1305 réponses à ce sujet

[wcholcombe]

You are aware that the Circles are controlled by the Chantry and their templars, correct? That Duncan has to point out that Greagoir only permitted seven mages to serve at Ostagar isn't an issue that's up for dispute.

Well, Irving could also take enchanters out of the circle on retreats and is able to let Wynne go with the Warden without so much as a by your leave to Gregoire.  Where was this templar domination of the circle in "The Calling", it wasn't there because the templars don't abuse the mages in Ferelden like they did in Kirkwall.  Kirkwall was the extreme.

[Hellion Rex]

Laidlaw's podcast interview (where he revealed that the Vashoth was a racial option) gave me the impression that the player will end up deciding certain things about the protagonist, and that the rest of the game will react to certain issues that were chosen by the player. I'd have to imagine that so many factions being a war is one of the reasons why a peace conference might be assembled (based on the leaked survey), although I'm not sure why a Dalish, Dwarven, or Vashoth protagonist would be in attendance.

 

Hmmm... I suppose the end of "The Masked Empire" could explain the Dalish, while the Qunari situation may have the Andrastians call forth the Vashoth to establish an alliance? Perhaps the schism with the templars and the mages has a dwarven delegate attending the meeting because of the lyrium situation? Just some ideas on why they might attend. I suspect the player might be able to decide how the player views the situation as well, since Darrah mentioned that the player would shape the view of the Inquisitor, including how they viewed magic.

Oh I agree. I'm just curious as to what could possibly bring together all those protagonists.

[LobselVith8]

No, my comment was more in reference to his basic attitude of just going along with the the Tranquil request like a rubber stamp. If he didn't believe someone should be tranquiled he should have stood up and said so.  It isn't like gregoire is Meredith or some blood thirsty templar.  Also, Irving's interactions make no sense with regard to the way Gregoire treats him.  I don't have an issue with Irving wanting to change things, it is more the whiney there is nothing I can do attitude he sometimes exhibits.

 

Irving makes it clear that things would be different if it was up to him, but they aren't because of the Chantry. It's not like Irving has any authority to overrule Greagoir or the Chantry. And Irving's dialogue indicates that he argues with Greagoir a lot; it just seems like there's really not much he can do. I don't blame him for being angry at how powerless he is, despite being First Enchanter.

[wcholcombe]

Laidlaw's podcast interview (where he revealed that the Vashoth was a racial option) gave me the impression that the player will end up deciding certain things about the protagonist, and that the rest of the game will react to certain issues that were chosen by the player. I'd have to imagine that so many factions being a war is one of the reasons why a peace conference might be assembled (based on the leaked survey), although I'm not sure why a Dalish, Dwarven, or Vashoth protagonist would be in attendance.

 

Hmmm... I suppose the end of "The Masked Empire" could explain the Dalish, while the Qunari situation may have the Andrastians call forth the Vashoth to establish an alliance? Perhaps the schism with the templars and the mages has a dwarven delegate attending the meeting because of the lyrium situation? Just some ideas on why they might attend. I suspect the player might be able to decide how the player views the situation as well, since Darrah mentioned that the player would shape the view of the Inquisitor, including how they viewed magic.

I imagine the Vashoth is there as a mercenary/guard.

Spoiler

I imagine the dalish are there to bring some settlement of peace to the elven issues that begin to arise in ME

[Master Warder Z_]

Irving makes it clear that things would be different if it was up to him, but they aren't because of the Chantry. It's not like Irving has any authority to overrule Greagoir or the Chantry. And Irving's dialogue indicates that he argues with Greagoir a lot; it just seems like there's really not much he can do. I don't blame him for being angry at how powerless he is, despite being First Enchanter.

 

Yeah seem He had to agree to authorize the rite of Tranquility, He had to agree to allow Mages to undergo the Harrowing, The Knight Commander was merely there to offer protection and guidance. So the argument of him being powerless always struck me as a load of bull.

 

Gregoir as knight commander was just that, He didn't dictate the circle, its just he took his duties as Adviser seriously, it isn't Gregoir's nor The Chantry's fault that he would be soft on blood magic, that isn't their position and he must acquiesce to it given that they already allow he a fair amount of control of the circle as it is.

[LobselVith8]

Well, Irving could also take enchanters out of the circle on retreats and is able to let Wynne go with the Warden without so much as a by your leave to Gregoire.  Where was this templar domination of the circle in "The Calling", it wasn't there because the templars don't abuse the mages in Ferelden like they did in Kirkwall.  Kirkwall was the extreme.

 

The Chantry and the templars controlled the Circles. Even the mage protagonist has default dialogue with Alistair that the Circle will do whatever the Chantry tells them to do. While I don't dispute that Greagoir is leagues different than Meredith, that doesn't change that the mages aren't the ones in control; the Chantry is, which even Wynne addresses (in the City of Amaranthine) in her dialogue about the meeting at Cumberland.

[wcholcombe]

Irving makes it clear that things would be different if it was up to him, but they aren't because of the Chantry. It's not like Irving has any authority to overrule Greagoir or the Chantry. And Irving's dialogue indicates that he argues with Greagoir a lot; it just seems like there's really not much he can do. I don't blame him for being angry at how powerless he is, despite being First Enchanter.

I have no issue with him being angry Lob.  You keep missing my point.  As 1st enchanter he has to approve every tranquility.  This means he has the authority to refuse to tranquil people.  Instead he basically just rubberstamps them and then mutters about "the templars would tranquil us all if they could", which is a statement that has no basis in the circle in Ferelden where Gregoire seem to be very even handed.  My point is, it is within his power to prevent tranquility's that he doesn't agree with, but he doesn't and then chooses to complain about it.  That is my issue with the man.  It doesn't come across in other play throughs, but in the mage origin Irving comes across as an entirely different character then he does in the other play throughs.

[LobselVith8]

Yeah seem He had to agree to authorize the rite of Tranquility, He had to agree to allow Mages to undergo the Harrowing, The Knight Commander was merely there to offer protection and guidance. So the argument of him being powerless always struck me as a load of bull.

 

Gregoir as knight commander was just that, He didn't dictate the circle, its just he took his duties as Adviser seriously, it isn't Gregoir's nor The Chantry's fault that he would be soft on blood magic, that isn't their position and he must acquiesce to it given that they already allow he a fair amount of control of the circle as it is.

 

Greagoir ordered Jowan's execution on the spot when he caught them exiting the chamber; he isn't merely "an adviser". He's the one who permitted only seven mages to combat the Fifth Blight at Ostagar.

[EmissaryofLies]

That 'has to approve' nonsense is paper thin and is as true as the temperament of the KC. Don't believe me? Kirkwall. 

 

First Enchanter is a nice paper title though. Gives the mage in question an illusion of choice and power. That is until the KC strong arms him/her into compliance. 

 

I am not entirely sure this is the case with Irving though, giving his scheme with Uldred.

 

 

"However, the extent to which the templars allow a first enchanter to exercise their powers varies from tower to tower." - as per the Wikia which references World of Thedas

[Master Warder Z_]

That 'has to approve' nonsense is paper thin and is as true as the temperament of the KC. Don't believe me? Kirkwall.

 

Which the devs have already repeatedly stated was an extreme to the insane degree of both factions, obviously not the norm then.

[LobselVith8]

I have no issue with him being angry Lob.  You keep missing my point.  As 1st enchanter he has to approve every tranquility.  This means he has the authority to refuse to tranquil people.  Instead he basically just rubberstamps them and then mutters about "the templars would tranquil us all if they could", which is a statement that has no basis in the circle in Ferelden where Gregoire seem to be very even handed.  My point is, it is within his power to prevent tranquility's that he doesn't agree with, but he doesn't and then chooses to complain about it.  That is my issue with the man.  It doesn't come across in other play throughs, but in the mage origin Irving comes across as an entirely different character then he does in the other play throughs.

 

I'm not missing the point. I'm getting the impression from your posts that you think like Irving can disregard what the Chantry and the templars expect from him without repercussion, and it simply doesn't work that way. As Irving addresses, it's a matter of survival. It's also clear that despite being a moderate, Irving argues with Greagoir quite a bit. While Irving is the one who signed the Rite of Tranquility on Jowan, it's not something that he wanted to do. He didn't even know first-hand what evidence that Greagoir actually had on him. It's really not within his power to defy the Chantry or the templars.

[TK514]

Totally a tangent, but I've often thought it amusing that in the afterglow of their 'we're actually old friends that just snipe at each other' moment, Gregoir and Irving both allow an abomination to escape the Circle.

[Hellion Rex]

That 'has to approve' nonsense is paper thin and is as true as the temperament of the KC. Don't believe me? Kirkwall. 

 

First Enchanter is a nice paper title though. Gives the mage in question an illusion of choice and power. That is until the KC strong arms him/her into compliance. 

 

I am not entirely sure this is the case with Irving though, giving his scheme with Uldred.

 

To what "scheme" are you referring?

[EmissaryofLies]

Which the devs have already repeatedly stated was an extreme to the insane degree of both factions, obviously not the norm then.

 

Glad I edited my post then with a source stating that this is not so certain. 

 

Perhaps the First Enchanter isn't as bullied as Orsino. But there's no reason to believe that the templars do not strong arm quite a few of them into making decisions that swing towards their persuasion. 

 

At least that would make the most amount of sense from the Templar perspective. Sure as hell how I'd operate. 

[TK514]

Greagoir ordered Jowan's execution on the spot when he caught them exiting the chamber; he isn't merely "an adviser". He's the one who permitted only seven mages to combat the Fifth Blight at Ostagar.

 

Given that both are completely within his rights as Knight-Commander, who is charged with the security of the Circle, protection of Mages. and the destruction of Maleficar, I don't see the problem with either decision.

[Hellion Rex]

Totally a tangent, but I've often thought it amusing that in the afterglow of their 'we're actually old friends that just snipe at each other' moment, Gregoir and Irving both allow an abomination to escape the Circle.

Who, Jowan?

[wcholcombe]

That 'has to approve' nonsense is paper thin and is as true as the temperament of the KC. Don't believe me? Kirkwall. 

 

First Enchanter is a nice paper title though. Gives the mage in question an illusion of choice and power. That is until the KC strong arms him/her into compliance. 

 

I am not entirely sure this is the case with Irving though, giving his scheme with Uldred.

 

 

"However, the extent to which the templars allow a first enchanter to exercise their powers varies from tower to tower." - as per the Wikia which references World of Thedas

In Ferelden it meant a great deal. The word of Irving alone was all that Gregoire needed to believe the tower was safe.  Gregoire wasn't putting a sword to Irving's throat and demanding he sign those.

 

In Kirkwall that was Meredith's faliing. She was so cought up in everything else that was going on, she didn't keep watch on what the templars under her command were doing. BTW, and this I always found funny, if Templars were illegally tranquiling mages(and yes I know they were) WHY ON THE MAKERS GREEN THEDAS didn't Orsino raise hell about it?  He has no problem butting heads with Meredith in front of Elthina.... 

[EmissaryofLies]

To what "scheme" are you referring?

 

I'm referencing 'Irving's Mistake' codex entry. 

 

It doesn't outright damn Irving but it for sure puts another nail in his hypocrisy coffin. 

[LobselVith8]

Who, Jowan?

 

Wynne.

[wcholcombe]

Who, Jowan?

No, Tarkin refers to Wynne. 

[Hellion Rex]

Wynne.

Meh. Wynne certainly had her act together more than most mages. I don't think there was any problem with Wynne as an abomination.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Laidlaw's podcast interview (where he revealed that the Vashoth was a racial option) gave me the impression that the player will end up deciding certain things about the protagonist, and that the rest of the game will react to certain issues that were chosen by the player. I'd have to imagine that so many factions being a war is one of the reasons why a peace conference might be assembled (based on the leaked survey), although I'm not sure why a Dalish, Dwarven, or Vashoth protagonist would be in attendance.

 

Hmmm... I suppose the end of "The Masked Empire" could explain the Dalish, while the Qunari situation may have the Andrastians call forth the Vashoth to establish an alliance? Perhaps the schism with the templars and the mages has a dwarven delegate attending the meeting because of the lyrium situation? Just some ideas on why they might attend. I suspect the player might be able to decide how the player views the situation as well, since Darrah mentioned that the player would shape the view of the Inquisitor, including how they viewed magic.

I hope we can have our Dalish elf choose to be Dalish only in name, like they were drug there by their parents as a child. 

[wcholcombe]

I'm referencing 'Irving's Mistake' codex entry. 

 

It doesn't outright damn Irving but it for sure puts another nail in his hypocrisy coffin. 

To me that just showed how Uldred manipulated Irving. Irving thought Uldred was helping with the tower, while in reallity Uldred was recruiting conspirators to his hostile takeover.

[LobselVith8]

I imagine the Vashoth is there as a mercenary/guard.

Spoiler

I imagine the dalish are there to bring some settlement of peace to the elven issues that begin to arise in ME

 

About the Vashoth, I haven't considered that. I suppose it's certainly possible; they can be quite imposing figures. It's not like we didn't encounter quite a few qunari mercenaries in Ferelden, after all.

 

Spoiler

About the elven protagonist, that could imply that the clans might be involved in a possible elven uprising, given Briala's intentions at the conclusion of "The Masked Empire", which would make me very happy.

[wcholcombe]

I'm not missing the point. I'm getting the impression from your posts that you think like Irving can disregard what the Chantry and the templars expect from him without repercussion, and it simply doesn't work that way. As Irving addresses, it's a matter of survival. It's also clear that despite being a moderate, Irving argues with Greagoir quite a bit. While Irving is the one who signed the Rite of Tranquility on Jowan, it's not something that he wanted to do. He didn't even know first-hand what evidence that Greagoir actually had on him. It's really not within his power to defy the Chantry or the templars.

If Irving truly believed someone didn't deserve to be tranquiled then he shouldn't give in.  Greagoir  by general concensus seems to be pretty even handed all in all and it isn't like he was going to execute Irving for not signing off on  a tranquility.  Sorry, I just find it winy to sit there and complain about the templars wanting to make us all tranquil when you are the one who apparently is signing off on tranquilities you don't agree with.