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[wcholcombe]

But humans supposedly didn't have magic, until they learned the secrets from the elves and then used that knowledge to destroy the ancient elvhen civilization. Pretty much all the lore of everywhere points to humans just being flat-out dicks.

 

Magic is just a tool, it doesn't get a say in how it's used. It was "the hubris of man" that brought the darkspawn.

Well, technically they used blood magic to get into both golden city and destroy arlathan which they learned from either Dumat or Demons depending on what source material you choose to believe.

[Master Warder Z_]

Well, technically they used blood magic to get into both golden city and destroy arlathan which they learned from either Dumat or Demons depending on what source material you choose to believe.

 

What if Dumat was the Great Demon Hawke mentioned! JA CUSE!

[Jedi Master of Orion]

But humans supposedly didn't have magic, until they learned the secrets from the elves and then used that knowledge to destroy the ancient elvhen civilization. Pretty much all the lore of everywhere points to humans just being flat-out dicks.

 

Magic is just a tool, it doesn't get a say in how it's used. It was "the hubris of man" that brought the darkspawn.

 

Yeah but that hubris could only result in the darkspawn because of using magic to enter the golden city. It would be possible for the same thing without being human but not without being a mage.

[LobselVith8]

Probably already mentioned and I apologize for bringing it back, but the CE/Dalish dynamic does fascinate me. 

Reasons it might work:

1. Us against them/enemy of my enemy is my friend mentality

Reasons it wouldn't work

1. CE are Andrastian and suspicious of mages

2.  Dalish at least claim to be the ruling class of the dales, I don't see CE seeding authority to the Dalish

3. Dalish aren't exactly going to give up their keepers

4. Prejudices: Dalish according to the lore look down on CE as weak and to be pitied and as people who  are not even true elves.  City elves vary between fear and respect of the dalish.

 

There were elves in Kirkwall who were willing to give up their Andrastian faith to convert to the Qun, and risk their lives in an attempt to take over the city to help the Arishok gain power. I can imagine some of them would be willing to overlook the religious differences of the clans and the presence of mages among the Dalish if it meant that they had the opportunity to be free of human rule.

 

I just don't see the Dalish and CEs being able to work together in a cooperative manner. What I think we will see occur is the CEs have their rebellion and the Dalish proceed down the path indicated in Masked Empire and the two basically occur independent of each other.

 

You think there will be two insurrections, one lead by the elves who have lived under human rule for generations in the Dales, and the other by the Dalish who may be in the kingdom due to the Arlathvhen? Are you thinking the elven Inquisitor would be able to support either one? I'm looking for a bit of clarification into what you think what be going on in the Dales.

[AresKeith]

What if Dumat was the Great Demon Hawke mentioned! JA CUSE!

 

I wouldn't even be upset if Dumat became something else after his supposed death

[wcholcombe]

There were elves in Kirkwall who were willing to give up their Andrastian faith to convert to the Qun, and risk their lives in an attempt to take over the city to help the Arishok gain power. I can imagine some of them would be willing to overlook the religious differences of the clans and the presence of mages among the Dalish if it meant that they had the opportunity to be free of human rule.

 

 

You think there will be two insurrections, one lead by the elves who have lived under human rule for generations in the Dales, and the other by the Dalish who may be in the kingdom due to the Arlathvhen? Are you thinking the elven Inquisitor would be able to support either one? I'm looking for a bit of clarification into what you think what be going on in the Dales.

I am sure there would be some who would, I just don't see it in large numbers.

 

My supposition is that the CEs in the dales will rebel in ME or DAI one, the idea of the eluvians presents two possible applicaitons.  One would be that the tearing of the vale/cataclysmic event at start of DAI is the Dalish making their move-I find this unlikely, but it keeps popping into my head whenever I try to pin down who could actually tear the vale like that, the other is that the Dalish are playing the long game with the Eluvians and don't really care about the dales and so are actually more interested in taking back wherever Arlathan was.  I won't deny the concept art of the ruins of Arlathan encouraged this but who knows.  I don't know that the dalish part will actually come into play in DAI other then possibly helping them with their eluvian research or something going on at the Arlathyhen.

 

Its all supposition on my part, I just don't see the CEs and Dalish being a united front.  Which is actually a good thing for your point of view. If my idea plays out, you will actually end up with two elven territories/nations the CE Dales and the Dalish Arlathan.  If they somehow presented a united front, I worry for the infighting that would result after they achieved independence.

 

Again, at the moment it is just where the magic balls in my head are settling when I can't sleep at night and I decide to ponder these things.   So its largely a logic exercise, but I generally keep coming to the same conclusions so there it is.

[LobselVith8]

I am sure there would be some who would, I just don't see it in large numbers.

 

My supposition is that the CEs in the dales will rebel in ME or DAI one, the idea of the eluvians presents two possible applicaitons.  One would be that the tearing of the vale/cataclysmic event at start of DAI is the Dalish making their move-I find this unlikely, but it keeps popping into my head whenever I try to pin down who could actually tear the vale like that, the other is that the Dalish are playing the long game with the Eluvians and don't really care about the dales and so are actually more interested in taking back wherever Arlathan was.  I won't deny the concept art of the ruins of Arlathan encouraged this but who knows.  I don't know that the dalish part will actually come into play in DAI other then possibly helping them with their eluvian research or something going on at the Arlathyhen.

 

Its all supposition on my part, I just don't see the CEs and Dalish being a united front.  Which is actually a good thing for your point of view. If my idea plays out, you will actually end up with two elven territories/nations the CE Dales and the Dalish Arlathan.  If they somehow presented a united front, I worry for the infighting that would result after they achieved independence.

 

Again, at the moment it is just where the magic balls in my head are settling when I can't sleep at night and I decide to ponder these things.   So its largely a logic exercise, but I generally keep coming to the same conclusions so there it is.

 

If you're curious to read about the endgame spoilers for "The Masked Empire":

Spoiler

Briala has control of the Eluvians. She suggested that she would also use the civil war to her advantage, in order to help free her people. It's possible that the ruins in the concept art might lead to other Eluvians, of course.

 

You think the sunken kingdom of Arlathan can be reclaimed as a habitable territory by the Dalish? Xil has suggested something similar in the past, and I'm curious to hear your take on this.

[wcholcombe]

If you're curious to read about the endgame spoilers for "The Masked Empire":

Spoiler

Briala has control of the Eluvians. She suggested that she would also use the civil war to her advantage, in order to help free her people. It's possible that the ruins in the concept art might lead to other Eluvians, of course.

 

You think the sunken kingdom of Arlathan can be reclaimed as a habitable territory by the Dalish? Xil has suggested something similar in the past, and I'm curious to hear your take on this.

Yeah I had read you post that before. I just don't think the dalish will be ready to move on it soon enough for DAI.  I think it could come up as a future plot point. Hopefully with better handling then the OGB has currently had.

 

I think the rebellion will be the CEs in DAI I think the Dalish plot line will be Arlathyhen and planning their future.  Lets be honest, it is kind of hard to have something as important as the Arlathyhen and a Dalish rebellion in one game.  They are two big plot points and should consequently be handled as such.

 

I do think that DA will go through some rebalancing.  I think the CE state in orlais, cause it doesn't sound like the CE elves want independence, just the ability to govern themselves, or an independent Dales plus a Dalish country/city state where Arlathan once existed would give some rebalancing to the DA world.  It has been hypothesized where Arlathan once was, I can't recall, but it isn't someplace we have been already. It is a lot easier to dramatically shift something in an area we haven't been then it would be in say Ferelden or Orlais which have a lot of lore and info about already and a restored Arlathan would be a pretty dramatic shift.

 

This idea of rebalancing is also why I think the Autonomous mages/circles isn't likely.  Liberalized circles and fair minded templars yes.  There is only so much change that can be implemented into the world without flat out breaking the setting.  The current state of the CEs and the Dalish being somewhat remedied presents a slew of plot points and interest and doesn't make the setting too like other settings.  The circles suddenly being free and autonomous removes one of the principle points that makes the setting unique.

[dragonflight288]

But humans supposedly didn't have magic, until they learned the secrets from the elves and then used that knowledge to destroy the ancient elvhen civilization. Pretty much all the lore of everywhere points to humans just being flat-out dicks.

 

Magic is just a tool, it doesn't get a say in how it's used. It was "the hubris of man" that brought the darkspawn.

 

So the fall of the entire dwarven empire can be blamed on humans by virtue of the hubris that taints humanity! 

[Hellion Rex]

So the fall of the entire dwarven empire can be blamed on humans by virtue of the hubris that taints humanity! 

Meh, the dwarves were doomed to fall from their own stupidity.

[dragonflight288]

Meh, the dwarves were doomed to fall from their own stupidity.

 

They weren't the ones who made the darkspawn. And once they fall, so too will all the surface. No lyrium for mages or templars, no lyrium for the Grey Warden joining, and it'll all be thanks to human hubris. 

[Shadow Fox]

They weren't the ones who made the darkspawn. And once they fall, so too will all the surface. No lyrium for mages or templars, no lyrium for the Grey Warden joining, and it'll all be thanks to human hubris. 

*Makes plans to move to Tamriel*

[Lulupab]

They weren't the ones who made the darkspawn. And once they fall, so too will all the surface. No lyrium for mages or templars, no lyrium for the Grey Warden joining, and it'll all be thanks to human hubris. 

You're absolutely right but the Dwarves really need to change or the won't survive for long. They need to stop ignoring Thedas and be more like them, getting casteless as warriors is a step in right direction. 

[dragonflight288]

You're absolutely right but the Dwarves really need to change or the won't survive for long. They need to stop ignoring Thedas and be more like them, getting casteless as warriors is a step in right direction. 

 

True.

[Master Warder Z_]

True.

 

Or you know, Import Mercenaries, or allow the surface to station more warriors there.

 

There are many things they can do, aligning with the Chantry would have allowed the Templars to station men and resources there. It would also have given the Chantry the right to call forth a march upon the Darkspawn if the need arose from the Dwarves.

 

The Chantry protects the Devout

[Lulupab]

Or you know, Import Mercenaries, or allow the surface to station more warriors there.

 

There are many things they can do, aligning with the Chantry would have allowed the Templars to station men and resources there. It would also have given the Chantry the right to call forth a march upon the Darkspawn if the need arose from the Dwarves.

 

The Chantry protects the Devout

 

Tevinter and Dwarves have aided each other countless times, during blights or no. The first Grey Wardens were from Tevinter and established the first blight alliance between Dwarves and tevinter. One can argue Dwarves highly boosted Tevinter's power during all these times and played a role in their survival in Andrastian war. I highly doubt the chantry would send Templars to a place without mages. Besides Chantry already paid them outrageous amounts of resources for their Lyrium and the chantry could not do jack **** about their relation with Tevinter because they need the Lyrium.

 

The surface Dwarves who live in Tevinter are regarded more highly than its none-mage citizens who have no record of giving birth to mage children.

[Master Warder Z_]

Tevinter and Dwarves have aided each other countless times, during blights or no. The first Grey Wardens were from Tevinter and established the first blight alliance between Dwarves and tevinter. One can argue Dwarves highly boosted Tevinter's power during all these times and played a role in their survival in Andrastian war. I highly doubt the chantry would send Templars to a place without mages. Besides Chantry already paid them outrageous amounts of resources for their Lyrium and the chantry could not do jack **** about their relation with Tevinter because they need the Lyrium.

 

The surface Dwarves who live in Tevinter are regarded more highly than its none-mage citizens who have no record of giving birth to mage children.

 

This has what to do with what i wrote exactly?
 

Seems you went on an Imperium Tangent.

[dragonflight288]

Or you know, Import Mercenaries, or allow the surface to station more warriors there.

 

There are many things they can do, aligning with the Chantry would have allowed the Templars to station men and resources there. It would also have given the Chantry the right to call forth a march upon the Darkspawn if the need arose from the Dwarves.

 

The Chantry protects the Devout

 

Aligning with the Chantry would mean that the Chantry would demand Orzammar give up all of its traditions and its entire culture. You won't find a single dwarf in Orzammar, save for a few casteless or members of the merchant caste willing to convert. It would be a bloodbath to even try. 

 

Personally, I don't see any reason why they shouldn't invite surfacers to send troops and such in exchange for lyrium, which is the most valuable ore in the world, or high quality enchantments, which the dwarves are the masters of. But the surface nations should consider helping the dwarves anyway. Without them, the chantry won't have templars at all, mages wouldn't have lyrium for rituals so all of them would have to be done with blood magic, and there would be no Grey Wardens. It may seem out of the way, but helping the dwarves helps safeguard the future of the surface. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Aligning with the Chantry would mean that the Chantry would demand Orzammar give up all of its traditions and its entire culture. You won't find a single dwarf in Orzammar, save for a few casteless or members of the merchant caste willing to convert. It would be a bloodbath to even try. 

 

But it would secure a permanent and long lasting alliance, allowing Chantry presence under the earth.

 

Don't act like it wouldn't be the unification needed to actually get real, material and fiscal support for the effort.

 

At the moment the Chantry merely needs the Dwarves for the Lyrium, if they became another holder of the Chant though, you actually have real motivation beyond mere economics to protect them, you have religious reasoning and that goes further with a church more often then money.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Brother Burkle seemed to be doing a good job gaining converts if the Assembly felt they needed to restrict their rights. And Rivian seems to be able have a Chantry presence without giving up it's culture.

[Steelcan]

They weren't the ones who made the darkspawn. And once they fall, so too will all the surface. No lyrium for mages or templars, no lyrium for the Grey Warden joining, and it'll all be thanks to human hubris. 

I think you mean that Orzammar will have some vacancies for a new population

 

[Master Warder Z_]

I think you mean that Orzammar will have some vacancies for a new population

 

 

I am still not unconvinced you cannot induce Lyrium resistance alchemically or through magic.

 

After all you can have magics that induce spell resistance and magical resistance, why not solid magic?

[Steelcan]

I am still not unconvinced you cannot induce Lyrium resistance alchemically or through magic.

 

After all you can have magics that induce spell resistance and magical resistance, why not solid magic?

Can't tranquil be used for manipulating lyrium?

[Master Warder Z_]

Can't tranquil be used for manipulating lyrium?

 

I am uncertain if that's occurring due to them being branded with Lyrium or the rite it self or their mental discipline, but i also don't know if applies to more then enchanting and say mining the rock.

[Hellion Rex]

I am uncertain if that's occurring due to them being branded with Lyrium or the rite it self or their mental discipline, but i also don't know if applies to more then enchanting and say mining the rock.

Both, I believe. Their Rite gives them resistance, their focus the ability to enchant things extremely well.