1305 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

@Lob:

Regardless of how you want to quantify the depth of her knowledge (as we have no accurate measurement), Merrill knows more about the Eluvians than anyone else in that narrative. Hawke doesn't know really anything about the Eluvians, Dalish culture, or the plight of the People

 

Once again. Knowing more than nothing (or a little) really doesn't mean Hawke has absolute no point whatsoever. Especially when she's building this item of hers in the middle of a crowded city. This item of hers that she's not even sure of how it activates or what it will do once said activation occurs. So yeah I'm sorry but Hawke's ignorance is a far lesser offense than Merrill's. If she moved her Eluvian where it was in say the Wounded Coast then yeah I'd agree Hawke has no leg to stand on preaching at her. As it is Merrill places her convenience and her bullheaded belief that the Eluvian she knows scraps about is perfectly safe yet doesn't bother keeping it from doing as little harm as possible in case the worst should occur.

 

Also Hawke doesn't have any reason to care about the latter two. If Merrill was doing this in a dalish city then I'd understand you bringing it up. As it is...she's building something that was tainted in the middle of a crowded human city. Merrill made it Hawke's business when she brought it into Kirkwall and asked for his help in retrieving the knife to repair it.

 

So it's an assumption. Thank you for clarifying that.

 

You do realize they just lost their keeper over someone they might not have liked in the first place? Also saying he'll take responsibility is hardling "coddling".

 

That is true. I'll chalk it up to one hand not watching the other. (Then again one can stay relatively cooped up inside their house and still know their neighbor's lives/who they're with just by hearing what's going on from inside one's house).

 

We know it doesn't work regardless of friendship or rivalry so she clearly didn't have enough knowledge about it.

 

Also didn't this whole debate start because people where trying to say rivalry Merrill is browbeaten? If you played the rivalrymance you can clearly see she's not. As for that banter there's plenty to suggest it has more to do with Elsa than Friendship/rivalry. (The fact that it's after dissent and the "looking down at the blood on my hands" line which is exactly what he does in that case. The banter also seems to have the more shell shocked Anders from that scenario.)

[Mockingword]

And pray tell, who do you find moderate then?

Not guys who explicitly dehumanize the opposition?

[Hellion Rex]

Not guys who explicitly dehumanize the opposition?

Names please.

[GVulture]

Not guys who explicitly dehumanize the opposition?

Oh, you mean when that one instance where Cullen less than a year out from a traumatic experience that left them fearful of the power and danger of the opposition? Right after viewing someone that shouldn't be an abomination turn into one right before his eyes? You don't think that maybe he might've been a bit... I dunno... TRIGGERED by all that? And also forgetting at the end of his arc he says the the duty of a Templar is to protect and serve mages and not treat them all like monsters? ((ie Evangeline's line in Asunder)).

 

Whew, it must be hard in that world where no one is allowed to change and grow. Too bad Fenris, always gonna be a murdering slave. Too bad, Alistair, always gonna be a bumbling idiot that follows others. Too bad Morrigan, always gonna be the heartless shrew. Too bad Leliana, always gonna be just a crazy cake Lay Sister. Too bad Sten, you murdering jerk face that can never go home. Too bad Isabela, always gonna be out for yourself. Too bad Zevran, always gonna out to murder the Warden. Too bad Merrill, you crazy-eyed blood mage. Too bad Anders, always gonna set fire to Templars... wait... what?

 

/table flipping over mischaracterization

[AresKeith]

Oh, you mean when that one instance where Cullen less than a year out from a traumatic experience that left them fearful of the power and danger of the opposition? Right after viewing someone that shouldn't be an abomination turn into one right before his eyes? You don't think that maybe he might've been a bit... I dunno... TRIGGERED by all that? And also forgetting at the end of his arc he says the the duty of a Templar is to protect and serve mages and not treat them all like monsters? ((ie Evangeline's line in Asunder)).

 

Whew, it must be hard in that world where no one is allowed to change and grow. Too bad Fenris, always gonna be a murdering slave. Too bad, Alistair, always gonna be a bumbling idiot that follows others. Too bad Morrigan, always gonna be the heartless shrew. Too bad Leliana, always gonna be just a crazy cake Lay Sister. Too bad Sten, you murdering jerk face that can never go home. Too bad Isabela, always gonna be out for yourself. Too bad Zevran, always gonna out to murder the Warden. Too bad Merrill, you crazy-eyed blood mage. Too bad Anders, always gonna set fire to Templars... wait... what?

 

/table flipping over mischaracterization

 

Nonsense surely all Templars are cruel monsters

[Mockingword]

Names please.

Cullen says in one of your earliest interactions with him that "mages aren't humans like you and me".

 

That attitude sums up pretty much everything wrong with the Templars. The failure to recognise mages as feeling individuals that have emotional needs that need to be met, just like any human, is core to why the Circle system ultimately collapsed. It's also why Cullen blatantly ignores the abuses occuring directly under his nose. And he must be deliberately ignoring them, because Hawke can uncover hints of sexual and physical abuse on his very first visit to the Gallows courtyard. There's no way Cullen could possibly be unaware, when Tranquil are casually strolling around, announcing that they "Belong to Ser Alrik now".

 

Let's be clear here. Cullen doesn't turn against Meredith because he gives a crap about mages. He turns against her because he is uncomfortable with her demands to attack the Champion specifically.

 

None of the Templars who work against Meredith are interested in addressing the problems and abuses within the Circle system as a whole, they just want the abuse to return to a level that they were previously comfortable with.

[GVulture]

Cullen says in one of your earliest interactions with him that "mages aren't humans like you and me".

 

That attitude sums up pretty much everything wrong with the Templars. The failure to recognise mages as feeling individuals that have emotional needs that need to be met, just like any human, is core to why the Circle system ultimately collapsed. It's also why Cullen blatantly ignores the abuses occuring directly under his nose. And he must be deliberately ignoring them, because Hawke can uncover hints of sexual and physical abuse on his very first visit to the Gallows courtyard. There's no way Cullen could possibly be unaware, when Tranquil are casually strolling around, announcing that they "Belong to Ser Alrik now".

 

Let's be clear here. Cullen doesn't turn against Meredith because he gives a crap about mages. He turns against her because he is uncomfortable with her demands to attack the Champion specifically.

 

None of the Templars who work against Meredith are interested in addressing the problems and abuses within the Circle system as a whole, they just want the abuse to return to a level that they were previously comfortable with.

Soooomeone missed a bunch of conversaaaaations.

[Mockingword]

Oh, you mean when that one instance where Cullen less than a year out from a traumatic experience that left them fearful of the power and danger of the opposition? Right after viewing someone that shouldn't be an abomination turn into one right before his eyes? You don't think that maybe he might've been a bit... I dunno... TRIGGERED by all that? And also forgetting at the end of his arc he says the the duty of a Templar is to protect and serve mages and not treat them all like monsters? ((ie Evangeline's line in Asunder)).

 

Whew, it must be hard in that world where no one is allowed to change and grow. Too bad Fenris, always gonna be a murdering slave. Too bad, Alistair, always gonna be a bumbling idiot that follows others. Too bad Morrigan, always gonna be the heartless shrew. Too bad Leliana, always gonna be just a crazy cake Lay Sister. Too bad Sten, you murdering jerk face that can never go home. Too bad Isabela, always gonna be out for yourself. Too bad Zevran, always gonna out to murder the Warden. Too bad Merrill, you crazy-eyed blood mage. Too bad Anders, always gonna set fire to Templars... wait... what?

 

/table flipping over mischaracterization

Like, that's not even close to an adequate excuse?

 

Lots of people undergo extreme trauma and still manage to be completely rational people. I know people who have endured sexual and physical abuse, sometimes repeatedly. But they didn't turn into whackjobs who lashed out at anyone who even vaguely resembles their attackers.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That doesn't answer eluvianix's request for names of people you think are moderate, Mockingwood.

[Ryzaki]

*blinks*

 

So Cullen trying to spare those mages that surrendered was out of worry that Meredith was going to attack Hawke? odd that considering asking Hawke to back him up on this if anything puts Hawke in Meredith's line of fire.

 

How odd.

 

Edit: completely OT note I do adore back to back. Assassin Hawke coming into to save the day with smokebombs and assassinates is always fun.

[Hellion Rex]

Soooomeone missed a bunch of conversaaaaations.

Interesting. I have never actually seen that quote from Gaider before.

[Hellion Rex]

@Ryzaki....random.

[GVulture]

Like, that's not even close to an adequate excuse?

 

Lots of people undergo extreme trauma and still manage to be completely rational people. I know people who have endured sexual and physical abuse, sometimes repeatedly. But they didn't turn into whackjobs who lashed out at anyone who even vaguely resembles their attackers.

Like... have you been around someone who has been triggered?

Someone twisting into an abomination because a mage did it isn't someone vaguely resembling his attacker. It was SOMEONE EXACTLY LIKE HIS ATTACKER twisting someone who shouldn't have been able to turn into an abomination.

 

Also, the rational response to a mage twisting an unpossessable Templar into an abomination is, "MAKER-DAMNED MAGES!" not "oh shucks, I guess that is one more bad apple. Gee wilkers."

[GVulture]

Interesting. I have never actually seen that quote from Gaider before.

For the people that will probably not clicky the linky:
 

 

“I like Cullen. […] And there are things I think can be done with Cullen. I like the idea that he has confronted probably the worst that the mages have, he’s encountered the worst of what mages can do. Yet he hasn’t done what some Templars have done, like Meredith, or—I keep wanting to call him Knight Divine—Lord Seeker Lambert in the novel, how they have reacted is to become very anti-mage and very judgmental and to paint all the mages in the same basic plot, a few bad apples spoils the bunch. Cullen to me represents another side of Templars which is a side that we need to keep active. Not all Templars are these heartless bastards who would happily torture mages, that’s not true, there are Templars who are good people. I think Cullen is a good man who recognizes that there are dangerous in magic, dangers that have to be dealt with, but he doesn’t lack for compassion and doesn’t try to say, “Well, let’s take the hard approach and kill everybody and let the Maker sort them out.”  —David Gaider

 

[Ryzaki]

@Ryzaki....random.

 

XD I'm replaying Merrill's rivalrymance atm while posting thus why I mentioned it. Finding someone low on health + BtB + Stun Flash + Stabby Stabby is always fun.

 

Also best part. You can see the development

[LobselVith8]

Like, that's not even close to an adequate excuse?

Lots of people undergo extreme trauma and still manage to be completely rational people. I know people who have endured sexual and physical abuse, sometimes repeatedly. But they didn't turn into whackjobs who lashed out at anyone who even vaguely resembles their attackers.

I find Cullen's participation in Meredith's Right of Annulment the most problematic in viewing him as a moderate, especially given his presence when the Knight-Commander says that she's going to have the mages executed to appease a hypothetical mob.

[Mockingword]

Like... have you been around someone who has been triggered?

Someone twisting into an abomination because a mage did it isn't someone vaguely resembling his attacker. It was SOMEONE EXACTLY LIKE HIS ATTACKER twisting someone who shouldn't have been able to turn into an abomination.

 

Also, the rational response to a mage twisting an unpossessable Templar into an abomination is, "MAKER-DAMNED MAGES!" not "oh shucks, I guess that is one more bad apple. Gee wilkers."

I have been triggered, not that it's any of your business.

 

Templars are not "unpossessable", so let's dispose of that ridiculous notion. In DA:O, they fell to demon control as easily as any mage, and nobody forced the demons into their bodies.

 

But since you brought it up, Cullen is also a giant hypocrite, who has no sympathy for Keran, despite the fact that they underwent basically identical experiences. And lucky Cullen, rather than being put under extreme scrutiny, was given a transfer and a promotion.

 

If there are any moderate Templars at all, they'll be individuals like Thrask or Keran, who have either suffered or watched their loved ones suffer at the hands of Templars. They are the ones that at least have some minor understanding of both sides of the issue.

 

The act of becoming a Templar already indicates that you are willing to tear apart families, kill people for taking too long on a test and (as an added bonus), go to war with anyone the Chantry says to. The only way a Templar can be moderate is if they learn to be, after the fact of becoming a Templar.

 

And I'm not the least bit convinced that Cullen has learned any such thing.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I find Cullen's participation in Meredith's Right of Annulment the most problematic in viewing him as a moderate, especially given his presence when the Knight-Commander says that she's going to have the mages executed to appease a hypothetical mob.

Um, Cullen wasn't there with her when she said that. His first appearance in The Final Straw is after the fighting has started in the docks of the Gallows.

[Ryzaki]

Um...being a thrall is not the same as becoming an abomination.

 

Edit: For more perspective and WOG

 

    David Gaider wrote...

    Regular people can be possessed by demons, and are still dangerous, but they are not abominations. Abominations have access to a mage's full power -- even a weak mage turned into an abomination is dangerous -- while a possessed human (or possessed anything) is only as dangerous as the demon that did the possessing.

 

Source: http://social.biowar...x/4799697/?lf=8

[Nightdragon8]

And yet, she was right. Her character has nothing to do with it.

was she? do we really know? maybe the demon is asleep for a few years, I mean i haven't seen a prologe of him living the rest of his life growing old and what not.

[Mockingword]

Um...being a thrall is not the same as becoming an abomination.

Talk about hair-splitting.

 

Templars are vulnerable to Demons. If their special powers can't protect them from mere mind control, then what good are they as a ward against possession?

 

What is even the functional difference here? The demon still controls all of their victim's words and actions, just as it does for a mage.

 

Or are you saying Templars should get a pass on possession, because they don't pose as much of an individual threat?

[GVulture]

I have been triggered, not that it's any of your business.

 

Templars are not "unpossessable", so let's dispose of that ridiculous notion. In DA:O, they fell to demon control as easily as any mage, and nobody forced the demons into their bodies.

 

But since you brought it up, Cullen is also a giant hypocrite, who has no sympathy for Keran, despite the fact that they underwent basically identical experiences. And lucky Cullen, rather than being put under extreme scrutiny, was given a transfer and a promotion.

 

If there are any moderate Templars at all, they'll be individuals like Thrask or Keran, who have either suffered or watched their loved ones suffer at the hands of Templars. They are the ones that at least have some minor understanding of both sides of the issue.

 

The act of becoming a Templar already indicates that you are willing to tear apart families, kill people for taking too long on a test and (as an added bonus), go to war with anyone the Chantry says to. The only way a Templar can be moderate is if they learn to be, after the fact of becoming a Templar.

 

And I'm not the least bit convinced that Cullen has learned any such thing.

Enemies Among Us it is said in-game that Templars are not supposed to be possessed by demons. A non-mage turning into an abomination is unheard of. Full Stop.

 

So, his experience is NOT the same as Keran's. Keran was in the middle of a ritual that was meant to make him a Templar Abomination. Cullen was in danger of being turned into a thrall. Not possessed. Not nearly the same thing. Cullen also had to listen to demons and abominations torture his brothers in arms and innocent people.

 

Again, once he was out of direct danger from the demons and blood mages, Cullen was out of danger. They had no way of knowing if Keran was safe after Hawke killed what's her face because the ritual was under way and they had no way of determining if Keran was free of demonic influence. Completely and utterly not the same.

 

Again. You missed a lot if you think that Cullen at the end of DA2 was the same as he was at the beginning.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Templars have the Litany of Adralla, which fights mind control. 

[Hellion Rex]

Templars have the Litany of Andralla, which fights mind control.

Except in Ferelden, that was kept in a book that Niall had, who conveniently had been kept in thrall by a sloth demon.

Edit: I also don't think it's necessarily readily available for Templar use since we have only seen it 2x, once during an emergency Annulment and when Lord Seeker Lambert managed to produce a copy.

[GVulture]

Talk about hair-splitting.

 

Templars are vulnerable to Demons. If their special powers can't protect them from mere mind control, then what good are they as a ward against possession?

 

What is even the functional difference here? The demon still controls all of their victim's words and actions, just as it does for a mage.

 

Or are you saying Templars should get a pass on possession, because they don't pose as much of an individual threat?

Once the demon is dead, so is the thrall. End of danger. With a possessed Templar, they can turn into an abomination at any point because they are the demon. With the added bonus of running around doing demonic things and making thralls! YAY!

 

Also, please stop ignoring IN GAME lore about only mages are supposed to be possessed by demons. That is like 90% of why they bother with the Circles in the first place. If anyone could be possessed and turned abomination (without mage fueled intervention) what is the point of being afraid of them?