1305 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

Oh yeah hopefully the abominations in DAI actually feel like a threat. I don't have high hopes though. We don't have the best track record...

Though I would not be upset if I never saw that Saarebas light spell again (or if only my mage Qunari could use it. heheheh) so annoying.

Though I wonder if Varric is gonna remain "I'm sick of mages and templars" in DAI. I hope so.

Hell yes! That Sarebaas spell that knocked the entire party flat on their asses before Meredith came? That was soooooo badass. I want a spell like that lol!

[Hanako Ikezawa]

As I pointed out, Meredith never says Orsino was wrong. She even admits one person killed the Grand Cleric. The issue is Cullen knows an entire population of men, women, and children are going to be killed over one single person. It's why I can imagine some wouldn't see him as a moderate.

Uldred was a single person too. And the single person responsible for the deed just killed many innocent people in the Chantry and who knows how many more from the debris. Add to that, demons and blood mages already attacking the city, and really what choice did he have?

 

Aye. And then when she presents evidence that she isn't in her right state of mind (trying to murder innocents and turning on Hawke the Lone Sane Person), that is when he brings down the hammer on her.

Yeah, then he has the evidence to know that the rumors of her paranoia and bloodlust were true.

[GVulture]

Also, am I wrong, or doesn't Cullen imply that he realizes Hawke is a mage in Act III before all the big ta-do and basically tells them they're alright in his book? I know in Act II he talks about a Surana/Amell fondly.

[LobselVith8]

I know. Giant cluster.

More than one, though. Add in Cullen's story mandated blindness to apostate Hawke's magical abilities and his Plot instituted handwave of Hawke's warning about Anders' plot against the Chantry (when Anders is right next to Hawke), and it just gets weirder and weirder.

[Ryzaki]

Hell yes! That Sarebaas spell that knocked the entire party flat on their asses before Meredith came? That was soooooo badass. I want a spell like that lol!

 

I know D:

 

*crosses fingers that PC mage can have it in DAO*

 

If it's restricted to dalish mage I shall not be pleased >_>

[Ryzaki]

Also, am I wrong, or doesn't Cullen imply that he realizes Hawke is a mage in Act III before all the big ta-do and basically tells them they're alright in his book? I know in Act II he talks about a Surana/Amell fondly.

 

Yeah he mentions something about Hawke being a mage. Give me a sec and I'll look it up. "But surely you are the only mage in Kirkwall who can approach the Knight Commander directly if you wished."

 

Also when Hawke asks if Cullen thinks Meredith's mad

 

"I've seen madness before I saw Uldreld's eyes when there was nothing human left in them...the knight commander she is not there yet. But I don't need to ask where the rumors come from." (he looks down at the last bit).

 

And this is with a Hawke who sided completely with the mages from the beginning.

[LobselVith8]

Uldred was a single person too. And the single person responsible for the deed just killed many innocent people in the Chantry and who knows how many more from the debris. Add to that, demons and blood mages already attacking the city, and really what choice did he have?

Greagoir called the Right of Annulment because of the abomination infestation, not because of one man. Greagoir also wasn't an Archdemon short of a Blight, unlike Meredith.

[Hellion Rex]

I know D:

*crosses fingers that PC mage can have it in DAO*

If it's restricted to dalish mage I shall not be pleased >_>

You know that because you said that, now it's gonna be a Dalish spell.
And I know how you do love the Dalish so.

Edit: I hate these forums on mobile. Damn autocorrect.

[Hellion Rex]

Yeah he mentions something about Hawke being a mage. Give me a sec and I'll look it up. "But surely you are the only mage in Kirkwall who can approach the Knight Commander directly if you wished."

Also when Hawke asks if Cullen thinks Meredith's mad

"I've seen madness before I saw Uldreld's eyes when there was nothing human left in them...the knight commander she is not there yet. But I don't need to ask where the rumors come from." (he looks down at the last bit).

And this is with a Hawke who sided completely with the mages from the beginning.

Huh. I have never heard that second quote before, ever. And I have done 7 full DA2 playthroughs as a pro-mage Mage.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Greagoir called the Right of Annulment because of the abomination infestation, not because of one man. Greagoir also wasn't an Archdemon short of a Blight, unlike Meredith.

No, she just had a city experience a severe Chantry storm and now has many demons, abominations, and blood mages running around tearing what's left of the city apart. 

 

We can argue this all day, but basically Cullen had no choice in the matter. Nobody did. Just what Anders wanted.

[Ryzaki]

You know that because you said that, now it's gonna be a Dalish spell.
And I know how you do love the Dalish so.

Edit: I hate these forums on mobile. Damn autocorrect.

*cries*

 

Wait...did it make it danish? :3

 

Huh. I have never heard that second quote before, ever. And I have done 7 full DA2 playthroughs as a pro-mage Mage.

 

Just checked. It was on my uber good guy diplo mage Hawke. He recruited and friended everybody that wasn't Fenris or Merrill XD

[GVulture]

Yeah he mentions something about Hawke being a mage. Give me a sec and I'll look it up. "But surely you are the only mage in Kirkwall who can approach the Knight Commander directly if you wished."

 

Also when Hawke asks if Cullen thinks Meredith's mad

 

"I've seen madness before I saw Uldreld's eyes when there was nothing human left in them...the knight commander she is not there yet. But I don't need to ask where the rumors come from." (he looks down at the last bit).

 

And this is with a Hawke who sided completely with the mages from the beginning.

And I think in that conversation Hawke calls him an old friend? And he responds with his morose bit about questioning the Order.

FWIW, I think the only reason Cullen goes all hard nose about the Templar rule was it was his coping mechanism. He was all worried for Amell/Surana and felt that put him in danger during The Broken Circle. So he swings to the extreme side of the line to cope and near the end of Dragon Age 2 he is getting to where he is thinking about things for himself rather than hiding behind the doctrine and I, at least, got the impression that he wasn't liking what he was seeing.

[Hellion Rex]

*cries*

Wait...did it make it danish? :3
XD

No. For some reason it changed Dalish to "Dapish" whatever the hell that is.

[GVulture]

Huh. I have never heard that second quote before, ever. And I have done 7 full DA2 playthroughs as a pro-mage Mage.

 

((This person seems to be playing an Aggressive Warrior Hawke. I don't think he had that line about DIVINE RIGHT in my Pro-Templar Mage Sassy Hawke game. Nor do I recall him being that bitter sounding at first))

[Ryzaki]

Linky because I don't know how to embed!

 

Just use [Flash*] *insert link here* [/flash*] remove the stars obviously XD

 

And I think in that conversation Hawke calls him an old friend? And he responds with his morose bit about questioning the Order.

FWIW, I think the only reason Cullen goes all hard nose about the Templar rule was it was his coping mechanism. He was all worried for Amell/Surana and felt that put him in danger during The Broken Circle. So he swings to the extreme side of the line to cope and near the end of Dragon Age 2 he is getting to where he is thinking about things for himself rather than hiding behind the doctrine and I, at least, got the impression that he wasn't liking what he was seeing.

 

Yeah. It's one of the first convos you can have with him in act 3.

 

Makes sense to me.

 

No. For some reason it changed Dalish to "Dapish" whatever the hell that is.

 

XD

[Hellion Rex]

Linky because I don't know how to embed!

((This person seems to be playing an Aggressive Warrior Hawke. I don't think he had that line about DIVINE RIGHT in my Pro-Templar Mage Sassy Hawke game. Nor do I recall him being that bitter sounding at first))

Thanks you. And to embed, use "https" instead of just "http". Usually works for me.

[GVulture]

Just use [Flash*] *insert link here* [/flash*] remove the stars obviously XD

 

HUZZAH! Edited for greatness.

[nightscrawl]

So, my question is, what do you think it means for a character to be a "moderate" on the templar/mage situation? What exactly is the moderate position, or are there multiple moderate positions?

 

Everyone, no matter their cause, is driven by their own motivations and biases. These may be biases from personal experience (being a victim, or seeing others be a victim -- there are pro- and anti-mage examples of this), or learned biases like Chantry doctrine.

A true moderate is someone that can look beyond their own biases -- or one who attempts to do so -- to see that both sides have legitimate concerns, and that a solution can and should be found that can provide for the safety and freedom of everyone, mage and mundane alike.

 

I've spoken before on the BSN and elsewhere about my views regarding this, which I won't really get into here. This thread is already 40 pages long and I doubt it would add to the discussion. Suffice it to say that there certainly are moderates where this issue is concerned, but vice-like, the person in the middle is usually crushed by those on either side.

[Mockingword]

Once the demon is dead, so is the thrall. End of danger. With a possessed Templar, they can turn into an abomination at any point because they are the demon. With the added bonus of running around doing demonic things and making thralls! YAY!

 

Also, please stop ignoring IN GAME lore about only mages are supposed to be possessed by demons. That is like 90% of why they bother with the Circles in the first place. If anyone could be possessed and turned abomination (without mage fueled intervention) what is the point of being afraid of them?

Why don't YOU stop ignoring IN GAME LORE that tells us that corpses, animals, and friggin' trees can get possessed? Not to mention individuals like, say, Lady Harriman, who, according to her own damn family, showed no signs of magical talent prior to being possessed by a desire demon.

 

Demons can get inside virtually anything, even Templars. And there's nothing anywhere that says that they must have a mage's help to do it.

 

Yes, what is the point? Finally, a worthwhile question.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Mages have a direct connection with the fade, which demons can use to escape without having to pass through the veil. That makes mages at more risk. If a demon manages to escape the fade some other way, they can possess basically anything. Sophia Dryden from the Soldier's Peak quest and the number of warden skeletons are examples of non-mages and corpses possessed by demons. In Shale's DLC we see a cat that's been possessed by a demon. Sylvan are trees that have been possessed by demons. The profane are literally ROCKS that have been possessed by demons. Demons use mages as a possible route to bypass the veil, but we know there are places in Kirkwall from which demons can simply cross over due to degradation. It's definitely possible under some circumstances for a non-mage to become possessed without any participation from a mage. I would look for this to happen often with the veil tears in Inquisition.

[LobselVith8]

No, she just had a city experience a severe Chantry storm and now has many demons, abominations, and blood mages running around tearing what's left of the city apart.

Mages fighting templars in self-defense is what transpired as a result of Meredith's order of execution. Chaos certainly followed, but it happened because of the Right of Annulment. Let's not pretend it was anything other than an annulment against the entire Circle for the actions of one single man.

We can argue this all day, but basically Cullen had no choice in the matter. Nobody did. Just what Anders wanted.

And yet, Cullen was able to defy Meredith when she threatened the Champion, who (in the pro-mage run) has the blood of many templars on his hands at the time of Cullen's insurrection.

[Helios969]

Different meaning to different people. To me it's the ability to recognize the validity of both sides of the argument. Tends to make one cautious about speaking in absolutes, which only apply within the framework of our individual moralities/realities.

[Dean_the_Young]

Mages have a direct connection with the fade, which demons can use to escape without having to pass through the veil. That makes mages at more risk. If a demon manages to escape the fade some other way, they can possess basically anything. Sophia Dryden from the Soldier's Peak quest and the number of warden skeletons are examples of non-mages and corpses possessed by demons. In Shale's DLC we see a cat that's been possessed by a demon. Sylvan are trees that have been possessed by demons. The profane are literally ROCKS that have been possessed by demons. Demons use mages as a possible route to bypass the veil, but we know there are places in Kirkwall from which demons can simply cross over due to degradation. It's definitely possible under some circumstances for a non-mage to become possessed without any participation from a mage. I would look for this to happen often with the veil tears in Inquisition.

 

This is a good summation.

 

There does seem to be a significant element of willpower involved with the demonic possession- it's obvious for the mages, who are always at potential threat (and thus have the most chances to lose a will save), but past extremely exceptional cases (the Forbidden One in Denerim, the kidnapped Templars) demons who bypass the veil in other ways seem to possess the nearest/easiest/first thing they- which doesn't appear to be normal people or even mages. Demons possessing people in the sense they possess mages as abominations seems to be very, very rare under natural conditions.

 

A good rule of thumb for how common something is in societies is if the phenomenum is recognized and categorized. Possessing trees, skeletons, things? Not the norm, but common enough to be categorized. Possessing mages? Not only categorized, but subcategorized. Possessing mundanes (as opposed to thralldom)? No categorization that we know of.

[EmissaryofLies]

Ah, and just like before, in order to try to prove your interpretation of something, you use nothing but the "something".

No arguments, no correlations, nothing but "it is because I say so".

Never mind how wanting to do something does not, in any way or form, means you are suddenly a fanatic who believe you have a divine mission.

 

So, you just failed at grammar, failed at debating and failed at logic itself.

In resume, you are a failure.

 

Have a nice day.

 

Hello, JB! It’s great to see you! Now then, on to the matter at hand:

 

Pro Mage Bethany is an Andrastian who believes that it is not the Maker’s will for mages to be locked up. She then expresses the sentiment that she wants to free her fellow mages, that’s of course assuming that you’re capable of reading between lines. I believe that you are.

 

Full Definition of SENTIMENT : an attitude, thought, or judgment prompted by feeling, a specific view or notion:  predilection

 

Used in a sentence: “An expression of antiwar sentiments”

 

Bethany + Pro Mage Ending = The need to Free fellow mages

Bethany + Mission from Maker Pro Mage Ending = The need to Free fellow mages.

 

“On the Pro-Circle side, she doesn't exactly say the Maker gave her a mission to free mages, she says she no longer believes it is his will they be locked up.” – Jedi Master of Orion

 

Even so with my immediate interjection, both involve the maker’s will and both end up with mages freed with her support, active or no (supported by her stance on mages throughout the entire game), I will translate: “Basically the same attitude, thought, opinion, view or notion.” Ultimately meaning free mages as the maker's will. This is of course ignoring my next statement in the thread, which you brush under the rug because it sh*ts on what you call an "argument". 

 

Not to mention that Orion’s statement is not the full picture.

 

Here’s Pro Mage Bethany’s verbatim take on the issue:

 

“Maybe it took being locked in the gallows to understand my place in this world, to see the need to free my fellow mages”  - Bethany Hawke.

 

“The Maker is wiser than we can be in a lifetime, who am I to question his plan?” - Bethany Hawke.

 

With her belief in the maker, her will to free mages and her historically pro-mage(her love for her kind and her willingness to go out of her way for them i.e. Feynreil) stance, it is not so crazy to declare a mission to do so as pretty much the same sentiment. You’ll disagree because you are petty and cantankerous, of course.

 

I’d ask you to pull your head out of your ass, but it seems comfortable there with your logical Tranquil blowjobs to Alrik sentiments. It’ll only take a little time, right?

 

 

I find you to be a dishonest, deplorable and ugly poster. I regret wasting what little time I have on a ridiculous clown such as yourself.

 

I sincerely hope that your day is as pleasant as you are. 

[dragonflight288]

Greagoir called the Right of Annulment because of the abomination infestation, not because of one man. Greagoir also wasn't an Archdemon short of a Blight, unlike Meredith.

 

And he was willing to call off the Right on the word of Irving, despite Cullen's objections. He took the word of a mage over a templar because he has experience working with that mage and knows him well.

 

Meredith shows no such inclination.