@Von Uber
You can't assert someone's right to chose to depict something, then criticize them for simply making the choice. If the suggested remedy of the depiction is more nudity or sex, then obviously you're asking for a more explicit scene, even though you're not using the word "explicit".
Slasher movies have sex, or at least more sex and nudity than ME.
Also, the comparison of the depictions of graphic gore to sex is not really a valid argument for more sex or nudity in games.
Actually, it seems an "amorous embrace" isn't enough unless both parties are clearly naked.
I mean, I get that there's a desire to improve these scenes. They definitely can be done better. But the "answer" so many are looking for seems to be "Nudity!". I believe the scenes could be just as tasteful, if not more so, by simply doing a fade to black, or whatever.
Personally I don't care about seeing full frontal nudity, and really it's not something that fits with Mass Effect anyway, since that was never there in the beginning anyway. I'd prefer better designs in the way things are shot, so as to avoid nagging details. It just seems to be poor design to create a scene for a certain effect, but then cover things up when you can use the camera angles for that purpose. It just comes off as clumsy. Seeing a woman wearing a bra in the shower doesn't totally throw me out of the game like it might for others, but it really does look stupid.
@Von Uber
You can't assert someone's right to chose to depict something, then criticize them for simply making the choice. If the suggested remedy of the depiction is more nudity or sex, then obviously you're asking for a more explicit scene, even though you're not using the word "explicit".
Slasher movies have sex, or at least more sex and nudity than ME.
Also, the comparison of the depictions of graphic gore to sex is not really a valid argument for more sex or nudity in games.
Decapitate hordes --> suitable for all ages, or 12+
A single nipple --> ADULTS ONLY!!!
'murica
Its standard procedure in the U.S.A to train on CoD zombies.
I like this thread.
Bioware: we're making an role playing game for shooter players.
BSN: We demand more nudity in your game about saving the galaxy which included a small romance plot, because if you're going to have a small romance plot it needs to be as explicit as the violence otherwise its not a valid depiction, or if it does not include nude models who seamlessly and naturally obscure certain body parts it is not a well done PG-13 depiction. In addition, underwear in the shower is inconceivable. In addition, the love scenes for all possible love interests must be the same length. In addition, why are you reinforcing North American mass market norms on your game that is mass marketed to North America, Europe, and Asia - its not right damnit!
Decapitate hordes --> suitable for all ages, or 12+
A single nipple --> ADULTS ONLY!!!
'murica
Strawman arguement -->BSN!!!
Nudity isn't always necessary to make a scene powerful, but sometimes it is. No one is asking for explicit depictions of sex anyone still making that argument is either trolling or has very little reading comprehension. There is also the fact that Bioware is not opposed to nudity as demonstrated by ME1 and Liara's romance scene in ME3. Any argument saying Bioware doesn't want nudity in their games is weakened because of these two points.
Now I don't think Bioware is against nudity in their narrative. I think there are a couple of factors that lead to their new conservative nature.
1. The Fox news scandal- I think this scandal might have rattled the Bioware team. I mean they were getting GTA heat for a three 1 minute scenes anyone who isn't accustomed to that kind of press is going to be rattled.
You're giving Fox News waaaaay to much credi there. Let alone a news report several years old and was debunked even then.
2.Being acquired by EA- This ties in with the previous point. EA who already had a bad reputation (one that persist to this day) most likely didn't want a repeat of the ME1 scandal. EA tries to appeal to the masses. They aren't idiots they know that parents buy their kids M-rated games. So they stuck to what Americans are comfortable with, violence. This has already been stated before, but Americans don't care about violence as much as sex.
Bioware did fade-to-black long before EA. In fact, it's more the rule rather than the exception.
I think Americans apathy when it comes to violence is something that is generations old. The greatest generation grew up and fought during WWII, the baby boomers lived through both the Vietnam and Cold war. The next few generations including this one have grown up with video games and TV. Think about your favorite cartoon from childhood it most likely involved some form of physical comedy and that is the problem. Violence is a joke, but until recently sex has been somewhat of a taboo.
This is why I think Mass Effect has slowly backed of the ledge when it comes to nudity vs gore. While you and me would like games to be a little more adult in their presentation the fact is it won't happen until someone steps up and knocks America off it's purity pedestal. Sadly I don't think it will be Bioware I just hope that they get better at hiding it because if there is another scene like Traynor's then I'll be really disappointed.
I'm sorry, were you making a point here, or just bashing America?
You're giving Fox News waaaaay to much credi there. Let alone a news report several years old and was debunked even then.
Bioware did fade-to-black long before EA. In fact, it's more the rule rather than the exception.
I'm sorry, were you making a point here, or just bashing America?
1) Except it didn't. Bioware has always kept their love/sex scenes at a pg-13 level. That report changed nothing in that regard.
2) We are talking about a supposed need to increase nudity. I am pointing out (as my above point) that Bioware has never been big on nudity. Well befor ethat news report. If people are pushing for more Witcher-like portrayal of sex and nudity in Bioware games, I think (and hope) they'll be disappointed.
3) You're ascribing a reluctance to show nudity in games as immature and puritanical. Calling on someone to step up and "knock America off its purity pedastal"
If you're not bashing, I'd ask you to choose your words with more care.
1) Except it didn't. Bioware has always kept their love/sex scenes at a pg-13 level. That report changed nothing in that regard.
2) We are talking about a supposed need to increase nudity. I am pointing out (as my above point) that Bioware has never been big on nudity. Well befor ethat news report. If people are pushing for more Witcher-like portrayal of sex and nudity in Bioware games, I think (and hope) they'll be disappointed.
3) You're ascribing a reluctance to show nudity in games as immature and puritanical. Calling on someone to step up and "knock America off its purity pedastal"
If you're not bashing, I'd ask you to choose your words with more care.
If people are pushing for more Witcher-like portrayal of sex and nudity in Bioware games, I think (and hope) they'll be disappointed.
If you're not bashing, I'd ask you to choose your words with more care.
Why do you hope?
And what is wrong with critiscm of America? If that is her view, why should she be castigated for it? If she thinks America has a problem with nudity and hope that some day they'll get over it, what's wrong with that?
Why do you hope?
And what is wrong with critiscm of America? If that is her view, why should she be castigated for it? If she thinks America has a problem with nudity and hope that some day they'll get over it, what's wrong with that?
1) Because I find it even less mature than underwear-makeout sessions.
2) Nothing is wrong as such. But this is not the place to debate it.
1. My first point ties in with my second point a scandal is a scandal. Doesn't matter how big or small no one wants that on their back. Also if you want to think about the effects that it might have had then look at the trilogy. ME1 had nudity, after the scandal ME2 was devoid of it. Finally 5 years later it's back, but it's limited.
2.Maybe it's you who needs to work on wording because nowhere in your original reply did you bring that point up. If Bioware wasn't big on nudity why include even the slightest modicum of it in their games. And why the hell do you think nudity translates to explicit sex. When I talk about Traynor i'm talking about the obvious. Who takes a shower in their underwear that makes no rational sense.
3. Never did I say no nudity was immature so once again read my post before you comment. When talking about talking America off it's pedestal i'm referring to America looking at sex as taboo. Violence and nudity are both a natural part of human nature and until we as a country realize that nothing is going to change.
1) And look at the games that came before Mass Effect. All we see is a kiss and fade to black. Mass Effect backed off on nudity after Mass Effect, but was still pushing further than they had prior to ME1.
2) Yes the Traynor scene was silly. But the impression I get here is remove underwear=problem solved. Sorry, but no, I think the scene still would have remained silly. I find it pretty much the low point of the Traynor romance.
3) Then what are your thoughts on fade-to-black?
What Dalya wants to say, I think, is the following (which I said earlier already in my own weird little way):
It's ridiculous that, apparantly, if you're 13 years old that watching people get slaughtered en masse is ok, but seeing a nipple... OH GOD NO. You have to be at least 18 for that.
1) Because I find it even less mature than underwear-makeout sessions.
You find showing a sex scene with characters nude (and a not 'explicit' to use David's word of the year one at that) to be less mature than having a nudge-nudge wink wink you know what's going on here bit of titillation?
1) And look at the games that came before Mass Effect. All we see is a kiss and fade to black. Mass Effect backed off on nudity after Mass Effect, but was still pushing further than they had prior to ME1.
2) Yes the Traynor scene was silly. But the impression I get here is remove underwear=problem solved. Sorry, but no, I think the scene still would have remained silly. I find it pretty much the low point of the Traynor romance.
3) Then what are your thoughts on fade-to-black?
Even the in 1984 movie "The Terminator" the love scene with Michael Biehn and Linda Hamilton was one of the best love scenes I've seen. I think something like that would be appropriate for an M rated RPG. They used to be on Youtube, but Youtube took all of them down, so you'll have to watch the movie to see for yourself.
And what is wrong with critiscm of America? If that is her view, why should she be castigated for it? If she thinks America has a problem with nudity and hope that some day they'll get over it, what's wrong with that?
"Stop in the name of American squeamishness!" ~Chief Clancy Wiggum
Actually, it seems an "amorous embrace" isn't enough unless both parties are clearly naked.
I mean, I get that there's a desire to improve these scenes. They definitely can be done better. But the "answer" so many are looking for seems to be "Nudity!". I believe the scenes could be just as tasteful, if not more so, by simply doing a fade to black, or whatever.
Now you know that's not true. Let's take a scene from DA2 where no one disrobes at all: Isabela. Basically you get the "dagger strip" and brief foreplay then fade to black, and then you see Isabela seeming to put her clothes back on before talking to Hawke. Now that was a scene done right, and it showed nothing at all. I would bet that if every character got the Liara treatment, this thread wouldn't exist.
“Okay, folks, show’s over. Nothing to see here, show’s – oh my God, a horrible plane crash! Hey everybody, get a load of this flaming wreckage! Come on, crowd around. Crowd around, don’t be shy, crowd around.” – Chief Wiggum
Ah the Simpsons.
Even the in 1984 movie "The Terminator" the love scene with Michael Biehn and Linda Hamilton was one of the best love scenes I've seen. I think something like that would be appropriate for an M rated RPG. They used to be on Youtube, but Youtube took all of them down, so you'll have to watch the movie to see for yourself.
I'd go with the pool scene from the movie Oblivion, for one of the best romance scenes in a Sci Fi movie.
The key is that if there is going to be nudity, it should feel natural and not be gratuitous. I'd argue that was the case with the Mass Effect 1 romance scenes as well, and that perhaps ironically, the lingering shot of the Consort or Miranda's clothed backsides, were far more gratuitous and juvenile.
Let me put it this way...
Good:
-Liara ME1
-Kaidan ME1
-Ashley ME1
-Liara ME2 (LOTSB)
-Thane ME2
-Garrus ME2
-Jack ME2 (Renegade in her quarters)
-Tali ME2
-Kaidan ME3
-Liara ME3
-Miranda ME3
-Jack ME3
-Thane ME3 (I guess lol)
-Tali ME3 (I'd imagine she has to keep the suit largely on, maybe)
-Garrus ME3
Bad:
-Miranda ME2
-Jacob ME2
-Jack ME2 (Para/Rene final bit)
-Ashley ME3
-Steve ME3 (yeah just pan away *entirely*, and not in a fluid way like other romances)
-Samantha ME3 (OH GOD THIS)
(Not getting into Citadel content because I don't feel like it)
(And I actually understand male characters wearing briefs, especially given graphical limitations lol; fully clothed has to make sense for the scene though)
(And I'm assuming MaleShep when possible here. If ME3 FemShep is involved, yeah, I find the bra super super silly. "Let me just put this back on for the camera...")
To me, it's not necessarily all about nudity or no nudity, explicit or not explicit. It's about appropriate and stylistically smart representation of actions and behaviors. When it gets to a comical, nonsensical, or seemingly stupid level, I can't like it.
I think Mass Effect romances, and heck, Bioware romances are mostly fine. However, each game has its issues. Sometimes a scene really seems to call for more nudity, else it goes wrong. Sometimes the use of any nudity feels pathetic to the scene.
It's like Bioware wants to pander to arousal in a silly way, without then showing natural nudity when that scene would make more sense with it. For example, I very much like Miranda's sex scene in ME3 compared to ME2. But no sex happened on screen? Yes. And that's quite fine. And then Miranda became one of my favorite romances in Citadel DLC, for using smarter script, clothing states, use of the camera, etc.
It's the whole mix of taste, realism, logic, emotion, eroticism, drama, and a bunch of other things.
Both the Consort and ME2 Miranda showed some of the worst of Bioware romance scenes. And ME2 Jack's (final sex not quickie) state of dress (yes I know she doesn't wear a lot to begin with) had SEVERAL or my RL friends confused. And again, in the end its not the state of dress, it's the seeming incapability of Bioware to show the scene as it probably would have actually happened without restrictions.
I'd go with the pool scene from the movie Oblivion, for one of the best romance scenes in a Sci Fi movie.
Man, that glass pool, heck the entire Tower 49 was like a dreamhouse in the sky fit for Tron.
Both the Consort and ME2 Miranda showed some of the worst of Bioware romance scenes.
Worse for you maybe, but I'll bet Jacob and Thane got quite the show XD
You find showing a sex scene with characters nude (and a not 'explicit' to use David's word of the year one at that) to be less mature than having a nudge-nudge wink wink you know what's going on here bit of titillation?
Yes.
But keep in mind I'm not calling either "mature". It's more a degree of immaturity.
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