1305 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

They are all apostates considering the Circles are now abolished.

 

 

So Vivi's an aposate I wanna see her reaction if you call her that.

 

But I meant if they were raised in a circle.

[LobselVith8]

Wait...is any mage Inquisitor other than the dalish one an apostate?

 

(Also I there's a chance an Inquisitor mage would be looked on the same as a GW mage. I.E. templars have no say so over what they do legally (even if you get a few idiot exceptions trying to start something).)

 

The Vashoth mage, although it's possible someone like Vivienne might see them as maleficar, due to the non-Circle sanctioned magic that's likely practiced by the Dalish and the Vashoth.

[Ryzaki]

The Vashoth mage, although it's possible someone like Vivienne might see them as maleficar, due to the non-Circle sanctioned magic that's likely practiced by the Dalish and the Vashoth.

 

? Where as it said the Vashoth mage knew different magic than the human mage? Isn't the whole point of the Vasoth that he/she was raised outside the Qun?

 

Well at least we'll see how a group of Vasoth treat magic and how that differs from the rest of the Qunari. Even the Tal Vasoth kept them collared.

 

I know the dalish one probably has different magic because I recall the devs mentioning that's why they didn't do a dalish mage in DAO.

[Lambdadelta]

And that right there should be enough. The developers, the people who created the story, say Cullen is one of the more moderate characters. You only disagree because you are far on the Pro-Mage scale. 

 

With all due respect to them, the developers often say a lot of things that contradict the actual game. And this is one such case. When the writer says something that contradicts the direct evidence presented within the text, I consider the latter to take precedence. The fact that they say he is a moderate character does not change the fact that all the textual evidence shows the exact opposite. The writers' stance on it is not irrelevant, but the story still stands for itself.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

So Vivi's an aposate I wanna see her reaction if you call her that.

 

But I meant if they were raised in a circle.

That will be fun.

 

Ah, in that case probably only the Human Mage then.

[LobselVith8]

And that right there should be enough. The developers, the people who created the story, say Cullen is one of the more moderate characters. You only disagree because you are far on the Pro-Mage scale. 

 

Which completely ignores all the points that I made about how he never actually comes across as moderate in the storyline.

 

And let's put that little comment about 'pro-mage' to rest: Arguing that mages shouldn't be treated as people and are weapons isn't an example of a moderate. Arguing about expanding the implementation of tranquility, and then acting condescending about the mages who abhor the Rite, isn't the sign of a moderate. Standing by while the Right of Annulment will kill an entire population of men, women, and children for an act that they aren't responsible for isn't an example of a moderate. These are the reasons that Cullen doesn't come across as a moderate to me. The developers may have intended otherwise, but that's not how it comes across, regardless of their intentions. Inquisition may certainly change that, of course.

[naddaya]

Trusting Meredith is a pretty questionable judgement choice, by Act III of DA2. Basically all of Kirkwall had decided at that point that she was a major problem. The people of Kirkwall were barely being held back from rebellion by the Grand Cleric, she was so unpopular. Cullen would have had to have some pretty clear bias to continue supporting her as much as he did. I can't really see him as a moderate character in DA2, for that reason.

 

I could see that opinion changing in Inquisition, after what he saw during the annulment and after Meredith's true nature became obvious. I definitely could see Cullen becoming a moderate character. I just don't really see that in him inside the context of DA2. What I see is a lightening of his views towards the end, when he finally sees what Meredith is. 

 

Frankly, seeing how many nutty blood mages were in Kirkwall, in Act 3 she still seemed pretty reasonable to me, if a bit, uh, passionate.

[Ryzaki]

That will be fun.

 

Ah, in that case probably only the Human Mage then.

 

Aww I wanted the hilarity of a Qunari female in a circle. Then again we're not playing the origin anyway so...

 

So two apostate origins and one CM origin. Not bad.

 

So I'll do my Qunari femmage (pro-circle) first, rogue human male (doesn't care) second then my human female warrior (pro-templar), then a human male mage (pro-mage).

 

Good good. That's four playthroughs so far. *temples fingers*

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Which completely ignores all the points that I made about how he never actually comes across as moderate in the storyline.

 

And let's put that little comment about 'pro-mage' to rest: Arguing that mages shouldn't be treated as people and are weapons isn't an example of a moderate. Arguing about expanding the implementation of tranquility, and then acting condescending about the mages who abhor the Rite, isn't the sign of a moderate. Standing by while the Right of Annulment will kill an entire population of men, women, and children for an act that they aren't responsible for isn't an example of a moderate. These are the reasons that Cullen doesn't come across as a moderate to me. The developers may have intended otherwise, but that's not how it comes across, regardless of their intentions. Inquisition may certainly change that, of course.

It does. You see him as an evil person because you are very supportive of the mages, so any Templar seems an evil person.  I'm not saying you are wrong to think that way, but it does cloud your perception just like my views cloud mine. That's why this whole who is moderate and who is extremists discussions will never get much traction. People have different views so someone is moderate for Person A but extremist for Person B.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I would like to see the context in which the "developers" said Cullen was a moderate character, because it's hard for me to see it with the larger majority of his presence in the games. At which point is he moderate, in their view? Do they mean he became a moderate character at the end of DA2? I can see that being the case, and that we'll see evidence of it in his next appearance. If they're saying he was a moderate character throughout DA2, I can't agree. He certainly wasn't a moderate character at the end of DA:O. 

[Wolfen09]

A moderate character would have been thrask, if he was still alive.  He had a very unique perspective as his daughter was a mage.  He always tried to play both sides fairly, even if he did take the mages side a few times.

[Master Warder Z_]

It doesn't really matter exactly why she was unpopular, the point is that nearly everyone in the town thought she was an incompetent leader and wanted her gone, for some reason or another. If the vast majority of people disliked her, then it seems questionable why those following her are still on board. It doesn't necessarily have to be a bias on the mage issue, in Cullen's case, but it seems pretty likely, to me. 

 

No, it does in fact matter why she was unpopular, it wasn't because she was a failure as a Knight Commander given few save the mages had any complaints in so far as she ran the circle. To me its the Nobility's complaint with her interference into Politics that transfers over into Orsino's argument that she need back down, because no one cared how she ran the circle, aka it was the only avenue of attack open to the first enchanter, it was why he pushed that angle. And again, she wasn't considered incompetent for the six years the PC is in the city, until she stops the efforts to replace Dumar.

 

Obviously to me, its just the case that the Nobility are miffed the Templars are using their power basis in the city to act as its ruler, not any overt incompetence on their part.

[LobselVith8]

? Where as it said the Vashoth mage knew different magic than the human mage? Isn't the whole point of the Vasoth that he/she was raised outside the Qun?

 

Well at least we'll see how a group of Vasoth treat magic and how that differs from the rest of the Qunari. Even the Tal Vasoth kept them collared.

 

I know the dalish one probably has different magic because I recall the devs mentioning that's why they didn't do a dalish mage in DAO.

 

The Vashoth are a completely different culture. I'm sure there are similarities with some schools of magic, but I'd speculate it's a stretch to think their magical practices mirror the ones from the Circle when they come from mutually exclusive societies.

 

The Dalish is, admittedly, more grounded in the idea of practicing non-Circle sanctioned magic, given Velanna and Merrill demonstrating magic that's adapted to their nomadic environment in nature. "Their spells have evolved to be deeply rooted in nature, manipulating earthly forces with a heavy emphasis on herbalism and healing." (page 104) I can see their school of magic focusing on healing (as mentioned in WoT), perhaps the ability to change shape (as mentioned by the Dalish Warden to Morrigan), or summoning sylvans to attack your foes (like Velanna accomplished). There's also the distinction between the Dalish and the Circle in their prohibition against schools of magic that involve spirits: "Unlike other spellcasters, Dalish mages do not use any magic involving spirits, as they believe all spirits are dangerous." (page 104)

[Nocte ad Mortem]

No, it does in fact matter why she was unpopular, it wasn't because she was a failure as a Knight Commander given few save the mages had any complaints in so far as she ran the circle. To me its the Nobility's complaint with her interference into Politics that transfers over into Orsino's argument that she need back down, because no one cared how she ran the circle, aka it was the only avenue of attack open to the first enchanter, it was why he pushed that angle. And again, she wasn't considered incompetent for the six years the PC is in the city, until she stops the efforts to replace Dumar.

 

Obviously to me, its just the case that the Nobility are miffed the Templars are using their power basis in the city to act as its ruler, not any overt incompetence on their part.

Well, also consider that the first 6 years she wasn't basically a monster corrupted by Red Lyrium. Meredith was certainly never a moderate character, but she wasn't any better than an abomination by the end of the game. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

A moderate character would have been thrask, if he was still alive.  He had a very unique perspective as his daughter was a mage.  He always tried to play both sides fairly, even if he did take the mages side a few times.

Eh, him being the leader of a coup makes him more in the grey between moderate and extremist. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Well, also consider that the first 6 years she wasn't basically a monster corrupted by Red Lyrium. Meredith was certainly never a moderate character, but she wasn't any better than an abomination by the end of the game. 

 

That idol didn't really push her into the Redzone until year seven anyway so it becomes a moot point anyway.

[LobselVith8]

It does. You see him as an evil person because you are very supportive of the mages, so any Templar seems an evil person.  I'm not saying you are wrong to think that way, but it does cloud your perception just like my views cloud mine. That's why this whole who is moderate and who is extremists discussions will never get much traction. People have different views so someone is moderate for Person A but extremist for Person B.

 

Your retort is contradicted by the times I've addressed that Ser Bryant, the Lothering templars, Ser Otto, and arguably, Knight-Commander Greagoir came across as good people. I disagree with the Chantry controlled Circles and the Templar Order as it currently stands, but that's entirely different than what you're claiming. I also didn't say Cullen was "evil"; I said he didn't come across as a moderate. Apples and oranges.

[wcholcombe]

With all due respect to them, the developers often say a lot of things that contradict the actual game. And this is one such case. When the writer says something that contradicts the direct evidence presented within the text, I considier the latter to take precedence. The fact that they say he is a moderate character does not change the fact that all the textual evidence shows the exact opposite. The writers' stance on it is not irrelevant, but the story still stands for itself.

Well, one could argue that within the world of Thedas, Cullen is the closest thing to a moderate character. Especially in Kirkwall.  Its all a matter of degrees and context and within the lunacy that was Kirkwall Cullen comes off as moderate, or put more simply, he is the game designers example of how a moderate character would exist in Kirkwall.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Your retort is contradicted by the times I've addressed that Ser Bryant, the Lothering templars, Ser Otto, and arguably, Knight-Commander Greagoir came across as good people. I disagree with the Chantry controlled Circles and the Templar Order as it currently stands, but that's entirely different than what you're claiming. I also didn't say Cullen was "evil"; I said he didn't come across as a moderate. Apples and oranges.

All four of your examples would do the exact same thing in Cullen's place. Just because they are presented in more favorable circumstances doesn't mean they are immediately better. They all swore an oath as a Templar, so if they were at Kirkwall when Meredith called the RoA, they would be there fighting mages just as earnestly as the ones who were actually there. 

 

Again, perceptions alter how we see the world and the people within it. 

[wcholcombe]

They are all apostates considering the Circles are now abolished.

Do we actually know this?  It is entirely possible that some mages choose not to leave the circles just as some templars likely didn't follow the exodus.  The Chantry may have one definition for apostates now that is different from the Templars.

 

Example- The templars may consider Vivianne an apostate, but because she isn't participating in the rebellion and is basically doing the same thing she was prior to all this, the Chantry may not.

 

Just something I have been chewing on as I see it thrown around a lot on the forums that all mages are now apostates, but I can easily see that depending on the situation and who it is that is throwing around the label.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Do we actually know this?  It is entirely possible that some mages choose not to leave the circles just as some templars likely didn't follow the exodus.  The Chantry may have one definition for apostates now that is different from the Templars.

 

Example- The templars may consider Vivianne an apostate, but because she isn't participating in the rebellion and is basically doing the same thing she was prior to all this, the Chantry may not.

 

Just something I have been chewing on as I see it thrown around a lot on the forums that all mages are now apostates, but I can easily see that depending on the situation and who it is that is throwing around the label.

But the circles do not exist anymore. The Enchanters voted to dissolve them in Asunder. 

 

Now I'm sure some mages surrendered to the Templars, but I wouldn't say they are in a Circle anymore but some new temporary system. Like you said, it's complicated.

[wcholcombe]

The Vashoth are a completely different culture. I'm sure there are similarities with some schools of magic, but I'd speculate it's a stretch to think their magical practices mirror the ones from the Circle when they come from mutually exclusive societies.

 

The Dalish is, admittedly, more grounded in the idea of practicing non-Circle sanctioned magic, given Velanna and Merrill demonstrating magic that's adapted to their nomadic environment in nature. "Their spells have evolved to be deeply rooted in nature, manipulating earthly forces with a heavy emphasis on herbalism and healing." (page 104) I can see their school of magic focusing on healing (as mentioned in WoT), perhaps the ability to change shape (as mentioned by the Dalish Warden to Morrigan), or summoning sylvans to attack your foes (like Velanna accomplished). There's also the distinction between the Dalish and the Circle in their prohibition against schools of magic that involve spirits: "Unlike other spellcasters, Dalish mages do not use any magic involving spirits, as they believe all spirits are dangerous." (page 104)

While that is true, in terms of gameplay in DAI I would be fairly certain the spells will all be the same regardless of race/background of the character.

[Master Warder Z_]

But the circles do not exist anymore. The Enchanters voted to dissolve them in Asunder. 

 

Now I'm sure some mages surrendered to the Templars, but I wouldn't say they are in a Circle anymore but some new temporary system.

 

Does that effect matter to Enchanters who were not part of the vote or voted against it?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Does that effect matter to Enchanters who were not part of the vote or voted against it?

Yes. There's laws enacted that people in real society didn't vote for or even voted against but are still passed thus still effect them.

[LobselVith8]

All four of your examples would do the exact same thing in Cullen's place. Just because they are presented in more favorable circumstances doesn't mean they are immediately better. They all swore an oath as a Templar, so if they were at Kirkwall when Meredith called the RoA, they would be there fighting mages just as earnestly as the ones who were actually there. 

 

Again, perceptions alter how we see the world and the people within it. 

 

There's no way of knowing if those characters would obey Meredith's order, knowing full well that an entire Circle was being annulled for the actions of one person, and to appease a figurative mob that would "demand blood".