And he was willing to call off the Right on the word of Irving, despite Cullen's objections. He took the word of a mage over a templar because he has experience working with that mage and knows him well.
Meredith shows no such inclination.
She also didn't have Irving, She had Orsino.
I think that distinction needs to be cleared up rapidly.
She also didn't have Irving, She had Orsino.
I think that distinction needs to be cleared up rapidly.
But she did have the possibility of a pro-mage Hawke who can work to appease the mages.
EDIT She was also way too involved with politics, even before Hawke showed up. She was way too busy trying to influence policy in Kirkwall, removing the Captain of the Guard, preventing a Viscount from being appointed, and refused to be told she was wrong, even by a pro-circle Hawke who tells her Orsino wasn't involved with Thrask's rebellion.
She was doing too much, and too much of it is stuff she shouldn't have gotten involved with to begin with.
Modifié par dragonflight288, 31 mars 2014 - 02:00 .
Why don't YOU stop ignoring IN GAME LORE that tells us that corpses, animals, and friggin' trees can get possessed? Not to mention individuals like, say, Lady Harriman, who, according to her own damn family, showed no signs of magical talent prior to being possessed by a desire demon.
Demons can get inside virtually anything, even Templars. And there's nothing anywhere that says that they must have a mage's help to do it.
Yes, what is the point? Finally, a worthwhile question.
Lady Harriman was a mage and offered her family up to the desire demon. They were not possessed, they were in thrall. Once the demon was dead, they were released. Threat over. Not the same as a freaking Templar getting possessed.
Again, the entire point of the Enemies Among Us was the blood mage twisting Templars into demon possessed abominations. It is said, IN THAT VERY QUEST that Templars are supposed to be immune. It is their schtick. The whole horror being Enemies Among Us was that non-mages were being possessed. If that was supposed to be possible, it wouldn't be so shocking and bad. So continue to ignore the lore, if you want, but I am going to chalk you up to being a troll and ignore anything else you say.
But she did have the possibility of a pro-mage Hawke who can work to appease the mages.
EDIT She was also way too involved with politics, even before Hawke showed up. She was way too busy trying to influence policy in Kirkwall, removing the Captain of the Guard, preventing a Viscount from being appointed, and refused to be told she was wrong, even by a pro-circle Hawke who tells her Orsino wasn't involved with Thrask's rebellion.
She was doing too much, and too much of it is stuff she shouldn't have gotten involved with to begin with.
And big fat load of good it does to say that "we're not ALL blood mage... quiet Quentin! I told you not to call me here! I'm busy~! Ahem... you can't accuse us all of being murders!"
Lady Harriman was a mage and offered her family up to the desire demon. They were not possessed, they were in thrall. Once the demon was dead, they were released. Threat over. Not the same as a freaking Templar getting possessed.
Despite the fact that every single source tells us that Lady Herriman, was in fact, NOT a mage.
Despite the fact that every single source tells us that Lady Herriman, was in fact, NOT a mage.
Other than all that spell slinging she was doing.
Also, the wiki:
Lady Harimann was the mastermind behind the assassination of the Vaels, the ruling family of Starkhaven. She was a potent mage, and took control of the Harimann family following her father's death. She murdered the Vaels (long-time friends of the Harimanns) in order to further her own family's power. She placed Goran Vael on the throne of Starkhaven, as she believed she could easily manipulate him. To solidify her hold, she prepared to force her daughter, Flora, into marriage with Vael.
Just because Sebastian didn't know...
And big fat load of good it does to say that "we're not ALL blood mage... quiet Quentin! I told you not to call me here! I'm busy~! Ahem... you can't accuse us all of being murders!"
They weren't all murderers and they weren't all blood mages. Orsino is a lousy advocate, it's true, but that does not take away the truth of what he said.
Other than all that spell slinging she was doing.
She was clearly using some form of blood magic, but was that innate magic she was born with or a gift from the demon as part of the power she had been promised?. Her daughter and Sebastian both say she isn't a mage, and no magic was seen or used until the demon was found when they were expanding the foundation. In fact, it's made quite clear the Herriman's are proud of how little magic they have in their family.
They weren't all murderers and they weren't all blood mages. Orsino is a lousy advocate, it's true, but that does not take away the truth of what he said.
The point wasn't whether or not Orsino was wrong, but rather that he was hardly a credible enough source for someone to take him on his word alone. Especially for a Templar. =)
She was clearly using some form of blood magic, but was that innate magic she was born with or a gift from the demon as part of the power she had been promised?. Her daughter and Sebastian both say she isn't a mage, and no magic was seen or used until the demon was found when they were expanding the foundation. In fact, it's made quite clear the Herriman's are proud of how little magic they have in their family.
She would have had to have been a mage any sort of deal with the demon. Also, she kept everything else hidden from her family, why not this?
It is a case of occam's razor, either she was a mage that hid it or due to some random magical exception lady Harimann was able to deal with a desire demon and just happened to start using magic afterwards. Simplest solution here is that she was always a mage.
The sources here is Sebastion and her daughter expressing that they didn't think she was a mage. Harimann herself doesn't say that she magically got her power because of the deal, it isn't addressed at all during the showdown.
Oh great, we are back to using discusions about the railroad system that was the plot in DA2 to come up with moderate characters?
Cullen followed Meredith because the plot dictated it, Cullen ignored the threat of Anders for the same reason Hawke didn't cut his head off-the plot demanded it, Orsino hid blood mages and covered for Quentin because the plot demanded it, Meredith went from paranoid to batshit crazy hitler reincarnated because the plot demanded it, Anders blew up the only middle ground because the plot demanded it, Merril pursued her eluvian and Marathari unleashed the demon which possessed her because the plot demanded it, Hawke couldn't save his mother because the plot demanded it, and Hawke stood there like a slack jawed idiot and watched Huon kill his wife because the plot demanded it.
Actually, obviously THE PLOT is the great evil of DA2 that Hawke should have been trying to kill the whole time.
Oh great, we are back to using discusions about the railroad system that was the plot in DA2 to come up with moderate characters?
Cullen followed Meredith because the plot dictated it, Cullen ignored the threat of Anders for the same reason Hawke didn't cut his head off-the plot demanded it, Orsino hid blood mages and covered for Quentin because the plot demanded it, Meredith went from paranoid to batshit crazy hitler reincarnated because the plot demanded it, Anders blew up the only middle ground because the plot demanded it, Merril pursued her eluvian and Marathari unleashed the demon which possessed her because the plot demanded it, Hawke couldn't save his mother because the plot demanded it, and Hawke stood there like a slack jawed idiot and watched Huon kill his wife because the plot demanded it.
Actually, obviously THE PLOT is the great evil of DA2 that Hawke should have been trying to kill the whole time.
God save me from lousy writing? =p
On Orsino and Meredith btw they failed each other. Meredith was paranoid about blood mages in the circle. Orsino was paraniod enough about Meredith that he sought to fight her rather then work together.
The Knight Commander and the 1st Enchanter should work together-Gregoire and Irving, Eron and Edmonde, instead we had the idiocy that occurred when the two basically do everything they can to undermine and counter each other.
Sadly Meredith wasn't wrong about the blood mages, and Orsino wasn't wrong about her eventual overreaction, so neither were right and just made each other worse.
God save me from lousy writing? =p
Nah, I am not saying it is lousy, it was completely intentional and the point of DA2. If they made it where you could fix the situation we wouldn't be in the situation we are in now with Templars and Mages on this forum more or less at each other's throats.
Some of it was more a choice. Gaider said they played with the idea of allowing Hawke to save his mother, but were afraid that people wouldn't like failing the quest if you didn't make it in time. Personally, I think failing in games is good. Do you have any idea how long it took me to beat Super Mario Bros?
Nah, I am not saying it is lousy, it was completely intentional and the point of DA2. If they made it where you could fix the situation we wouldn't be in the situation we are in now with Templars and Mages on this forum more or less at each other's throats.
Some of it was more a choice. Gaider said they played with the idea of allowing Hawke to save his mother, but were afraid that people wouldn't like failing the quest if you didn't make it in time. Personally, I think failing in games is good. Do you have any idea how long it took me to beat Super Mario Bros?
I was referencing something. 
Mages fighting templars in self-defense is what transpired as a result of Meredith's order of execution. Chaos certainly followed, but it happened because of the Right of Annulment. Let's not pretend it was anything other than an annulment against the entire Circle for the actions of one single man.
And yet, Cullen was able to defy Meredith when she threatened the Champion, who (in the pro-mage run) has the blood of many templars on his hands at the time of Cullen's insurrection.
Again, Cullen does not know that. All he knows is that the Chantry exploded in a magical fashion, then all of a sudden the mages started rebelling. Remember, characters don't know what we know.
As for Mage Hawke, that's because Hawke is the protagonist. As for an ingame reason, Hawke is the Champion of Kirkwall. If that status was enough to keep Meredith from locking them up for three years, who knows what killing them may have done. He defies her wanting to kill Hawke, since he thought Hawke should be arrested.
Again, Cullen does not know that. All he knows is that the Chantry exploded in a magical fashion, then all of a sudden the mages started rebelling. Remember, characters don't know what we know.
As for Mage Hawke, that's because Hawke is the protagonist. As for an ingame reason, Hawke is the Champion of Kirkwall. If that status was enough to keep Meredith from locking them up for three years, who knows what killing them may have done. He defies her wanting to kill Hawke, since he thought Hawke should be arrested.
Trusting Meredith is a pretty questionable judgement choice, by Act III of DA2. Basically all of Kirkwall had decided at that point that she was a major problem. The people of Kirkwall were barely being held back from rebellion by the Grand Cleric, she was so unpopular. Cullen would have had to have some pretty clear bias to continue supporting her as much as he did. I can't really see him as a moderate character in DA2, for that reason.
I could see that opinion changing in Inquisition, after what he saw during the annulment and after Meredith's true nature became obvious. I definitely could see Cullen becoming a moderate character. I just don't really see that in him inside the context of DA2. What I see is a lightening of his views towards the end, when he finally sees what Meredith is.
Trusting Meredith is a pretty questionable judgement choice, by Act III of DA2. Basically all of Kirkwall had decided at that point that she was a major problem. The people of Kirkwall were barely being held back from rebellion by the Grand Cleric, she was so unpopular. Cullen would have had to have some pretty clear bias to continue supporting her as much as he did. I can't really see him as a moderate character in DA2, for that reason.
I could see that opinion changing in Inquisition, after what he saw during the annulment and after Meredith's true nature became obvious. I definitely could see Cullen becoming a moderate character. I just don't really see that in him inside the context of DA2. What I see is a lightening of his views towards the end, when he finally sees what Meredith is.
She was unpopular by the nobility because she was impeding the office of the viscount from replacing the fallen Dumar.
Not because of the Mage issue, in fact if Hawke speaks against Meredith during the beginning of Act 3 only a single noble, and a lesser one at that is even rallied to the cause, ultimately she was unpopular not by any treatment against mages, in fact she had many admirers for that for many a year, she wasn't popular because she stepped outside the Templar station.
So i can see a Moderate cullen supporting her to a point, but i also am of the mind Cullen never really was a Moderate, He believes in the circle after all.
Again, Cullen does not know that. All he knows is that the Chantry exploded in a magical fashion, then all of a sudden the mages started rebelling. Remember, characters don't know what we know.
Cullen knows that Meredith is annulling an entire Circle for the actions of a single mage because she says it right in front of him (and a plethora of other templars in their company), and that Meredith never contests Orsinio's proclamation that the Circle wasn't responsible for the attack. Letting an entire population needlessly suffer an execution to appease a hypothetical mob is certainly not the actions of a moderate character, whether or not three people (out of an entire population) are rescued.
As for Mage Hawke, that's because Hawke is the protagonist. As for an ingame reason, Hawke is the Champion of Kirkwall. If that status was enough to keep Meredith from locking them up for three years, who knows what killing them may have done. He defies her wanting to kill Hawke, since he thought Hawke should be arrested.
Arrested? The Champion of Kirkwall hasn't surrendered in that scene, and has reached that point by killing every templar in his path to make certain as many mages as possible can escape the Gallows.
I can understand the problematic nature of Cullen's story arc, but he never really comes across as a moderate (from his Act I proclamation about how mages shouldn't be treated as people and are weapons to his Act II defense of expanding the Rite of Tranquility more widely to his Act III participation in the Right of Annulment), even though the developers have pointed him out to be one. This is also a man who has used the term 'heathen' in Origins and Dragon Age II, which also isn't a sign (to me) of a moderate character.
Eh those nobles are pretty much flip flopers. If Hawke is a hardline templar supporter (I.E. you side with Meredith about the mages but offer to step in as Vicount) they'll take about rogue mages and how they're a threat and how much they want you to be vicount. If you're a hardline mage supporter they'll say mages aren't so bad.
Also I highly doubt anyone saying Cullen's a moderate said he was at the beginning of the game. Cause he's not. He's a hardline who eventually softens his position. It's the end of DA2 that has him moderate. He clearly let's Hawke & Co along with all the mages that "lived to tell the tale" go free without attempting to stop them. Over DA2 has him questioning Meredith's extreme methods if you talk to him.
She was unpopular by the nobility because she was impeding the office of the viscount from replacing the fallen Dumar.
Not because of the Mage issue, in fact if Hawke speaks against Meredith during the beginning of Act 3 only a single noble, and a lesser one at that is even rallied to the cause, ultimately she was unpopular not by any treatment against mages, in fact she had many admirers for that for many a year, she wasn't popular because she stepped outside the Templar station.
So i can see a Moderate cullen supporting her to a point, but i also am of the mind Cullen never really was a Moderate, He believes in the circle after all.
It doesn't really matter exactly why she was unpopular, the point is that nearly everyone in the town thought she was an incompetent leader and wanted her gone, for some reason or another. If the vast majority of people disliked her, then it seems questionable why those following her are still on board. It doesn't necessarily have to be a bias on the mage issue, in Cullen's case, but it seems pretty likely, to me.
Trusting Meredith is a pretty questionable judgement choice, by Act III of DA2. Basically all of Kirkwall had decided at that point that she was a major problem. The people of Kirkwall were barely being held back from rebellion by the Grand Cleric, she was so unpopular. Cullen would have had to have some pretty clear bias to continue supporting her as much as he did. I can't really see him as a moderate character in DA2, for that reason.
I could see that opinion changing in Inquisition, after what he saw during the annulment and after Meredith's true nature became obvious. I definitely could see Cullen becoming a moderate character. I just don't really see that in him inside the context of DA2. What I see is a lightening of his views towards the end, when he finally sees what Meredith is.
Inquisition could certainly be a different story for Cullen. He would certainly need to change in order to accept a main character who is an apostate having a position of authority, unless he's a pro-templar option as a companion and serves with one of the two main templar divisions.
Wait...is any mage Inquisitor other than the dalish one an apostate?
(Also I there's a chance an Inquisitor mage would be looked on the same as a GW mage. I.E. templars have no say so over what they do legally (even if you get a few idiot exceptions trying to start something).)
Cullen knows that Meredith is annulling an entire Circle for the actions of a single mage because she says it right in front of him (and a plethora of other templars in their company), and that Meredith never contests Orsinio's proclamation that the Circle wasn't responsible for the attack. Letting an entire population needlessly suffer an execution to appease a hypothetical mob is certainly not the actions of a moderate character, whether or not three people (out of an entire population) are rescued.
Arrested? The Champion of Kirkwall hasn't surrendered in that scene, and has reached that point by killing every templar in his path to make certain as many mages as possible can escape the Gallows.
I can understand the problematic nature of Cullen's story arc, but he never really comes across as a moderate (from his Act I proclamation about how mages shouldn't be treated as people and are weapons to his Act II defense of expanding the Rite of Tranquility more widely to his Act III participation in the Right of Annulment), even though the developers have pointed him out to be one. This is also a man who has used the term 'heathen' in Origins and Dragon Age II, which also isn't a sign (to me) of a moderate character.
And that right there should be enough. The developers, the people who created the story, say Cullen is one of the more moderate characters. You only disagree because you are far on the Pro-Mage scale.
Wait...is any mage Inquisitor other than the dalish one an apostate?
(Also I there's a chance an Inquisitor mage would be looked on the same as a GW mage. I.E. templars have no say so over what they do legally (even if you get a few idiot exceptions trying to start something).)
They are all apostates considering the Circles are now abolished.
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