to format properly, my responses are bolded.))

 

Considering she built an Eluvian and could feel the power remaining to be tapped into, I'd give her a bit of credit for her efforts.
 

 

Not denying her efforts, just saying that WoG makes a point to limit the range of her expertise to Kirkwall.

You mean Merrill addresses her own limitations? That's not surprising, since age isn't infallible. She's pooling together the lore she's gathered and direct information from the shard she took; it's not like she knows the result beyond a shadow of a doubt.

From what she's obtained, she believes thus technology can greatly benefit the People, but she's being honest about the fact that she could be wrong.

No, I disagree with you about Merrill's attempts to help her people with this elven technology; that's completely different than thinking she's without flaws.

 

I haven't said that her fixing the Eluvian wouldn't help her people, I just questioned her wisdom about her methods. She is very, "ends justify the means" and unfortunately... her ends are admirable, but her means are not taking into consideration the possibility she might bring harm to herself and others. Again, I only thought that way because you are very... stalwart in your defense of her, which I understand. The way you were forming your responses made it seem like you didn't agree with ANYTHING when I pointed out a short coming in her reasoning or logic. Mayhaps, we were both a bit defensive about our positions and it caused some misunderstanding about the tones in our responses?

 

[GVulture]

Marethari's clan is against it because she's against it, and she claimed the stint would be brought back. Despite not having done any research on the subject, and thinking any effort to understand the Eluvian should cease because she thinks their ancestors would have wanted this technology buried with them, despite knowing nothing about them in the Dalish Origin.

In defense of Marethari, do you think that she wouldn't have studied a bit about the eluvian when Merrill first sought her help or does Marethari read as, "Unknown = bad and scary!" Or do you think that Marethari shut down on Merrill when she turned to blood magic? I know WoG says Merrill knows the most, but do you think Marethari was completely ignorant? Or just terrified of losing another to the eluvian the way they lost Tamlen and the Warden?

 

(genuinely curious as to your read on her, not being antagonistic)

[LobselVith8]

**eye roll** The Keeper is trying to help you Merrill is before Act III, when the Keeper refuses her the knife, actually. So... your logic is not valid here.

My point is that Marethari does something incredibly asinine on the premise that she's right and Merrill's wrong. Her pride can lead to the demise of the Sabrae clan because of how she went about everything.

Marethari defied a Dalish custom by refusing to hand over the Arulin'Holm, despite the fulfillment of the task that was set forth, and then she released Audacity because she thought the restored Eluvian could have been used as a means to escape it's prison.

The Keeper even made it clear she told everyone in the clan Merrill would bring back the taint, which lead to Pol's death, and then tried to use that to coerce Merrill to give up and return to the clan.

No one is arguing that Hawke shouldn't have gotten the tool. That was completely Marethari being passive aggressive about the damn thing and I really hate that she does that. I wish there was an option to refuse it and then force Marethari to refuse Merrill, but considering that Hawke is railroaded into taking it... that's a problem with the narrative.

Technically, Marethari couldn't refuse it, so she gave it to Hawke instead since he isn't bound by Dalish customs, since Merrill had fulfilled the terms that were agreed on.

[GVulture]

My point is that Marethari does something incredibly asinine on the premise that she's right and Merrill's wrong. Her pride can lead to the demise of the Sabrae clan because of how she went about everything.

Marethari defied a Dalish custom by refusing to hand over the Arulin'Holm, despite the fulfillment of the task that was set forth, and then she released Audacity because she thought the restored Eluvian could have been used as a means to escape it's prison.

The Keeper even made it clear she told everyone in the clan Merrill would bring back the taint, which lead to Pol's death, and then tried to use that to coerce Merrill to give up and return to the clan.


Technically, Marethari couldn't refuse it, so she gave it to Hawke instead since he isn't bound by Dalish customs, since Merrill had fulfilled the terms that were agreed on.

Not arguing any of that. I kinda wanted to smack Marethari upside the head for all that. It's kinda why I headcanoned the whole Audacity influencing the clan thing. I liked it better than Marethari being the Queen of passive aggressive guilt trips. Which again, with the thinness of the Veil and Flemeth ordering the Sabrae clan to hang around... it isn't TOO far fetched that his influence could've reached the Dalish despite being trapped. Especially when Merrill was doing her weird blood magic communion thing when you first meet her on the trail to Sundermont. One would hope that Audacity was the only spirit Merrill was risking contact with.

[LobselVith8]

How exactly? Pretty much everyone that's not Merrill is against what she's doing. Mighty Whitey has it so the white person knows better than everyone else. Merrill's the only one in her corner. Hawke isn't judging what's best for the elven culture he/she is concerned about his/her culture and Merrill's safety. So...I'm not sure how you're comparing it to it. Hawke doesn't once say that her trying to research elven history is bad. It's her methods and how it's ended obsessive, lost her clan and lead her to bloodmagic that's the issue.

The clan is against it because Marethari is, and she told them Merrill would bring back the taint. If Marethari supported what Merrill was doing, I doubt they would have been opposed to it.

Another issue with that is Merrill takes her mirror away from her people and into human lands to do her research. If merrill was doing this somewhere isolated or in dalish lands my Hawke wouldn't have cared. She's not. Her clan made her take her research elsewhere in case it backfired and she decides to take it into a place where she fully admits to not having spared a real glance for the people right outside her door.

Merrill has gotten to know the elves of the Alienage, and established friendships with them. She's even named them in dialogue, and reassures Nyssa about Hawke's intentions in Act III.

If anyone's trying to be mighty whitey in that scenario it's Merill.

Hawke isn't saying "Don't try to help your people!" but "Are these really the best methods? You've lost your clan over this you're using bloodmagic...over something you're not even sure how it works."

I don't agree with the vilification of blood magic in general. And I'll put the potential benefit of the Eluvian for all the Elvhen over Marethari's disagreement with Merrill.

In Fenris words "You had a life, you had a family and you gave it up to chase after ghosts."


XD


Oh fine then

Technology that, if successfully harnessed, could provide food to starving elves, help relocate people, warn populations about impending dangers, and communicate over vast distances.

Hardly ghosts...

[LobselVith8]

In defense of Marethari, do you think that she wouldn't have studied a bit about the eluvian when Merrill first sought her help or does Marethari read as, "Unknown = bad and scary!" Or do you think that Marethari shut down on Merrill when she turned to blood magic? I know WoG says Merrill knows the most, but do you think Marethari was completely ignorant? Or just terrified of losing another to the eluvian the way they lost Tamlen and the Warden?

(genuinely curious as to your read on her, not being antagonistic)

Given Marethari's line about how she thought that the Eluvians should stay buried, I don't think she studied the artifacts or their potential. I think she was quite competent (given how she helped Feynriel as much as she could), but her actions in Act III came across as pride to me. If Merrill's story about Marethari and the sylvan was serious (and not just dry humor), I can see why.

She stayed at Sundermount years longer than she should have, she didn't warn the clan that she was going to let Audacity loose, and then she told Merrill when it was too late. While I think Marethari immensely loved Merrill (as though she was her own daughter, in fact) it may have clouded her judgement.

I'm not saying Merrill would have succeeded or even that she went about everything the right way. I simply respect her proactivity about the plight her people faced, and I felt it was reasonable to think that the technology could be of benefit to the People as a whole.

As for your prior post, perhaps there were some misunderstandings about tone. I'm a bit used to seeing people disregard Merrill entirely, and I don't find it to be an accurate assessment of the character. Smart, flawed, proactive. Also one of the few good blood mages in a sea of insane, stupid mage antagonists.

[Ryzaki]

@Lob: Whether your inital post was to me or not you still responded to me after I quoted you so...public forum and all that. And it's still fails to be a human knows better trope.  And for the last time Merrill knows little about the technology as well. It's not like she's perfectly capable of using the thing and Hawke's telling her she's wrong. It's abundantly clear she doesn't know how it works. As for saying Marethari did no research on the subject how exactly do you know that? WoG again? Merrill knowing more than everyone else =/= everyone else knowing nothing.

 

You really don't think the clan would've been against Merrill rebuilding a mirror that they saw bring the taint? Really? They're mindless automotons that just do what the Keeper says is right? Now they might not have shoved her out the clan but you really think they'd been all "that's great merrill! Yay!" Come on now.

 

Then why does she say in the final conversation she hardly spared a glance at the elves in the alienage? (Then again it could be one of those many bits of DA2 bits where one hand didn't watch the other).

 

She didn't know it did all that Lob. Not to mention that depends on it being successful. Merill can't even get the mirror to work without having to run to Audacity for help (and that introduces a other heap of problems). Morrigan a witch far better trained, competent and older could only get hers to work once and somehow Merrill's supposed to magically get hers to work perfectly? Don't make me laugh.

[GVulture]

Given Marethari's line about how she thought that the Eluvians should stay buried, I don't think she studied the artifacts or their potential. I think she was quite competent (given how she helped Feynriel as much as she could), but her actions in Act III came across as pride to me. If Merrill's story about Marethari and the sylvan was serious (and not just dry humor), I can see why.

She stayed at Sundermount years longer than she should have, she didn't warn the clan that she was going to let Audacity loose, and then she told Merrill when it was too late. While I think Marethari immensely loved Merrill (as though she was her own daughter, in fact) it may have clouded her judgement.

I'm not saying Merrill would have succeeded or even that she went about everything the right way. I simply respect her proactivity about the plight her people faced, and I felt it was reasonable to think that the technology could be of benefit to the People as a whole.

As for your prior post, perhaps there were some misunderstandings about tone. I'm a bit used to seeing people disregard Merrill entirely, and I don't find it to be an accurate assessment of the character. Smart, flawed, proactive. Also one of the few good blood mages in a sea of insane, stupid mage antagonists.

Agreed on all of this. While I don't condemn her use of blood magic, I do think that maybe Merrill wasn't quite cautious enough when it came to dealing with the potential dangers of her use of it. Or the dangers of trusting a demon when it said that her ritual would make the mirror safe. I certainly don't view her as a stupid blood mage or as an antagonist. A little slow to admit her own failings, (most of that can be attributed to her having to be that way because no one else believed in her) but certainly not stupid.

 

Most of my previous points were more about pointing out the potential of her overestimating her own abilities, not me saying that I thought she was incapable or unable to do the things she set out to do. Like her demon test. =p

[Ryzaki]

Agreed on all of this. While I don't condemn her use of blood magic, I do think that maybe Merrill wasn't quite cautious enough when it came to dealing with the potential dangers of her use of it. Or the dangers of trusting a demon when it said that her ritual would make the mirror safe. I certainly don't view her as a stupid blood mage or as an antagonist. A little slow to admit her own failings, (most of that can be attributed to her having to be that way because no one else believed in her) but certainly not stupid.

 

Most of my previous points were more about pointing out the potential of her overestimating her own abilities, not me saying that I thought she was incapable or unable to do the things she set out to do. Like her demon test. =p

 

Oh man the demon test. I can just see the incredulous "are you kidding me?" look on his face. Well at least when she drags him up sundermount in act 3 they already know he's capable of taking her out if she gets under a demon's thrall XD

 

Though to be fair everyone has chronic backstabbing disorder in the fade. Still sheesh it really was a Hawke being the only sane man moment.

[GVulture]

Oh man the demon test. I can just see the incredulous "are you kidding me?" look on his face. Well at least when she drags him up sundermount in act 3 they already know he's capable of taking her out if she gets under a demon's thrall XD

 

Though to be fair everyone has chronic backstabbing disorder in the fade. Still sheesh it really was a Hawke being the only sane man moment.

I actually meant her test for detecting demons she uses on Kerran? in Enemies Among Us. It was a rather long discussion where I was basically just saying the test can't be proven a tried and true test until she actually catches a demon with it. =)

[Ryzaki]

I actually meant her test for detecting demons she uses on Kerran? in Enemies Among Us. It was a rather long discussion where I was basically just saying the test can't be proven a tried and true test until she actually catches a demon with it. =)

 

Ooooh. XD fair enough. I thought you were talking about Feyn's quest.

[dragonflight288]

A more competent apostate surely wouldn't have left demon summoning books out for Connor to read.

 

Jowan didn't either. He kept them away from Connor. However, Connor snuck in and got them after he had been arrested and was being tortured. There was nothing he could've done to keep Connor away from his books at that time. 

[GVulture]

Jowan didn't either. He kept them away from Connor. However, Connor snuck in and got them after he had been arrested and was being tortured. There was nothing he could've done to keep Connor away from his books at that time. 

Maybe I should've said, a more competent apostate would not have brought books like that to begin with. Nothing says, super secret spy apostate like a BOOK ON DEMON SUMMONING. =p

[Mockingword]

Jowan didn't either. He kept them away from Connor. However, Connor snuck in and got them after he had been arrested and was being tortured. There was nothing he could've done to keep Connor away from his books at that time. 

Proving, once again, that the real threat is children.

[dragonflight288]

Maybe I should've said, a more competent apostate would not have brought books like that to begin with. Nothing says, super secret spy apostate like a BOOK ON DEMON SUMMONING. =p

 

*shrug* To be perfectly fair, Connor never actually says that's what the books were about. He simply says that Jowan gave him strict instructions never to go through them. And after he went through them to find something to help his father, the demon came to him in his dreams. 

 

They could be books on demon summoning, or they may simply be books on blood magic and Jowan was covering his butt, and the demon simply recognized Connor's desperation and reached out to him in the Fade.

 

I can't say for sure. The books may be about demon summoning, or may have been Jowan's own research material on blood magic (taken from the library around the same time Irving was advised to remove books on blood magic.)

 

 

Proving, once again, that the real threat is children.

 

The Codex Hierarchy of the Circle is actually written by a Knight-Commander who says the same thing. Untrained children or overconfident apprentices who dabble in things they aren't prepared for are the highest sources of injuries or disasters. 

[Ryzaki]

Aww all that makes me wish for a mage Hawke at least finding Leandra's corpse had a pride/desire demon try to tempt you with the lie that they could revive her. It wouldn't need to boil into a fight either. (Preferably it wouldn't).

[dragonflight288]

Aww all that makes me wish for a mage Hawke at least finding Leandra's corpse had a pride/desire demon try to tempt you with the lie that they could revive her. It wouldn't need to boil into a fight either. (Preferably it wouldn't).

 

That would've been a great place for a mage-oriented side-quest. Maybe the Red Irons could have a warrior oriented side quest and the smugglers a rogue one. 

 

At least that's what I thought would be cool if it happened. 

[Ryzaki]

That would've been a great place for a mage-oriented side-quest. Maybe the Red Irons could have a warrior oriented side quest and the smugglers a rogue one. 

 

At least that's what I thought would be cool if it happened. 

 

Yeah there should've been more side quests based off class.

 

And I still wish Bethany/Carver didn't vanish after act 1 outside 2 scenes and DLC >_>

[Hellion Rex]

Cullen's moderate, right? Cullen is good. Cullen is very, very good.

[Mockingword]

The Codex Hierarchy of the Circle is actually written by a Knight-Commander who says the same thing. Untrained children or overconfident apprentices who dabble in things they aren't prepared for are the highest sources of injuries or disasters. 

I was mostly thinking about their grubby hands and how they chuck tantrums at the grocery store.

[Mockingword]

Cullen's moderate, right? Cullen is good. Cullen is very, very good.

Cullen is terrible, but don't let that get in the way of you licking his abs.

 

God knows it doesn't stop the Loki fangirls.

[Hellion Rex]

Cullen is terrible, but don't let that get in the way of you licking his abs.

 

God knows it doesn't stop the Loki fangirls.

And pray tell, who do you find moderate then?

[LobselVith8]

@Lob: Whether your inital post was to me or not you still responded to me after I quoted you so...public forum and all that. And it's still fails to be a human knows better trope. And for the last time Merrill knows little about the technology as well.

Regardless of how you want to quantify the depth of her knowledge (as we have no accurate measurement), Merrill knows more about the Eluvians than anyone else in that narrative. Hawke doesn't know really anything about the Eluvians, Dalish culture, or the plight of the People.

It's not like she's perfectly capable of using the thing and Hawke's telling her she's wrong. It's abundantly clear she doesn't know how it works. As for saying Marethari did no research on the subject how exactly do you know that? WoG again? Merrill knowing more than everyone else =/= everyone else knowing nothing.

Marethari's dialogue addresses she thinks the Eluvians should stay buried. She gives no indication of performing any research about them. The Keeper goes from one assumption to the next, ultimately culminating in the release of Audacity.

You really don't think the clan would've been against Merrill rebuilding a mirror that they saw bring the taint? Really? They're mindless automotons that just do what the Keeper says is right? Now they might not have shoved her out the clan but you really think they'd been all "that's great merrill! Yay!" Come on now.

Considering what ensues if Hawke doesn't coddle them about Marethari's death...

Then why does she say in the final conversation she hardly spared a glance at the elves in the alienage? (Then again it could be one of those many bits of DA2 bits where one hand didn't watch the other).

That line never meshed with how she brought up the names of people from the Alienage, like when she suggests Sebastian should name his bow Philomela, or Merrill's participation in "On the Loose".

She didn't know it did all that Lob. Not to mention that depends on it being successful. Merill can't even get the mirror to work without having to run to Audacity for help (and that introduces a other heap of problems). Morrigan a witch far better trained, competent and older could only get hers to work once and somehow Merrill's supposed to magically get hers to work perfectly? Don't make me laugh.

Morrigan used an existing Eluvian; Merrill practically built hers from scratch. We also don't know the full extent of how Merrill felt the People could have benefited from this technology, since it's only addressed that she believe this can help with the revitalization of the Elvhen from their centuries long decline.