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[wcholcombe]

But the circles do not exist anymore. The Enchanters voted to dissolve them in Asunder. 

 

Now I'm sure some mages surrendered to the Templars, but I wouldn't say they are in a Circle anymore but some new temporary system. Like you said, it's complicated.

But my point would be that I don't think for example, Justinia is going to be coming up to Celene and telling her to get rid of that Apostate Vivienne just because there is no longer a circle.  If mages choose not to leave the circles at all-possible, or decided they prefered life under the chantry to with the rebels and returned to the chantry, or just continued doing whatever role they provided to the Chantry-court mages etc, I don't see the chantry labeling them apostates, whereas the red templars or whatever would.

[Lambdadelta]

Well, one could argue that within the world of Thedas, Cullen is the closest thing to a moderate character. Especially in Kirkwall.  Its all a matter of degrees and context and within the lunacy that was Kirkwall Cullen comes off as moderate, or put more simply, he is the game designers example of how a moderate character would exist in Kirkwall.

 

Eh, they may have inteded to write him that way, but they were pretty far from sucessfull. He... really does not comes across as moderate even in comparison and relatively to the more extreme characters. I mean, he's no Sir Alrik, obviously, but I can think of much, much better examples of moderate characters in Kirkwall - Thrask, Varric, Isabela, just off the top of my head, fit the definition much better. You could argue about how well exactly they fit the definition, but they's still closer to moderate than Cullen.

[Ryzaki]

The Vashoth are a completely different culture. I'm sure there are similarities with some schools of magic, but I'd speculate it's a stretch to think their magical practices mirror the ones from the Circle when they come from mutually exclusive societies.

 

The Dalish is, admittedly, more grounded in the idea of practicing non-Circle sanctioned magic, given Velanna and Merrill demonstrating magic that's adapted to their nomadic environment in nature. "Their spells have evolved to be deeply rooted in nature, manipulating earthly forces with a heavy emphasis on herbalism and healing." (page 104) I can see their school of magic focusing on healing (as mentioned in WoT), perhaps the ability to change shape (as mentioned by the Dalish Warden to Morrigan), or summoning sylvans to attack your foes (like Velanna accomplished). There's also the distinction between the Dalish and the Circle in their prohibition against schools of magic that involve spirits: "Unlike other spellcasters, Dalish mages do not use any magic involving spirits, as they believe all spirits are dangerous." (page 104)

 

True I was just thinking of how the Qunari saw mages though. I'm not seeing it as a culture likely to want to cultivate it but we'll see in game.

 

Eww no spirit magic means no walking bomb. Losers. That's the best spell in the game. But yeah I get your point. I was just hoping Qunari mage was a circle mage XD
 

[Ryzaki]

Eh, they may have inteded to write him that way, but they were pretty far from sucessfull. He... really does not comes across as moderate even in comparison and relatively to the more extreme characters. I mean, he's no Sir Alrik, obviously, but I can think of much, much better examples of moderate characters in Kirkwall - Thrask, Varric, Isabela, just off the top of my head, fit the definition much better. You could argue about how well exactly they fit the definition, but they's still closer to moderate than Cullen.

 

Varric isn't moderate. You can see that in the pro-templar ending. And even in the pro-mage one with that "I hope you know what you're doing Hawke..."

 

If anything I'd argue he's pretty close to neutral. He has bigger things to be worried about.

 

And Thrask was far too lenient towards mages. It's what got him killed.

[LobselVith8]

While that is true, in terms of gameplay in DAI I would be fairly certain the spells will all be the same regardless of race/background of the character.

 

True (about the game mechanics), as even Merrill had the same access to similar spells (like the elemental and primal school), but I think (narrative wise) that the mage player from the Vashoth or Dalish culture may encounter certain characters or companions treating him (or her) as a maleficar, similar to how Morrigan was treated for being a shapeshifter.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

There's no way of knowing if those characters would obey Meredith's order, knowing full well that an entire Circle was being annulled for the actions of one person, and to appease a figurative mob that would "demand blood".

Actually, there is more evidence for it than against it.:

They swore an oath when they joined the Templars. 

Meredith was legally(she was wrong in every other way to do so) in the right to enact a RoA.

They wouldn't know the 'single mage' was an apostate and not a Circle mage. 

 

 

But my point would be that I don't think for example, Justinia is going to be coming up to Celene and telling her to get rid of that Apostate Vivienne just because there is no longer a circle.  If mages choose not to leave the circles at all-possible, or decided they prefered life under the chantry to with the rebels and returned to the chantry, or just continued doing whatever role they provided to the Chantry-court mages etc, I don't see the chantry labeling them apostates, whereas the red templars or whatever would.

Oh, yeah that won't be happening. However I wouldn't be surprised if some Templars, regular ones not Red, came to the royal palace to ask the same thing. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Yes. There's laws enacted that people in real society didn't vote for or even voted against but are still passed thus still effect them.

 

The Chantry may disagree with that assessment.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The Chantry may disagree with that assessment.

How do you mean? Which part?

[LobselVith8]

Actually, there is more evidence for it than against it.:

They swore an oath when they joined the Templars. 

Meredith was legally(she was wrong in every other way to do so) in the right to enact a RoA.

They wouldn't know the 'single mage' was an apostate and not a Circle mage. 

 

You said that if they were in "Cullen's place", which would indicate they would be privy to the same information that he was, so they would know a single mage was responsible, and that Meredith was going to annul the Circle to appease a hypothetical mob. That they would proceed with the Right of Annulment when they are informed with all this information is quite the assumption on your part.

[wcholcombe]

Eh, they may have inteded to write him that way, but they were pretty far from sucessfull. He... really does not comes across as moderate even in comparison and relatively to the more extreme characters. I mean, he's no Sir Alrik, obviously, but I can think of much, much better examples of moderate characters in Kirkwall - Thrask, Varric, Isabela, just off the top of my head, fit the definition much better. You could argue about how well exactly they fit the definition, but they's still closer to moderate than Cullen.

In what context?  Isabella is a former slaver who is the entire reason that the Qunari spend the entire game in Kirkwall.  Varric is basically a frat boy on spring break   In their worlds, they are far from moderate.  In the world of mage/templar relations they don't really have a place.  Cullen as a moderate Templar makes sense in DA2.  He is confined by his role in society, but he doesn't go around abusing mages, nor does he support the tranquil solution.  He is a templar though and has been exposed to the horrible realities of what mages can do.  As a templar he falls between the Mages are the devil stance and Mages are should be free and the circles not exist.    He pities mages for their magic and thinks that if he were a mage he would prefer tranquility.  As said previously, Thrask could be argued as a moderate, but depending on the context he can also be viewed as pro mage.

 

In the context of a Kirkwall templar Cullen does fall moderate.  He is on the bridge between abuse and tranquil all mages and letting them be free.  In the context of kirkwall, again, I feel he is a moderate and that is probably what the designers were meaning.  Not that he would be a moderate in perfectly functioning setting. Now, after the events of Kirkwall, I feel his viewpoint has changed greatly as he has now seen both the danger of Mage Abominations but also of Templar abuses.

[wcholcombe]

True (about the game mechanics), as even Merrill had the same access to similar spells (like the elemental and primal school), but I think (narrative wise) that the mage player from the Vashoth or Dalish culture may encounter certain characters or companions treating him (or her) as a maleficar, similar to how Morrigan was treated for being a shapeshifter.

Well yes, definitely.  Depending on how far they go with race choices affects on gameplay the Vashoth Mage may have the most difficult time overall.

[GVulture]

I would like to see the context in which the "developers" said Cullen was a moderate character, because it's hard for me to see it with the larger majority of his presence in the games. At which point is he moderate, in their view? Do they mean he became a moderate character at the end of DA2? I can see that being the case, and that we'll see evidence of it in his next appearance. If they're saying he was a moderate character throughout DA2, I can't agree. He certainly wasn't a moderate character at the end of DA:O. 

WoG, Cullen is a moderate Templar.

 

 

“I like Cullen. […] And there are things I think can be done with Cullen. I like the idea that he has confronted probably the worst that the mages have, he’s encountered the worst of what mages can do. Yet he hasn’t done what some Templars have done, like Meredith, or—I keep wanting to call him Knight Divine—Lord Seeker Lambert in the novel, how they have reacted is to become very anti-mage and very judgmental and to paint all the mages in the same basic plot, a few bad apples spoils the bunch. Cullen to me represents another side of Templars which is a side that we need to keep active. Not all Templars are these heartless bastards who would happily torture mages, that’s not true, there are Templars who are good people. I think Cullen is a good man who recognizes that there are dangerous in magic, dangers that have to be dealt with, but he doesn’t lack for compassion and doesn’t try to say, “Well, let’s take the hard approach and kill everybody and let the Maker sort them out.”  —David Gaider

 

As far as moderate for a Templar... well... I think the scale goes:

Thrask>Grigoire>Evangeline>Cullen>crazies>Lambert>Meredith>abusive aholes who are abusive because they're just sadistic pricks

 

When the extreme right end of the scale is full of all the Lamberts, Merediths, and Mettin's and the like, it leaves a LOT of room in the middle. =p There just aren't many on the far Left in the Templar Order.

 

As Evangeline puts it, those that feel the way that she (and Cullen) do are often held up as an example. The difference between her and Cullen is that he tried to maintain his position to keep himself in a position to do good when he could. While that wouldn't be enough for hard liner mage right people, it doesn't change the fact that he IS a voice of reason in the Order.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Just because a templar swears an oath doesn't mean they can't either decide that oath was wrong to begin with, or that their leadership is acting outside the oath that they swore. We see Thrask and other templars choosing to go against Meredith, so the idea that no templar would do so over an oath doesn't really hold up. We can't know what a character would do in a situation without having seen them in the situation.

[LobselVith8]

Varric isn't moderate. You can see that in the pro-templar ending. And even in the pro-mage one with that "I hope you know what you're doing Hawke..."

 

If anything I'd argue he's pretty close to neutral. He has bigger things to be worried about.

 

I think Varric's friendships with Ser Thrask (pre-Act I) and Anders, and his willingness to accept their two opposing ideological positions, was Lambdadelta's point.

 

And Thrask was far too lenient towards mages. It's what got him killed.

 

An asinine plot got Thrask killed. Grace's desire to kill a pro-mage Champion who helped her made as much sense as Decimus thinking apostate Hawke and his moiety crew were templars. The possible Dalish elf alone should have dispelled that ridiculous notion.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

WoG, Cullen is a moderate Templar.

 

 

As far as moderate for a Templar... well... I think the scale goes:

Thrask>Grigoire>Evangeline>Cullen>crazies>Lambert>Meredith>abusive aholes who are abusive because they're just sadistic pricks

 

When the extreme right end of the scale is full of all the Lamberts, Merediths, and Mettin's and the like, it leaves a LOT of room in the middle. =p There just aren't many on the far Left in the Templar Order.

 

As Evangeline puts it, those that feel the way that she (and Cullen) do are often held up as an example. The difference between her and Cullen is that he tried to maintain his position to keep himself in a position to do good when he could.

Moderate is a philosophical concept. Everyone's idea of it is different. That the developers think he is moderate doesn't mean anyone else has to think so. It's only their opinion. This is like the developers telling us either the templars or mages are the "right" side. They may write the scripts, but this is a subjective area that steps into the real world and outside of their scope of authority. 

 

Personally, I still can't see Cullen as moderate based on what we've seen. I can only see the potential for him to become moderate. 

[Lambdadelta]

All I have to say about Cullen is that a person who considers it in any way acceptable to say or to believe things like "mages are not people" is not moderate. (I don't think such a person can even be considered a decent human being, but that's irrelevant. Moderate does not always mean good, after all.)

[GVulture]

Moderate is a philosophical concept. Everyone's idea of it is different. That the developers think he is moderate doesn't mean anyone else has to think so. It's only their opinion. This is like the developers telling us either the templars or mages are the "right" side. They may write the scripts, but this is a subjective area that steps into the real world and outside of their scope of authority. 

 

Personally, I still can't see Cullen as moderate based on what we've seen. I can only see the potential for him to become moderate. 

He was on his way, but then the narrative during the End Game kinda pisses all over it.

[GVulture]

All I have to say about Cullen is that a person who considers it in any way acceptable to say or to believe things like "mages are not people" is not moderate. (I don't think such a person can even be considered a decent human being, but that's irrelevant. Moderate does not always mean good, after all.)

He moves on past this if you pay any attention to his characterization. If we judged every character based on ONE thing that they say, you could argue that Meredith was pro-mage based on her conversation with a pro-templar Hawke about her past.

[LobselVith8]

He was on his way, but then the narrative during the End Game kinda pisses all over it.

 

How do you think Cullen's characterization might be handled in Inquisition, if he shows up? Do you think he would stand in line with Justina's loyalists, or defect with Lambert's faction?

[Nocte ad Mortem]

He was on his way, but then the narrative during the End Game kinda pisses all over it.

I believe that he showed progress in opposing Meredith vs being outspokenly for following through on the annulment in Ferelden. I really do understand what he went through in Ferelden was terrible and I can sympathize with it slanting his view. That he referenced it in DA2 and acknowledged saving the mages in Ferelden was the right thing to do was important to his character development, to me. That's why I can see his character steering more towards a moderate direction. I just look at a lot of earlier dialog and choices from him and can't see him as representing a moderate position for the majority of the game. 

[Lambdadelta]

In what context?  Isabella is a former slaver who is the entire reason that the Qunari spend the entire game in Kirkwall.  Varric is basically a frat boy on spring break   In their worlds, they are far from moderate.  In the world of mage/templar relations they don't really have a place.  Cullen as a moderate Templar makes sense in DA2.

 

Isabela is not a slaver, though? I know you are referring to comic events, but she never actively practiced slavery, she is in fact very very against it. Anyway, Isabela is sympathetic towards mages, and how open she is about her views and how they display themselves sort of depends on whether you friend or rival her, but it also comes from a place of her being very heavily pro-freedom in general, and it's not so much about mages specifically as about a principle she strongly believes in. As for Varric--

 

I think Varric's friendships with Ser Thrask (pre-Act I) and Anders, and his willingness to accept their two opposing ideological positions, was Lambdadelta's point.

 

Yes, that was what I had in mind; Varric is more pro-templar than pro-mage, but has his sympathies towards both sides. Moderate is often something closer to neutral than anything.

 

Anyway, the exact details are not relevant and not what my point is. My point through bringing them up as an example was to illustrate why to say that Cullen is relatively moderate would not be accurate.

[wcholcombe]

All I have to say about Cullen is that a person who considers it in any way acceptable to say or to believe things like "mages are not people" is not moderate. (I don't think such a person can even be considered a decent human being, but that's irrelevant. Moderate does not always mean good, after all.)

The actual line is "Mages aren't people like you and me."  Hardly saying mages are not people.  He is contextually correct in that there is a definitive difference between Cullen and a mage.  Cullen can't cast magic.  It doesn't mean he doesn't consider them human.  In fact in DA2 it seem to be a theme that Cullen pities mages for having the burden of magic.  The whole line about him thinking Tranquility would be a blessing falls in line with this. However, he doesn't agree with mass tranquilizing or abusing mages. 

[wcholcombe]

Isabela is not a slaver, though? I know you are referring to comic events, but she never actively practiced slavery, she is in fact very very against it. Anyway, Isabela is sympathetic towards mages, and how open she is about her views and how they display themselves sort of depends on whether you friend or rival her, but it also comes from a place of her being very heavily pro-freedom in general, and it's not so much about mages specifically as about a principle she strongly believes in. As for Varric--

 

 

Yes, that was what I had in mind; Varric is more pro-templar than pro-mage, but has his sympathies towards both sides. Moderate is often something closer to neutral than anything.

 

Anyway, the exact details are not relevant and not what my point is. My point through bringing them up as an example was to illustrate why to say that Cullen is relatively moderate would not be accurate.

Well in the comics she hauls slaves-makes her a slaver-and she consoles herself by sleeping with the guy who arranged for her to haul the slaves.  Sure she kills him later but anyway.  Again, neither makes a good comparision to Cullen as being moderate because neither of them is truly part of the Templar/Mage relationship.

[GVulture]

How do you think Cullen's characterization might be handled in Inquisition, if he shows up? Do you think he would stand in line with Justina's loyalists, or defect with Lambert's faction?

Definitely with the Divine. His dialogues have always been a bit Chant of Light heavy. Just based on his dialogues in Act III where he is questioning the will of the Order vs. the will of his tyrannical XO... I don't see him falling in line behind another manipulative oppressor like Lambert.

 

A lot of his moderate dialogues echo a lot of what Evangeline says in Asunder, it just gets buried underneath his need for the Chant to support his views and his head in the sand coping mechanism he employs during the first half of Dragon Age. Act III Cullen is showing signs of crumbling that hard Templar exterior, so yeah... he is Evangeline-Lite to me. Totally gonna be with Justina.

[wcholcombe]

Definitely with the Divine. His dialogues have always been a bit Chant of Light heavy. Just based on his dialogues in Act III where he is questioning the will of the Order vs. the will of his tyrannical XO... I don't see him falling in line behind another manipulative oppressor like Lambert.

 

A lot of his moderate dialogues echo a lot of what Evangeline says in Asunder, it just gets buried underneath his need for the Chant to support his views and his head in the sand coping mechanism he employs during the first half of Dragon Age. Act III Cullen is showing signs of crumbling that hard Templar exterior, so yeah... he is Evangeline-Lite to me. Totally gonna be with Justina.

Well, lets be honest, he also doesn't have the eye opening experience of being in love with a mage to give him perspective, that and Evangeline never experienced a tower falling to abominations.