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[KaiserShep]

I've played the game 25 times and I'll still hear some new lines here and there.

 

I still hear new lines here and there as well. Some of them are passing references to previous lines from the previous game. One example is when you take Garrus on Mordin's loyalty mission, and when you enter the makeshift hospital on Tuchanka, Garrus makes a remark about it being fun to have a firefight in an antique shop. At some point in ME3, if you take Garrus with you to enough missions (I can't remember which one specifically. It might have been one of the DLC's), Shepard will mention Garrus' remark in ME2 during squad banter. I thought it was a nice touch.

[CrutchCricket]

It was Biowares attempt to make things more cinematic and flow more naturally instead of stopping the conversation after every single sentence so we can choose a new response. Instead the game makes the convo flow (with autodialogue) based on what type of character your Shepard has come to be. It's hit or miss. But I get what they were going for.

 

A lazy and ultimately unimaginative approach. Pauses in coversation happen both in real life and acting. Bioware shoots themselves in the foot by having almost all conversations be "talking heads" scenes- characters just stand there and talk at each other. Sure there's a gesture every now and then (shifting from one foot to another, scratching their head etc) but on the whole, they just stand there. Pauses can be masked by characters doing something: pacing, looking something up, looking as if they're actually considering how to respond (people don't always instantly know what to say even in real life convos).

 

They can also "cheat" by showing the dialogue wheel before the NPC has finished speaking. This happens sometimes but not enough I think.  If you examine real conversation you'll find that the moment when you get the idea of what the other person is saying happens way sooner than when they're finished speaking. That's because we think faster than we speak, obviously. In acting it's called the impulse- the moment you "get it" and are prompted to respond is when the "impulse" hits you and it occurs way before the line is finished speaking. Throwing up the dialogue wheel at that moment (which admittedly can vary depending on the individual and their familiarity with the context) will buy more time for the player to decide on the response. It'll still be a little jilted because the NPC line still has to finish and the decision is being made at the time the impulse to respond would've already prompted a reaction, but it'll make things a little tighter. It'd never be perfect because the dialogue isn't recorded playing off each other but it'll be passable.

[Mcfly616]

I'd wager there's a good portion of lines many players will never hear, between running past eavesdropping convos (some of the best writing in the game) never getting Mordin or Wrex or Thane killed pre-ME3, etc.

yup, after all these years I still haven't had the heart to off Wrex on Virmire. That'll probably be my next playthrough. (I have killed him in ME3, which was quite brutal)

[DeinonSlayer]

I remember on the Collector ship, the dialogue wheel with the option "The Collectors are Protheans!" appears on-screen before EDI says it... mini-spoiler...

[Mcfly616]

A lazy and ultimately unimaginative approach. Pauses in coversation happen both in real life and acting. Bioware shoots themselves in the foot by having almost all conversations be "talking heads" scenes- characters just stand there and talk at each other. Sure there's a gesture every now and then (shifting from one foot to another, scratching their head etc) but on the whole, they just stand there. Pauses can be masked by characters doing something: pacing, looking something up, looking as if they're actually considering how to respond (people don't always instantly know what to say even in real life convos).

They can also "cheat" by showing the dialogue wheel before the NPC has finished speaking. This happens sometimes but not enough I think. If you examine real conversation you'll find that the moment when you get the idea of what the other person is saying happens way sooner than when they're finished speaking. That's because we think faster than we speak, obviously. In acting it's called the impulse- the moment you "get it" and are prompted to respond is when the "impulse" hits you and it occurs way before the line is finished speaking. Throwing up the dialogue wheel at that moment (which admittedly can vary depending on the individual and their familiarity with the context) will buy more time for the player to decide on the response. It'll still be a little jilted because the NPC line still has to finish and the decision is being made at the time the impulse to respond would've already prompted a reaction, but it'll make things a little tighter. It'd never be perfect because the dialogue isn't recorded playing off each other but it'll be passable.

sorry, but pausing between every sentence to figure out what you're going to say next is not anything resembling a real life conversation. Real world conversations tend to have a natural flow. Yeah, obviously people walk around and do stuff while they're talking. Yeah, people think about what they heard or how they're going to respond....but literally pausing between each line of dialogue from the npc you're speaking to.....that's not natural at all.

I already said that I don't favor autodialogue. However, I don't necessarily hate it. I think they need to continue to find a way to tweak conversations in order to make them flow more naturally, whilst giving the player complete control once more.

[Darks1d3]

yup, after all these years I still haven't had the heart to off Wrex on Virmire. That'll probably be my next playthrough. (I have killed him in ME3, which was quite brutal)

You can just not recruit him in ME1 if you want to avoid killing him. Not having Wrex in the squad would be difficult, but not as difficult as killing him on Virmire(of course that depends on who you ask)

[Mcfly616]

Also, they definitely need to figure out a different way to do squadmate conversations and meet up's. No more of this "Liara is standing in the exact spot for the entire game everytime you go to the citadel, until you initiate a conversation with her."

They got the right idea with squadmates moving around the Normandy throughout the game. But with next gen hardware they most certainly need to take the next step in that approach. Seeing them in different places was a nice start, but they were still idle in those places. In the next game, I want to see them moving freely throughout the environment. Whether it be on the ship or at a hub.

[CrutchCricket]

sorry, but pausing between every sentence to figure out what you're going to say next is not anything resembling a real life conversation. Real world conversations tend to have a natural flow. Yeah, obviously people walk around and do stuff while they're talking. Yeah, people think about what they heard or how they're going to respond....but literally pausing between each line of dialogue from the npc you're speaking to.....that's not natural at all.

I already said that I don't favor autodialogue. However, I don't necessarily hate it. I think they need to continue to find a way to tweak conversations in order to make them flow more naturally, whilst giving the player complete control once more.

 

And I just suggested some ways they could do that, which involves changing some secondary direction as well. Honestly did you read my post at all? It's not the end-all but it's a start.

[CrutchCricket]

In the next game, I want to see them moving freely throughout the environment. Whether it be on the ship or at a hub.

 

The moving budget was spent on Saluting Guy.

[Bob from Accounting]

There are a lot of drawbacks to that.

 

You pretty much have to scrap cinematic conversations if the player has the ability to talk to them anywhere. Since there aren't that many characters, players are going to notice repeated animations (which are inevitable) pretty quickly. You have to consider what happens when squadmates bump into each other.

 

This is a lot of problems to consider. What does having the squadmates walking around in loops actually add to the experience?

[Mcfly616]

And I just suggested some ways they could do that, which involves changing some secondary direction as well. Honestly did you read my post at all? It's not the end-all but it's a start.

I read it. You had some good ideas other than the main one I tend to disagree with. You propose they go back to their old ways and just give us the dialogue wheel between each and every sentence, albeit a little earlier so we can have our response picked before the npc is finished speaking, and therefore the conversation would flow naturallly. I'm more of the mind they move forward and keep trying to find new ways to make it more fluid, not just going back to the old. Because that wasn't particularly fluid either.

[themikefest]

You can just not recruit him in ME1 if you want to avoid killing him. Not having Wrex in the squad would be difficult, but not as difficult as killing him on Virmire(of course that depends on who you ask)

If you kill him in ME3 and have Thane and Kirrahe alive in ME3, Kirrahe gives a nice speech on Earth

[Darks1d3]

If you kill him in ME3 and have Thane and Kirrahe alive in ME3, Kirrahe gives a nice speech on Earth

I heard about that, and it sucks I have to kill Wrex to hear that speech. There's always YouTube, but it's not the same.

[Mcfly616]

There are a lot of drawbacks to that.
 
You pretty much have to scrap cinematic conversations if the player has the ability to talk to them anywhere. Since there aren't that many characters, players are going to notice repeated animations (which are inevitable) pretty quickly.

why not? Just because the conversation is taking place in a different location, doesn't mean that conversation can't still play out.

It's not like the player needs to control the protagonists 'walking' and 'talking' at the same time. You choose the dialogue, but the game needs to make the characters move about more naturally, within whatever environment they happen to bump into eachother and start up that particular convo. No more of this idle standing or sitting with a few hand gestures and facial expressions thrown in.

[Mcfly616]

If you kill him in ME3 and have Thane and Kirrahe alive in ME3, Kirrahe gives a nice speech on Earth

yup....sick speech. Kirrahe is the man. Part of the reason I enjoy my low EMS playthrough so much. The F.O.B on Priority Earth has a few new faces and a different vibe imo.

[Bob from Accounting]

If you want that, you need to accept more localized conversations, not less.

 

Conversations that can take place anywhere (such as whenever you meet a character walking around the ship) means a cinematic conversation probably can't play. You can't have interaction with the environment if a conversation can take place anywhere. At least, not with any technology I'm currently aware of. You might be able to rig up something that uses simple sitting and leaning animations, but it would still be of considerably lower quality than many conversations in ME 2, much less later games.

[themikefest]

I heard about that, and it sucks I have to kill Wrex to hear that speech. There's always YouTube, but it's not the same.

I've done it several times doing specific playthroughs to get different outcomes.

 

If Karrahe is dead, the Salarian that gives the speech on Earth mentions the phrase "hold the line" in Kirrahe's honor.

[TheTurtle]

There are a lot of drawbacks to that.

You pretty much have to scrap cinematic conversations if the player has the ability to talk to them anywhere. Since there aren't that many characters, players are going to notice repeated animations (which are inevitable) pretty quickly.

It's not as if it hasn't been done before. A recent game that implemented this was GTA V . You could run into one of other playable characters anywhere on the map. This is also prevalent in Western RPG's such as Fable and Skyrim. Repeated animations aren't really that big of a deal, spend enough time with people and you'll notice they constantly recycle expressions.

Just because you can talk to people freely doesn't mean you have to eliminate cut scenes entirely.

[Mcfly616]

I heard about that, and it sucks I have to kill Wrex to hear that speech. There's always YouTube, but it's not the same.

everyone should kill Wrex in ME3 atleast once. (ofcourse, I approve of killing everybody atleast once lol)


Think of it like this: you and C-Sec are playing the role of the Columbian drug cartels henchmen, while Wrex is ScarFace.

[KaiserShep]

In the next game, I want to see them moving freely throughout the environment. Whether it be on the ship or at a hub.

 

Personally I don't really care about seeing them actually moving from one place to another, but I really like having variety in their locations and activities. Like, in ME3, I thought it was great to see the crew reposition themselves and mingle with one another. I think a great way to one-up that would be to have the protagonist actually participate in the dialogue or activity, like, if you happened to come across James and Kaidan playing cards, you could briefly join in and have a humorous conversation for a few lines or something.

[Bob from Accounting]

It's not as if it hasn't been done before. A recent game that implemented this was GTA V . You could run into one of other playable characters anywhere on the map. This is also prevalent in Western RPG's such as Fable and Skyrim. Repeated animations aren't really that big of a deal, spend enough time with people and you'll notice they constantly recycle expressions.

Just because you can talk to people freely doesn't mean you have to eliminate cut scenes entirely.

 

Who said anything about eliminating cut scenes or anything remotely suggesting that?

 

It hasn't been done before.

 

If characters are walking around the ship, there's an expectation for BioWare games that they will be able to speak and react to the player realistically. Plenty of games have had people walk around. Plenty of had simple conversations available. None had have complexly animated cinematics that include interaction with the environment.
 

[themikefest]

everyone should kill Wrex in ME3 atleast once. (ofcourse, I approve of killing everybody atleast once lol)


Think of it like this: you and C-Sec are playing the role of the Columbian drug cartels henchmen, while Wrex is ScarFace.

I agree. I've had the memorial wall filled with names(50) and names not on the wall(4) that were dead becusae the wall can only fit so many

[Mcfly616]

If you want that, you need to accept more localized conversations, not less.

Conversations that can take place anywhere (such as whenever you meet a character walking around the ship) means a cinematic conversation probably can't play. You can't have interaction with the environment if a conversation can take place anywhere. At least, not with any technology I'm currently aware of. You might be able to rig up something that uses simple sitting and leaning animations, but it would still be of considerably lower quality than many conversations in ME 2, much less later games.

not really. And I never suggested they interact directly with the environment. I simply suggested they should be moving throughout the environment instead of standing still the entire time. And yes, this is very much a possibility, as it's been increasingly prevalent in games throughout that last couple years.

[Bob from Accounting]

Yes. Really. That's reality. We don't have a magic wand to make characters react complexly with the environment with the push of a button. It takes animation. It takes work. Unless you have a suggestion as to how it could be done?

 

And no, it's not prevalent at all. There's not a single game that has done it.

[CrutchCricket]

I read it. You had some good ideas other than the main one I tend to disagree with. You propose they go back to their old ways and just give us the dialogue wheel between each and every sentence, albeit a little earlier so we can have our response picked before the npc is finished speaking, and therefore the conversation would flow naturallly. I'm more of the mind they move forward and keep trying to find new ways to make it more fluid, not just going back to the old. Because that wasn't particularly fluid either.

 

It doesn't have to be every single sentence, just as we don't have to cut every single pause. You have a variety of different ways you can mask the pause and you have some instances where a pause isn't appropriate at all. Part of being fluid and natural is not rigidly applying one tactic to every instance. There are many options.

 

-Get the characters moving more. Have a conversationg with say, Tali when she's actually working on something (fixing the engines or whatever) and you have a few spots where pauses are already there.

-Amp-up non-verbal reactions: one of the reasons the pauses are so jarring is that both Shepard and the NPC literally wait for you to make a choice. Blank faces, unmoving. This is where I suggested facial expressions like the PC is lost in thought on concentrating on something. If it's a tense, emotional situation, have the characters react nonverbally until a response is chosen. These are actually the worst times to have a "blank pause" Shepard just heard something that angered him, he turns around ready to deliver the smackdown and.... stares vacantly until you decide which flavor of pissed off he is. However it'd be a different story if he was visibly fuming/staring the NPC down. At that point you can even play those pauses for effect. For an opposite example, during a non-sex romance scene you can have the characters touching, moving closer together.. all that couple-y stuff. Non-verbal reactions (particularly emotional ones) may seem to carry the same sense of railroading autodialogue does, except you still have a chance to "cancel" the emotion when you do finally speak. Example: Shepard turns pissed off and ready to pounce, but if you pick the non-pissed off option he visibly forces himself to relax and calm down.

-Presenting the dialogue wheel earlier as I described above.

 

The whole idea of "naturalizing conversation" isn't necessarily to eliminate pauses but to react (or seemingly) react as soon as you feasibly get the idea of what's being said to you. And those reactions can be verbal or non-verbal.

 

Finally you can always put a timer on the wheel. You can mask the pauses all you want but if the game still waits for the player indefinitely at some point it's still going to break down. If the time elapses paragon or renegade score determines which choice is said. People can reload if they don't like a choice (they already do anyway).